The Papacy

[sunlover1]

Martin Luther seem to contradict himself through out his life.

When he was Catholic he praised the Catholic Church and it's Pope. But when he excommunicated himself he said about the opposite. When Martin decided to make his own translation and canon of scripture he removed books and then later he added them back. And there were other times that Martin Luther was making his voise heard on something and then later he contradicted himself. I guess in the USA if he were running for President then like Kerry he may be called a flip flop?

Yes, contradictions.
IMO they abound in every denomination, but most just disregard their own.
Strange, I know. Wonder what the cause of that is.
Should be simple enough to figure out.

 

[Rick Otto]

when he excommunicated himself

lol

 

[MamaZ]

We have the Church to guide us. Why would He establish a Church? Why have Bishops? Why have clergy?

The church is the body of Christ. A body does not guide itself. The head tells the body what needs to be done. What we have to guide is is Gods word and the HOLY SPIRIT. This is why Jesus said I have need to go away so that the HOLY SPIRIT can come. Not a man claiming to be vicar. He left us His word and Gave us His Spirit. He opened our eyes so that we may undestand His scriptures. He indwells each and every one of His sheep with His Spirit and power.

 

[MamaZ]

Peter is the Pope. It would not matter if the Pope was Bishop of London, Timbuktu or Rome. The Pope has the supremacy, not any geographical location.

Peter was an Apostle and fellow elder. Never mentions pope in scripture.

 

[MamaZ]

Not true and not true. Christ singled Peter out to give to him special authority.
Need I re quote the scripture?
The letter of Clement?
The First Council at Jerusalem?



So you expect Christ to say "Hey Peter, you're the chief guy."?
When He already made it clear He was singling Peter out as especially important?

Actually Jesus did not single Peter out. Peter spoke first. Jesus told Him that He would not even know who He was unless it was granted to Peter by the father. Then He called Simon small moveable pebble. Which we see He was in scripture. But Christ is the bedrock of our salvation and this is what the Church is built on. Christ the Lord and not on Peter a man.

 

[MamaZ]

When Jesus asked all the Aposlte who people say Jesus is it was Peter alone who was given the answer by God. It was not John the Beloved or any other Apostle. And in JOHN 17 we read that the Father is involved in bringing people to Jesus. So in fact Peter makes a unique and first statement of Jesus being God. This is seen as God choosing Peter to be the one to bear the Keys of Heaven and Hell which will allow Peter to be the Vicar of Christ and to hold a dynastic office.

The very keys to the kingdom of Heaven is the Preaching of the Gospel. What is the Gospel? Not Peter. Christ and Him crucified and risen.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The church is the body of Christ. A body does not guide itself. The head tells the body what needs to be done. What we have to guide is is Gods word and the HOLY SPIRIT. This is why Jesus said I have need to go away so that the HOLY SPIRIT can come. Not a man claiming to be vicar. He left us His word and Gave us His Spirit. He opened our eyes so that we may undestand His scriptures. He indwells each and every one of His sheep with His Spirit and power.

And if something happens to a nerve cluster that sends the signals to a part of the body then that part of the body will not respond to the head. My oldest has Myastengravis and so I realize a little about how chemicals generated from electrical signals in the body cause our muscles to respond and even with the head on the body there are parts that are responsible for all the body receiving information from the head and being able to respond. So if we look at your model scientifically in our theology then we can see how bishops can be a part of the body that allows the rest of us to know the Head's commands.

 

[sunlover1]

Acts 10
34 Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.
35 In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right.
36 This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel—that there is
peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
​

 

[simonthezealot]

Peter is the Pope. It would not matter if the Pope was Bishop of London, Timbuktu or Rome. The Pope has the supremacy, not any geographical location.

In Romes false declaration from Vatican 1 it clearly seems to indictate that Rome is integral, they don't say wherever...Nice try anyway, TERRY!


For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood.

 

[Sphinx777]

In Romes false declaration from Vatican 1 it clearly seems to indictate that Rome is integral, they don't say wherever...Nice try anyway, TERRY!


For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood.

The First Vatican Council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the Apostolic Letter Aeterni Patris of June 29, 1868. The first session was held in Saint Peter's Basilica on December 8, 1869. It was the 20th ecumenical council of the Catholic Church. Nearly 800 church leaders attended. They met ninety-three times between December 8, 1869 and September 1, 1870.

The Pope's two primary purposes were to define the dogma of Papal Infallibility and to obtain confirmation of the position he had taken in his Syllabus of Errors (1864), condemning a wide range of positions associated with rationalism, liberalism, and materialism.

In the three sessions, there was discussion and approval of only two constitutions: Dei Filius, the Dogmatic Constitution On The Catholic Faith (which defined, among other things, the sense in which Catholics believe the Bible is inspired by God) and Pastor Aeternus, the First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, dealing with papal primacy and infallibility.

The definition of papal infallibility was controversial, not because many did not believe the pope to be infallible when defining dogma, but because many who did so believe did not think it prudent to define the doctrine formally. John Henry Newman, for instance, thought such a formal definition might push away potential converts. Some feared it might lead to renewed suspicion of Catholics as having a foreign allegiance. This view was taken by two-thirds of the bishops from the United States and many from France and Germany.

About 60 members of the council effectively abstained by leaving Rome the day before the vote. The voting took place to the accompaniment of a thunderstorm, of which "nothing approaching it's solemn splendour could have been arranged". Archbishop Antonio María Claret y Clará, confessor to the Spanish royal court and founder of the Claretians (Claretian Missionaries), strongly condemned the "blasphemies and heresies uttered on the floor of this Council," and was one of the strong defenders on the issue of papal infallibility and the primacy of the See of Rome. He was the only member of the council to be canonized as saint (beatified in 1934 and canonized by Pope Pius XII in 1950). He died in a Cistercian monastery in Fontfroide, France, in October 24, 1870. The discussion and approval of the constitution gave rise to serious controversies which led to the withdrawal from the church of the Old Catholics.

The outbreak of the Franco-Prussian War interrupted the council. It was suspended following the entry of the Italian Army in Rome, the so-called capture of Rome, and never resumed. It was not officially closed until decades later in 1960 by Pope John XXIII, when it was formally brought to an end as part of the preparations for the Second Vatican Council. The First Vatican Council marked the triumph of the ultramontanist movement, which supported a central Vatican-based government of the Church. An increasing awareness of their own identity among Roman Catholics worldwide was detected, and the numbers of converts to Catholicism as well as the numbers of vocations to the religious and priestly life increased, along with clearly pro-Catholic political activity of Catholics in their native countries. Along with this, a stronger involvement of laymen in the outward working of the Catholic Church evolved, and the council would indirectly lead to the stimulation of the Liturgical Movement, which would particularly flourish under Pope Pius X.

 

[spiritman]

Peter is the Pope. It would not matter if the Pope was Bishop of London, Timbuktu or Rome. The Pope has the supremacy, not any geographical location.

If he doesn't have supremacy over any region then what does he have supremacy over?

Your pope has not been granted any kind of supremacy over the Body of Christ according to the Word of God. The position of pope is a fabricated hierarchy without any Biblical foundation.

supremacy: noun, power to dominate or defeat. (define.com)

This is contrary to the Word of God. Its anti-scripture. Jesus taught His disciples not to be like the ungodly.

Mr 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

2634 katakurieuw katakurieuo kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o
from 2596 and 2961; TDNT-3:1098,486; v
AV-exercise dominion over 1, overcome 1, be lord over 1, exercise lordship over 1; 4
1) to bring under one's power, to subject one's self, to subdue, master
2) to hold in subjection, to be master of, exercise lordship over

Do you think your statement might be offensive to every non-catholic. But more importantly is it offensive to God. Jesus didn't give anyone supremacy over His church.

Peter never carried the title of pope. The position was created by men and they took Peter’s name out of scripture and called him a pope.

Peter like all apostles were assigned geographical areas where they could minister the Gospel. He didn’t have a world wide ministry.

Peter’s assigned ministry was to the Jews. He was a shepherd in Jerusalem. Paul’s assigned ministry was to the gentiles. An apostle is one that is appointed or sent to a specific area to minister. Paul did minister to the Jews whenever he had a chance but they were not his primary ministry according to his apostleship. He didn’t hang out in Jerusalem like Peter, James, and John.

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Ga 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, ( Peter) and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. KJV

Peter was appointed to minister to the Jews. Paul to the gentiles. But even Paul and Barnabas who were apostles could not go and minister in any area they wanted to.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

The apostles also understood that they were not to build a foundation on another apostles work. Signifying assigned territories of ministry.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

The apostles of the Lord knew their assignment and areas of ministry. They also understood their measure of rule. There is no such thing as a world wide ministry given to one man. Jesus is the head of the church and He assigns His apostles and sends them where He wants them to minister. Jesus doesn’t send anyone anywhere to minister that is not born again and has not been first discipled by Him. Jesus is still discipling men today by His Spirit.

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure (portion measured off) of the rule (fixed space) which God hath distributed (divided) to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men’s labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule (the province assigned one) abundantly, KJV

13 But we will not boast beyond measure, but according to measure of the rule which the God of measure distributed to us, to reach even to you.
14 For we do not overstretch ourselves as if not reaching to you, for we also came to you in the gospel of Christ,
15 not boasting beyond measure in the labors of others, but having hope that the growing faith among you will be made larger according to our rule, to overflowing, LITV

2Co 10:13 But we will not boast beyond limits, but according to the measure of the sphere of influence which God assigned us as a measure, to reach even as far as you.
2Co 10:14 For we are not overextending ourselves, as though our authority did not reach to you, for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ;
2Co 10:15 not boasting beyond the limits in the labors of others, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you according to our sphere of influence, EMTV

The supremacy claim is false according to God's Word and should be rejected by every Christian.

 

[simonthezealot]

Tomorrow when i have more time my intention is to expose the many historical fallacies listed in this thread.

 

[sunlover1]

Tomorrow when i have more time my intention is to expose the many historical fallacies listed in this thread.

Alrighty then.
Good luck with that btw.

 

[MamaZ]

And if something happens to a nerve cluster that sends the signals to a part of the body then that part of the body will not respond to the head. My oldest has Myastengravis and so I realize a little about how chemicals generated from electrical signals in the body cause our muscles to respond and even with the head on the body there are parts that are responsible for all the body receiving information from the head and being able to respond. So if we look at your model scientifically in our theology then we can see how bishops can be a part of the body that allows the rest of us to know the Head's commands.

We are connected to the Head by the Holy Spirit. Not through the bishops. Christs body is not connected through nerves. For Christ body is a Spiritual Body therefore gets its signal through the Holy Spirit and the word. Science has nothing to do with Christs body. Science is mans way of trying to explain what Creator God has created..

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Tomorrow when i have more time my intention is to expose the many historical fallacies listed in this thread.

* according to Simon.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

We are connected to the Head by the Holy Spirit. Not through the bishops. Christs body is not connected through nerves. For Christ body is a Spiritual Body therefore gets its signal through the Holy Spirit and the word. Science has nothing to do with Christs body. Science is mans way of trying to explain what Creator God has created..

Please start a thread on the biological theology on Christ and His church. It should prove interesting.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

If he doesn't have supremacy over any region then what does he have supremacy over?

The Church.

 

[MamaZ]

The Church.

There is only one that has supremacy over the church and that Be Christ. No man has this title. For there is only one Head of the Church. All the others are just His Body all on even ground through the cross with different gifts and callings. The Apostles were sent ones to preach the gospel to the regions that God called them to..

 

[Thekla]

The term "episkopos" was a secular term borrowed by Christians. The term had been in use since at least the time of Homer. This term denotes an 'overseer whose role is to ensure compliance with the king and also show relationship of the region with the king'. Under Alexander the Great, the episkopos was especially used of those who fulfilled this role (described above) in newly conquered regions. The use of the term episkopos is interesting, as here too, areas were "newly conquered for Christ" in a spiritual (not military) sense - the Churches served by the episkopos were made up of those who acknowledge the victory of Christ, their true King.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

There is only one that has supremacy over the church and that Be Christ. No man has this title. For there is only one Head of the Church. All the others are just His Body all on even ground through the cross with different gifts and callings. The Apostles were sent ones to preach the gospel to the regions that God called them to..

You still do not understand do you?