I reject the creeds

[Thekla]

yeah. I know. But the scriptures themselves preexist the creeds.

well, except the one/s quoted in scripture ...

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Which verision of the filoque is found in the bible???

Where is the word Trinity in the Bible? Or how about Hymnal? Where is that in the Bible? or Sunday Morning Worship starts at 10 -- where is that in the Bible? I said each element can be found in the Bible, which is true. In FACT when CF used the Creed, they had the scripture references next to each line.

NO the creed did NOT exist before the written word of God.

Read my posts before you twist my words. I said the Canon was created after the Creed, not the Creed before the written Word of God.

There is a differance.

Jack did say it was a part of Christianity as the bible is...The creeds mean nothing to anyone outside of the 2 tradition based denominations.

Really? I dunno, the Anglicans and Lutherans think it's pretty swell, so do the Methodists and the Presbyterians. Why gosh, that's almost all of mainstream Christendom, isn't it?

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

I would like to present to you references from Holy Scripture to the Nicene-Creed:

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)​

 

[Uphill Battle]

And? Doesn't change the validity of the Creed.

I don't remember questioning the "validity" of the Creed.

That was part of their intent; to drill out heresy. As I said, they are a litmus test of sorts. Is it critical to recite them daily? No. What is critical is to believe in what it says.

so then, we are justified in using it as a sledgehammer to make sure we're tapping people in line.

let me put it this way. I don't pay much attention to the creed itself. I don't disagree with anything in it (other than the arguments that arise between catholic and Catholic, and the baptism of spirit/water from time to time) but it really plays no part in my spiritual life. The scriptures contain everything the creed dictate, so I just stick with the source material.

many, and specifically some newer Christians, who are not indoctrinated with the creed, have much idea about it at all. They fall into discussion with a longer standing believer, who questions their adherence to the Creed as that "litmus test" you're talkng about.

it doesn't serve any purpose other than to confound, and belittle the fledgling faith of someone who hasn't had the creed pumped at them from word one... It becomes absolutely worthless, because of it's use.

Who's making you sign on a dotted line?

nobody. It's hyperbole.

When we sing the Creed during the Liturgy or during our Morning prayers, we sing it as an affirmation of what we believe in. It is a refutal of heresy and a confirmation of what is true. There is an expression "as we pray, so we believe." That is why we recite the Creed. To affirm our belief in these truths.

matches exactly with my points above. Constant indoctrination of the creed would lead to it's importance. the people I was talking about however, are not in that place, and are sometimes run roughshod because of it.

I guess my question to you is "Why does the Creed bother you?"

It, in itself, doesn't. I spend the greater part of my life not paying any attention to it at all.

well, except the one/s quoted in scripture ...

the compilation of the creed, Thekla, come now.

 

[Philothei]

technically, I suppose. I am refering to the actual, formal creeds.

that is a cope out ....if you agree on seperate statements from the Creed it is then accepting partially the creeds... You cannot do that though... As accepting parts is still part of the creed... Thus you accept it partially. No one says that accepting it partially is not believing in the creed... You still do.

 

[Philothei]

Even if it is "I believe in one God" that is a creed a statement of faith.. or you would not be there worshiping God in the church at the first place Even if you do not attend Church still you "believe" that by itself is a form of a statement that exists in the creed. If you do not "believe" you would not call yourself a Christian at all...

 

[nephilimiyr]

It suggests a bit more here...look
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Ok, but where do they say specifically that the Muslims are factored into salvation? I don't think by what you just quoted pins down what you are wanting to say.

Amen to the massive conversions...

I wouldn't use the term "massive". I wish I could though.

 

[Uphill Battle]

that is a cope out ....if you agree on seperate statements from the Creed it is then accepting partially the creeds... You cannot do that though... As accepting parts is still part of the creed... Thus you accept it partially. No one says that accepting it partially is not believing in the creed... You still do.

it is abundantly clear you didn't read through the thread.

Even if it is "I believe in one God" that is a creed a statement of faith.. or you would not be there worshiping God in the church at the first place Even if you do not attend Church still you "believe" that by itself is a form of a statement that exists in the creed. If you do not "believe" you would not call yourself a Christian at all...

this point was addressed. You would have noticed it, if you read.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

let me put it this way. I don't pay much attention to the creed itself. I don't disagree with anything in it (other than the arguments that arise between catholic and Catholic, and the baptism of spirit/water from time to time) but it really plays no part in my spiritual life. The scriptures contain everything the creed dictate, so I just stick with the source material.

many, and specifically some newer Christians, who are not indoctrinated with the creed, have much idea about it at all. They fall into discussion with a longer standing believer, who questions their adherence to the Creed as that "litmus test" you're talkng about.

it doesn't serve any purpose other than to confound, and belittle the fledgling faith of someone who hasn't had the creed pumped at them from word one... It becomes absolutely worthless, because of it's use.

Okay, NOW I see where you're coming from.

First of all, speaking for myself, I've never used the Nicene Creed outside of prayer/Liturgical use or specific discussion about the Nicene Creed (such as the one we are having here.)

While I can't speak for how newcomers are treated in all churches, I will speak for the church I am familiar with, that being the Orthodox Church.

In the Orthodox Church, when someone expresses interest about joining the Orthodox Church, they generally either enroll in a Newcomers class that is taught by the priest, or arrange for private lessons with the priest. During these classes, the priest will explain what the Nicene Creed is and such. In addition to the Creed, the Newcomer or "Catachumen" as we call them, will learn about the theology and all the beliefs associated with the Orthodox Church.

Oh, and in case you were wondering, we don't ask people to recite the Creed at the door to gain entry into the Temple.

The only time I could see the Creed coming up in modern day discussion is if a person of a non-Christian faith, say a Hindu or Muslim were to ask me what I believed as a Christian, the Creed would be a good place to start. It's simple, succint, and opens the doors to more discussion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)

Ahh. But the first time Almighty is used is in Gene 17:1.
It is shown 9 times in the NT but only 1 time outside of Revelation......Kewl!!

Genesis 17:1 And Abram is becoming son of 90 year and nine years and YHWH is appearing to Abram and is saying to him: "I El Shadday walk thee! to faces of Me and become thee! flawless" [Used 48 times in OC...........31 times in Job

2 Corin 6:18 And I shall be to ye as a father, and ye shall be to Me as sons and daughters is saying Lord Almighty/panto-kratwr <3841>.

Reve 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega [*beggining and end] is saying Lord, the God, the One-being and the One-was and the One-coming, the Almighty/panto-kratwr <3841>.[2 corin 6:18]

Last time used:

Reve 21:22 And sanctuary not I saw in Her, for the Lord the God the Almighty/pantokratwr <3841> sanctuary of Her is and the lambkin.

[Used 10 times. 9 Times in Revelation, and 2 Corin 6:18].
3841. pantokrator pan-tok-rat'-ore from 3956 and 2904; the all-ruling, i.e. God (as absolute and universal sovereign):--Almighty, Omnipotent.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Okay, NOW I see where you're coming from.

love those AHA moments.

First of all, speaking for myself, I've never used the Nicene Creed outside of prayer/Liturgical use or specific discussion about the Nicene Creed (such as the one we are having here.)

good to hear.

While I can't speak for how newcomers are treated in all churches, I will speak for the church I am familiar with, that being the Orthodox Church.

In the Orthodox Church, when someone expresses interest about joining the Orthodox Church, they generally either enroll in a Newcomers class that is taught by the priest, or arrange for private lessons with the priest. During these classes, the priest will explain what the Nicene Creed is and such. In addition to the Creed, the Newcomer or "Catachumen" as we call them, will learn about the theology and all the beliefs associated with the Orthodox Church.

yes, I know. this is a specific bone of contention that I have with the Orthodox church, but one I'm sure you don't want to get in to, and is wildly off topic for this thread anyways.

 

[sunlover1]

Okay, NOW I see where you're coming from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWoDwxyKUE

 

[nephilimiyr]

that is a cope out ....if you agree on seperate statements from the Creed it is then accepting partially the creeds... You cannot do that though... As accepting parts is still part of the creed... Thus you accept it partially. No one says that accepting it partially is not believing in the creed... You still do.

No it's not a cope out, you are totally misunderstanding his point.

He is not talking about the truth in a creed or whether you or him agree with it or not. The way I read the OP is He's talking about the saving power behind a creed.

"Not because I think there is neccessarily inaccurate statments in any particular creed, but because I don't believe that a creed has really anything to do with whether or not you are redeemed by Christ."

He is talking about formal creeds. Formal creeds have the purpose of stating what a particular church, organization, or group of people believe. The purpose of creeds is to make a statement of faith of what they, the church, the organization, or group believes but that does not mean all people within that church, organization, or group is redeemed by Christ.

And people may recite a particular creed but that doesn't mean they truely believe it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

No it's not a cope out, you are totally misunderstanding his point.

He is not talking about the truth in a creed or whether you or him agree with it or not. The way I read the OP is He's talking about the saving power behind a creed.

"Not because I think there is neccessarily inaccurate statments in any particular creed, but because I don't believe that a creed has really anything to do with whether or not you are redeemed by Christ."

He is talking about formal creeds. Formal creeds have the purpose of stating what a particular church, organization, or group of people believe. The purpose of creeds is to make a statement of faith of what they, the church, the organization, or group believes but that does not mean all people within that church, organization, or group is redeemed by Christ.

or vice versa.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

yes, I know. this is a specific bone of contention that I have with the Orthodox church, but one I'm sure you don't want to get in to, and is wildly off topic for this thread anyways.

If you do ever want to discuss it, feel free to roam over to St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian part of TAW and start a thread. We'll be happy to help!

 

[nephilimiyr]

[/font]




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWoDwxyKUE

Good song, good points by HandmaidenOfGod, and good points by all, but now lets discuss what UpHill is really saying.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

How come they didn't use Mark 12:29?
This is one of the verses the Muslims and Jews like to use to show JESUS is not YHWH

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear-thou! Yisra'el YHWH Elohiym of us YHWH one. [Mark 12:29]

Mark 12:29 The yet JESUS answered him "that first of all *the commandments* 'be thou hearing! Israel, LORD God of us, LORD one is'". [Deut 6:4]

Textus Rec.) Mark 12:29 o de ihsouV apekriqh autw oti prwth paswn twn entolwn akoue israhl kurioV o qeoV hmwn kurioV eiV estin

W-H ) Mark 12:29 apekriqh ** o ihsouV ***** oti prwth estin *** ******** akoue israhl kurioV o qeoV hmwn kurioV eiV estin

NKJV) Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one'".

NASB) Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `HEAR, O ISRAEL ! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

 

[sunlover1]

Good song, good points by HandmaidenOfGod, and good points by all, but now lets discuss what UpHill is really saying.

If you noticed earlier in the thread, I agree with UB.
He's saying that while he is in agreement with the content
of the creed(s), he doesnt feel anyone should have to
recite such like some sort of club.

But I may have erred in interpreting what he said.

Yeah, it IS a cool song.

 

[Thekla]

Well, if I understand the concern - no, the creed won't "save" anyone. Nor will scripture. Or worship. Or repentance. But these things can, if we will let them, "work the soil of the heart".

Only Christ saves.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, if I understand the concern - no, the creed won't "save" anyone. Nor will scripture. Or worship. Or repentance. But these things can, if we will let them, "work the soil of the heart".

Only Christ saves.

Work the soil with the plow of the Spirit......

Genesis 2:7 And YHWH 'Elohiym is forming the 'adam with soil/dust/06083 `aphar from the ground/0127 'adamah, and He is blowing in nostrils of him breath of lives, and the 'adam is becoming to soul of living.

1 corin 15:47 The first man out of the ground/ghV <1093>, dust/soil/coikoV <5517>, the second Man [Lord] out of heaven. 48 As such, the soilish-one/coikoV <5517> those-thus also those soilish/coikoi <5517>, as-such the heavenly those being of the heavenlies 49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish-one/coikou <5517> , we shall be wearing also the image of the heavenly