Fair Judgement???

[Grega]

I have a question here that is inspired by anothers post

Suppose (hypothetically) that I am a cruel and sadistic murderer whom with no compassion for other humans go out and kill 1000 people (by going on a rapmpage in some unversity say) showing obvious signs of enjoyment as I carried out such a deed, suppose further that half of these people who's lives I had extinguished had not yet found your god (some are atheists) and so if I understand it are destined for hell (whatever you define hell to be).

Now suppose that during my time in prison I repent, find your god, worship him etc...and supposedly earn my way into heaven.

Is your god indifferent towards the 500 people who may have found him but didn't as a direct result of my wicked actions? Does your god value my soul in this case higher than those who were cruelly prevented from having their fair chance at "finding Jesus"?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Is your god indifferent towards the 500 people who may have found him but didn't as a direct result of my wicked actions? Does your god value my soul in this case higher than those who were cruelly prevented from having their fair chance at "finding Jesus"?

i find it very sad that atheists are more interested in "dealing" with hypothetical situations rather than reality, but i guess it is understandable.

Anyway, God, knowing the end from the beginning, goes by what the final outcome would have been for each person involved. As a result, He would end up rejoicing over 501 new children in His Kingdom.

As an aside, no one "earns their way into heaven"--they are adopted into God's family at their request.

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Grega]

i find it very sad that atheists are more interested in "dealing" with hypothetical situations rather than reality, but i guess it is understandable.

Anyway, God, knowing the end from the beginning, goes by what the final outcome would have been for each person involved. As a result, He would end up rejoicing over 501 new children in His Kingdom.

As an aside, no one "earns their way into heaven"--they are adopted into God's family at their request.

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

i find it very sad that atheists are more interested in "dealing" with hypothetical situations rather than reality, but i guess it is understandable.
Hmm...how else can I test the feasibility of your god other than constructing problems to be resolved? (for which some of them are distinct rom the reality I experience and therefore necessarily hypothetical)


Anyway, God, knowing the end from the beginning, goes by what the final outcome would have been for each person involved. As a result, He would end up rejoicing over 501 new children in His Kingdom.
I see, well firstly I say it is wrong to automatically infer that your god knew all 500 of those killed would have found Him/Jesus eventually...but this is trivial.

The more important point is that your response here implies that our actions are scripted since even if we suppose your god knows what any of the 500 unlucky people (pick an arbitrary one of these and call him Bob) would have done say if I had not have killed them, he also knows that the event that was going to occur was that I would have killed them...but if he knew this in the beginning then by creating the universe/us he instantiated the chain of events which would lead to my eventual creation whereby I go out and kill Bob...what else could I do other than precisely what your god saw me doing long before I even existed?
Why didn't your god in this case arrange it such that this event did not occur and save those who died horrific deaths and those affected indirectly by their deaths and suffering from needless and long since foreseen pain? (feel free to substitute any person in history/the present (or the future even) that has coldly killed many people as opposed to hypothetical old me in order to make sense of this question)


A further question would then of course be that given your god saw the end in the beginning...why does anyone go to hell? (again...substitute your own definition of hell here) since before we exist in the timeline relative to someone who exists on this planet, it is known by your god what actions we must perform such that the event your god has seen will be true in every detail?
It seems that some of us are created in order to fulfill his vision that we will fail him.

 

[ephraimanesti]

i find it very sad that atheists are more interested in "dealing" with hypothetical situations rather than reality, but i guess it is understandable.
Hmm...how else can I test the feasibility of your god other than constructing problems to be resolved? (for which some of them are distinct rom the reality I experience and therefore necessarily hypothetical)

MY BROTHER,

WELL, you could fall down upon your knees before Him as the rest of us have and experience Him directly for yourself instead of wasting your life concocting mind games to avoid the issue. He has promised, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in a eat with him, and he with me."(Revelation 3:20)

Anyway, God, knowing the end from the beginning, goes by what the final outcome would have been for each person involved. As a result, He would end up rejoicing over 501 new children in His Kingdom.
I see, well firstly I say it is wrong to automatically infer that your god knew all 500 of those killed would have found Him/Jesus eventually...but this is trivial.

Indeed.

The more important point is that your response here implies that our actions are scripted since even if we suppose your god knows what any of the 500 unlucky people (pick an arbitrary one of these and call him Bob) would have done say if I had not have killed them, he also knows that the event that was going to occur was that I would have killed them...but if he knew this in the beginning then by creating the universe/us he instantiated the chain of events which would lead to my eventual creation whereby I go out and kill Bob...what else could I do other than precisely what your god saw me doing long before I even existed?
Why didn't your god in this case arrange it such that this event did not occur and save those who died horrific deaths and those affected indirectly by their deaths and suffering from needless and long since foreseen pain? (feel free to substitute any person in history/the present (or the future even) that has coldly killed many people as opposed to hypothetical old me in order to make sense of this question)

The fact that God knows the end from the beginning in no way means that God has anything scripted or that all involved do not have absolute and complete freewill. "What else could I do." Pleeese!

Blaming God for the actions of humans is bizarre in the extreme. You might take that to the logical conclusion--as some have--and state that if God hadn't created us we won't have sinned and, because He knew before the act of creation that we would sin, He is responsible for our sins and therefore has no right to judge us.

i understand completely the antipathy most atheists--apparently including yourself--hold towards the fact that man was created with absolute freewill if, for no other reason, that it means that we have to take responsibility for our actions and their consequences. It is much more comfortable, i suppose, to see oneself as a evolved animal without freewill, acting only on instincts for which they aren't responsible.

However, that is not the way Creation is. So when you attempt to castigate God (talk about hubris!) for not making certain acts impossible thus preventing the big and small tragities of which life in this fallen world is full, you, in effect, express a desire to live a robotic existence in a controlled environment in which there are no real choices and thus no concepts such as right and wrong, good and bad. In essence, you appear to desire to live a scripted existence in some kind of cosmic "reality show" in which you merely go through the motions of being "human" and merely participate in what only APPEARS to be a "life." i find your thinking sadly strange, although i can see why you might prefer it. However, i much prefer God's reality to your desires.

A further question would then of course be that given your god saw the end in the beginning...why does anyone go to hell? (again...substitute your own definition of hell here) since before we exist in the timeline relative to someone who exists on this planet, it is known by your god what actions we must perform such that the event your god has seen will be true in every detail?
It seems that some of us are created in order to fulfill his vision that we will fail him.

People "go to hell" because, by the exercise of their freewill, they turn their back on God and the Love He freely offers to all, and choose instead a life of rebellion against the very idea that He even exists. As with all our acts of freewill, God must allow us to make our choices, inspite of their eternal negative consequences--an eternal state of separation from God and His Love, a separation which is chosen freely and entered into willingly. The fact that God knows who will make which choice--for or against--in no way changes the responsibility for the choice and its consequences--both of which are very much against God's will and cause Him much pain. "THE LORD DOES NOT DELAY HIS PROMISE, AS SOME UNDERSTAND DELAY, BUT IS PATIENT WITH YOU, NOT WANTING ANY TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE."(II Peter 3:9)

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Refurbished]

Hi Grega,

Is your god indifferent towards the 500 people who may have found him but didn't as a direct result of my wicked actions? Does your god value my soul in this case higher than those who were cruelly prevented from having their fair chance at "finding Jesus"?

Sorry, but I don't understand the implication... do you mean why didn't God stop you from carrying out your [hypothetical] actions? If so, what would you expect God should have done and at what "level" does His intervention stop? Or do you mean how could He allow you to enter heaven given your actions? Your sins have already been paid when Jesus hung upon the cross. He took your sins upon Himself and suffered God's wrath against them that you rightly deserve. In otherwords, when we reject Jesus we are in fact holding onto our sins instead of handing them over to Jesus, and as such, we face God's wrath rather than Jesus bearing it for us, and so we die in hell. The question that I don't know the answer to is how God could love me, let alone such a person who commits such horrendous sins, and to be honest I don't think I ever will. Heh, the thing that gets me sometimes is that I'm just as guilty as such a person and just as without excuse and rightly exposed to God's wrath. Thankfully we're both equally available to claim God's grace.

It may not seem fair to you at first glance, which John Blanchard interestingly commented that "without a God of absolute justice, words like "just" and "unjust" have no moral content but are matters of personal opinion at best and meaningless at worst" (Blanchard, 2002:12), and so to judge God we need to understand the big picture ... that we are not "basically good" but "inheritly sinful" (Psalm 51:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:18-32, 3:23) and that sin is no small thing to God. The consequences for a transgression increase expotentially the higher the authority that you transgress against is. For example, compare the consequences of lying to your boss as opposed to lying to the taxation office or courts. Now consider that God is infinitely more holy and authoritive than these human authorities and take the logic to its ultimate conclusion and you'll see just how big our sin is and how death is the only thing that we earn and deserve for our transgressions against God (Romans 6:23).

Part of living in a sin-cursed world is that messed up things happen and that we could die at any moment. Jesus addresses this reality in Luke 13:1-8 where He said:

Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them - do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish (13:4-5).
​

The point? Our life is short and we don't know when our number is up and so we have to get right with God now while we have the chance because we may not get another tomorrow (James 4:13-15). We will all die at some point or another and sometimes our lives are cut short by accidents (such as car crashes), natural disasters, or sickness, or by other people (such as murder) and our eternal address is not based on our works, but on what we have done with Jesus. It isn't something worth taking a chance on...

Resource:
Blanchard, J. 2002. Where Was God On September 11? Evangelical Press: Faverdale North Industrial Estate, Darlington.


As an aside with regards to the other discussions about God knowing the future, I personally believe that God knows what will happen in the future not because He has predestined it, but because He exists outside of time and is not bound by it and as such He can see the past, present, and future simultaneously.

 

[Grega]

MY BROTHER,

WELL, you could fall down upon your knees before Him as the rest of us have and experience Him directly for yourself instead of wasting your life concocting mind games to avoid the issue. He has promised, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in a eat with him, and he with me."(Revelation 3:20)


Indeed.


The fact that God knows the end from the beginning in no way means that God has anything scripted or that all involved do not have absolute and complete freewill. "What else could I do." Pleeese!

Blaming God for the actions of humans is bizarre in the extreme. You might take that to the logical conclusion--as some have--and state that if God hadn't created us we won't have sinned and, because He knew before the act of creation that we would sin, He is responsible for our sins and therefore has no right to judge us.

i understand completely the antipathy most atheists--apparently including yourself--hold towards the fact that man was created with absolute freewill if, for no other reason, that it means that we have to take responsibility for our actions and their consequences. It is much more comfortable, i suppose, to see oneself as a evolved animal without freewill, acting only on instincts for which they aren't responsible.

However, that is not the way Creation is. So when you attempt to castigate God (talk about hubris!) for not making certain acts impossible thus preventing the big and small tragities of which life in this fallen world is full, you, in effect, express a desire to live a robotic existence in a controlled environment in which there are no real choices and thus no concepts such as right and wrong, good and bad. In essence, you appear to desire to live a scripted existence in some kind of cosmic "reality show" in which you merely go through the motions of being "human" and merely participate in what only APPEARS to be a "life." i find your thinking sadly strange, although i can see why you might prefer it. However, i much prefer God's reality to your desires.


People "go to hell" because, by the exercise of their freewill, they turn their back on God and the Love He freely offers to all, and choose instead a life of rebellion against the very idea that He even exists. As with all our acts of freewill, God must allow us to make our choices, inspite of their eternal negative consequences--an eternal state of separation from God and His Love, a separation which is chosen freely and entered into willingly. The fact that God knows who will make which choice--for or against--in no way changes the responsibility for the choice and its consequences--both of which are very much against God's will and cause Him much pain. "THE LORD DOES NOT DELAY HIS PROMISE, AS SOME UNDERSTAND DELAY, BUT IS PATIENT WITH YOU, NOT WANTING ANY TO PERISH, BUT ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE."(II Peter 3:9)

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

WELL, you could fall down upon your knees before Him as the rest of us have and experience Him directly for yourself instead of wasting your life concocting mind games to avoid the issue. He has promised, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in a eat with him, and he with me."(Revelation 3:20)
Until I know tht the god you'd have me bowing down to is feasible, I cannot!

The fact that God knows the end from the beginning in no way means that God has anything scripted or that all involved do not have absolute and complete freewill. "What else could I do." Pleeese!
Why do I disagree with this?...again more carefully:

• Your god creates the universe we exist in...he creates our timeline (I don't even think it relevent to include this initial step for the most important conclusion would follow from later steps without this)
• There exists a point on this earthly timeleine for which I did not exist
• Despite the fact that I did not exist, your god saw me perform X
• The timeline moves along whereby I am created
• For all actions that I perform, they must all result in fulfilling your god's vision that I performed X...it cannot be true that your god sees me doing X and I instead do Y (else he would have seen me do Y!) (X =/= Y btw)
• But X is an arbitrary action, so all actions I perform in order to fulfill your god's vision of me doing X must also have been foreseen (for you could have chosen any of these to be X instead)
• Therefore I must behave in precisely the way your god saw me behave before I was created ie: my actions are scripted
• Your god created the universe, and our timeline ie: your god created the script (I added in this step after adding in the first step)

The way out of this problem is to realise that your gods omniscience in this way implies that we have no freewill (only pseudo-freewill from our perspective)...I say that I do think we have freewill, and that the existence of a god that exists outside of time in the way you describe is not viable.


Blaming God for the actions of humans is bizarre in the extreme. You might take that to the logical conclusion--as some have--and state that if God hadn't created us we won't have sinned and, because He knew before the act of creation that we would sin, He is responsible for our sins and therefore has no right to judge us.
That is pretty much the argument, given my above reasoning that I would make!

i understand completely the antipathy most atheists--apparently including yourself--hold towards the fact that man was created with absolute freewill if, for no other reason, that it means that we have to take responsibility for our actions and their consequences. It is much more comfortable, i suppose, to see oneself as a evolved animal without freewill, acting only on instincts for which they aren't responsible.
I merely reject your premise that god exists outside of time with the ability to see all things AND we have freewill...I say that one of those two cannot be true if the other is

However, that is not the way Creation is. So when you attempt to castigate God (talk about hubris!) for not making certain acts impossible thus preventing the big and small tragities of which life in this fallen world is full, you, in effect, express a desire to live a robotic existence in a controlled environment in which there are no real choices and thus no concepts such as right and wrong, good and bad...
If your god is inconsistent (and I say your formulation of it is), then I'm not castigating a god that exists...I'm castigating a god that is contradictory...this is not being arrogant

In essence, you appear to desire to live a scripted existence in some kind of cosmic "reality show" in which you merely go through the motions of being "human" and merely participate in what only APPEARS to be a "life." i find your thinking sadly strange, although i can see why you might prefer it. However, i much prefer God's reality to your desires.
But this is not how I want to live!

People "go to hell" because, by the exercise of their freewill, they turn their back on God and the Love He freely offers to all, and choose instead a life of rebellion against the very idea that He even exists. As with all our acts of freewill, God must allow us to make our choices, inspite of their eternal negative consequences--an eternal state of separation from God and His Love, a separation which is chosen freely and entered into willingly. The fact that God knows who will make which choice--for or against--in no way changes the responsibility for the choice and its consequences--both of which are very much against God's will and cause Him much pain.
Again I say I disagree with this, given that the formulation of your god compels me to do exactly what he saw me do before I was created.

 

[Grega]

Hi Grega,

Sorry, but I don't understand the implication... do you mean why didn't God stop you from carrying out your [hypothetical] actions? If so, what would you expect God should have done and at what "level" does His intervention stop? Or do you mean how could He allow you to enter heaven given your actions? Your sins have already been paid when Jesus hung upon the cross. He took your sins upon Himself and suffered God's wrath against them that you rightly deserve. In otherwords, when we reject Jesus we are in fact holding onto our sins instead of handing them over to Jesus, and as such, we face God's wrath rather than Jesus bearing it for us, and so we die in hell. The question that I don't know the answer to is how God could love me, let alone such a person who commits such horrendous sins, and to be honest I don't think I ever will. Heh, the thing that gets me sometimes is that I'm just as guilty as such a person and just as without excuse and rightly exposed to God's wrath. Thankfully we're both equally available to claim God's grace.

It may not seem fair to you at first glance, which John Blanchard interestingly commented that "without a God of absolute justice, words like "just" and "unjust" have no moral content but are matters of personal opinion at best and meaningless at worst" (Blanchard, 2002:12), and so to judge God we need to understand the big picture ... that we are not "basically good" but "inheritly sinful" (Psalm 51:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:18-32, 3:23) and that sin is no small thing to God. The consequences for a transgression increase expotentially the higher the authority that you transgress against is. For example, compare the consequences of lying to your boss as opposed to lying to the taxation office or courts. Now consider that God is infinitely more holy and authoritive than these human authorities and take the logic to its ultimate conclusion and you'll see just how big our sin is and how death is the only thing that we earn and deserve for our transgressions against God (Romans 6:23).

Part of living in a sin-cursed world is that messed up things happen and that we could die at any moment. Jesus addresses this reality in Luke 13:1-8 where He said:

Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them - do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish (13:4-5).
​

The point? Our life is short and we don't know when our number is up and so we have to get right with God now while we have the chance because we may not get another tomorrow (James 4:13-15). We will all die at some point or another and sometimes our lives are cut short by accidents (such as car crashes), natural disasters, or sickness, or by other people (such as murder) and our eternal address is not based on our works, but on what we have done with Jesus. It isn't something worth taking a chance on...

Resource:
Blanchard, J. 2002. Where Was God On September 11? Evangelical Press: Faverdale North Industrial Estate, Darlington.


As an aside with regards to the other discussions about God knowing the future, I personally believe that God knows what will happen in the future not because He has predestined it, but because He exists outside of time and is not bound by it and as such He can see the past, present, and future simultaneously.

Sorry, but I don't understand the implication... do you mean why didn't God stop you from carrying out your [hypothetical] actions?...
No...not in this thread, I'd ask you to reread the OP, but basically 500 people who had "not asked for your god's forgiveness" are taken out of existence by my actions. Perhaps some of them would have given that they had longer to live...but my actions make such points moot, they are unrepentant sinners who have died and thus go to hell (If I understand the general concensus properly)

But then I repent, find Jesus, and become saved etc...whereby I enter heaven. But one of the expenditures your god has paid for my existence is that '500 of his children' will not glorify Him, ask for forgiveness, etc... therefore must assume that your god is indifferent to those other 500 souls for I could have killed the entire population of the earth but apparantly if I repent its ok...inspite of the number of 'his children' that will not reside in heaven because of me!

almost all that follows is a response that doesn't fit my question but I say your logical reasoning relies on tautologies and premises I don't agree with...I won't respond to them here though

As an aside with regards to the other discussions about God knowing the future, I personally believe that God knows what will happen in the future not because He has predestined it, but because He exists outside of time and is not bound by it and as such He can see the past, present, and future simultaneously
Please see my previous response to ephraimanesti

 

[Emmy]

Dear Grega. After trying to keep up with those many words on " Fair Judgement???" may I point out that God has given us free will to follow our own inclinations. And when God sees the end of our life, and the outcome of our choices, it will be exactly what WE have chosen, Not what God had decreed for us all along. When God gives us free will of choice, it will be FREE will. God is a Fair Judge and His Holy Law stands forever, Fair and WITHOUT COERCION. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[ephraimanesti]

WELL, you could fall down upon your knees before Him as the rest of us have and experience Him directly for yourself instead of wasting your life concocting mind games to avoid the issue. He has promised, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in a eat with him, and he with me."(Revelation 3:20)
Until I know tht the god you'd have me bowing down to is feasible, I cannot!

That is called "A Catch 22"--you won't bow until you know and you can't know until you bow.

Faith is indeed a great stumbling block for those who believe in nothing above and beyond themselves!

The fact that God knows the end from the beginning in no way means that God has anything scripted or that all involved do not have absolute and complete freewill. "What else could I do." Pleeese!
Why do I disagree with this?...again more carefully:

• Your god creates the universe we exist in...he creates our timeline (I don't even think it relevent to include this initial step for the most important conclusion would follow from later steps without this)
• There exists a point on this earthly timeleine for which I did not exist
• Despite the fact that I did not exist, your god saw me perform X
• The timeline moves along whereby I am created
• For all actions that I perform, they must all result in fulfilling your god's vision that I performed X...it cannot be true that your god sees me doing X and I instead do Y (else he would have seen me do Y!) (X =/= Y btw)
• But X is an arbitrary action, so all actions I perform in order to fulfill your god's vision of me doing X must also have been foreseen (for you could have chosen any of these to be X instead)
• Therefore I must behave in precisely the way your god saw me behave before I was created ie: my actions are scripted
• Your god created the universe, and our timeline ie: your god created the script (I added in this step after adding in the first step)

The way out of this problem is to realise that your gods omniscience in this way implies that we have no freewill (only pseudo-freewill from our perspective)...I say that I do think we have freewill, and that the existence of a god that exists outside of time in the way you describe is not viable.

i'll be sure to mention that to Him.

Blaming God for the actions of humans is bizarre in the extreme. You might take that to the logical conclusion--as some have--and state that if God hadn't created us we won't have sinned and, because He knew before the act of creation that we would sin, He is responsible for our sins and therefore has no right to judge us.
That is pretty much the argument, given my above reasoning that I would make!
Yes, unfortunately it is. The human mind, unaided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is a very flawed instrument indeed--especially when it is driven by a seriously flawed agenda.

i understand completely the antipathy most atheists--apparently including yourself--hold towards the fact that man was created with absolute freewill if, for no other reason, that it means that we have to take responsibility for our actions and their consequences. It is much more comfortable, i suppose, to see oneself as a evolved animal without freewill, acting only on instincts for which they aren't responsible.
I merely reject your premise that god exists outside of time with the ability to see all things AND we have freewill...I say that one of those two cannot be true if the other is

You and God have a difference of opinion regarding the Truth of existence. So who am i going to believe--you or God. Hmmmm . . . let me think. i think i will stick with the Creator of all things given that He hasn't been wrong yet and, no offense intended, your track record is pretty dismal.

However, that is not the way Creation is. So when you attempt to castigate God (talk about hubris!) for not making certain acts impossible thus preventing the big and small tragities of which life in this fallen world is full, you, in effect, express a desire to live a robotic existence in a controlled environment in which there are no real choices and thus no concepts such as right and wrong, good and bad...
If your god is inconsistent (and I say your formulation of it is), then I'm not castigating a god that exists...I'm castigating a god that is contradictory...this is not being arrogant

A creature judging and dismissing His Creator "not being arrogant"? Please!

In essence, you appear to desire to live a scripted existence in some kind of cosmic "reality show" in which you merely go through the motions of being "human" and merely participate in what only APPEARS to be a "life." i find your thinking sadly strange, although i can see why you might prefer it. However, i much prefer God's reality to your desires.
But this is not how I want to live!

That is at least an honest statement. And because you do not wish to live according to God's reality, you have chosen atheism as a tool to "do away with God" and thus avoid the Reality of your rebellion. Been there and done that, and discovered it doesn't work. Reality doesn't just disappear because we close our eyes, and the universe continues even though we are asleep.

Again I say I disagree with this, given that the formulation of your god compels me to do exactly what he saw me do before I was created.

i'm sorry, but the above ramblings are just self-serving jibberish. You are not "compelled" by God or anyone else. You CHOOSE minute by minute what your life will consist of--and you alone will have to answer, standing in the Light of God's Love, for what it becomes as a result of your God-defying choices. Your problem is a lack of understanding of the fact that God, Who fills the Universe, is thus outside of time and in no way bound by its constructs as we humans are. For God, everything is NOW, with no past or future--only the eternal NOW. He observes your choices and their consequences in this NOW, and His observation, which results, on our earthly timeline, as "foreknowledge" does not script ANYTHING--it is just observation of that which is. The responsibility for that which is transpiring under God's gaze rests upon those who made it so, not on God who observes. God has bound Himself not to interfere with our exercise of freewill, in spite of its often disasterous results for ourselves and others--results of choices eternally remaining the sole responsibility of the chooser.

Stop with the Star Trek silliness already.

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Grega]

That is called "A Catch 22"--you won't bow until you know and you can't know until you bow.

Faith is indeed a great stumbling block for those who believe in nothing above and beyond themselves!


i'll be sure to mention that to Him.

Blaming God for the actions of humans is bizarre in the extreme. You might take that to the logical conclusion--as some have--and state that if God hadn't created us we won't have sinned and, because He knew before the act of creation that we would sin, He is responsible for our sins and therefore has no right to judge us.
That is pretty much the argument, given my above reasoning that I would make!
Yes, unfortunately it is. The human mind, unaided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is a very flawed instrument indeed--especially when it is driven by a seriously flawed agenda.


You and God have a difference of opinion regarding the Truth of existence. So who am i going to believe--you or God. Hmmmm . . . let me think. i think i will stick with the Creator of all things given that He hasn't been wrong yet and, no offense intended, your track record is pretty dismal.


A creature judging and dismissing His Creator "not being arrogant"? Please!


That is at least an honest statement. And because you do not wish to live according to God's reality, you have chosen atheism as a tool to "do away with God" and thus avoid the Reality of your rebellion. Been there and done that, and discovered it doesn't work. Reality doesn't just disappear because we close our eyes, and the universe continues even though we are asleep.


i'm sorry, but the above ramblings are just self-serving jibberish. You are not "compelled" by God or anyone else. You CHOOSE minute by minute what your life will consist of--and you alone will have to answer, standing in the Light of God's Love, for what it becomes as a result of your God-defying choices. Your problem is a lack of understanding of the fact that God, Who fills the Universe, is thus outside of time and in no way bound by its constructs as we humans are. For God, everything is NOW, with no past or future--only the eternal NOW. He observes your choices and their consequences in this NOW, and His observation, which results, on our earthly timeline, as "foreknowledge" does not script ANYTHING--it is just observation of that which is. The responsibility for that which is transpiring under God's gaze rests upon those who made it so, not on God who observes. God has bound Himself not to interfere with our exercise of freewill, in spite of its often disasterous results for ourselves and others--results of choices eternally remaining the sole responsibility of the chooser.

Stop with the Star Trek silliness already.

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

i'll be sure to mention that to Him.
You'd have to have actually followed the argument in order to do that and forgive me for saying, it seems you hastily skim read that argument just to deliver this somewhat weightless 'crushing blow'. I formed this argument in more detail in another thread...I welcome you to point out in that thread where you disagree with the premises/definitions or colnclusions derived thereof...and why. Furthermore this dilemma is well recognised and has not been reconciled by so-called 'sophisticated' theistic arguments...I say it can't be.

i'm sorry, but the above ramblings are just self-serving jibberish. You are not "compelled" by God or anyone else. You CHOOSE minute by minute what your life will consist of
my choice at any given time can only be that which makes true the statement your god sees me do X
--and you alone will have to answer, standing in the Light of God's Love, for what it becomes as a result of your God-defying choices.
But not infront of your god!
Your problem is a lack of understanding of the fact that God, Who fills the Universe, is thus outside of time and in no way bound by its constructs as we humans are. For God, everything is NOW, with no past or future--only the eternal NOW.
My argument relies upon this notion! ...you however refuse to pay it sufficient attention to realise this.
He observes your choices and their consequences in this NOW, and His observation, which results, on our earthly timeline, as "foreknowledge" does not script ANYTHING--it is just observation of that which is.
an observation for "that which is" on all points of the timeline, even those where I didn't exist...and from my local time based point of view I must do X if that is what your god sees...how can I 'choose' to do Y=/=X if your god sees me do X???
The responsibility for that which is transpiring under God's gaze rests upon those who made it so, not on God who observes. God has bound Himself not to interfere with our exercise of freewill, in spite of its often disasterous results for ourselves and others--results of choices eternally remaining the sole responsibility of the chooser.
I simply don't think this is true

That is called "A Catch 22"--you won't bow until you know and you can't know until you bow.
To bow down to your god I say would have as much merit as bowing down to your least favourite satirical god...your god is contradictory and I say it does not exist


Yes, unfortunately it is. The human mind, unaided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is a very flawed instrument indeed--especially when it is driven by a seriously flawed agenda.
My 'agenda' is as I've said elsewhere to determine what statements about your god are feasible...and which are not feasible...some statements about your god fall into the latter category


You and God have a difference of opinion regarding the Truth of existence. So who am i going to believe--you or God. Hmmmm . . . let me think. i think i will stick with the Creator of all things given that He hasn't been wrong yet and, no offense intended, your track record is pretty dismal
This would have been more accurately written as "you and my god..." your god cannot exist


A creature judging and dismissing His Creator "not being arrogant"? Please!
I am judging and dismissing your erroneous formulation of a creator...nothing arrogant in that at all.


That is at least an honest statement. And because you do not wish to live according to God's reality, you have chosen atheism as a tool to "do away with God" and thus avoid the Reality of your rebellion. Been there and done that, and discovered it doesn't work. Reality doesn't just disappear because we close our eyes, and the universe continues even though we are asleep
Most of this response is meaningless...I don't recognise your god or its reality...you are equivocating reality and 'your god's reality'




I acknowledge that I changed what should have been the natural order of my responses...I had my reasons

 

[ephraimanesti]

I don't recognise your god or its reality

What you "recognize" or refuse to "recognize" changes nothing--except, of course, whether you get a real Life or continue to merely exist.

...you are equivocating reality and 'your god's reality'

TO CUT TO THE CHASE: They are one and the same--there is no other.

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[OldChurchGuy]

I have a question here that is inspired by anothers post

Suppose (hypothetically) that I am a cruel and sadistic murderer whom with no compassion for other humans go out and kill 1000 people (by going on a rapmpage in some unversity say) showing obvious signs of enjoyment as I carried out such a deed, suppose further that half of these people who's lives I had extinguished had not yet found your god (some are atheists) and so if I understand it are destined for hell (whatever you define hell to be).

Now suppose that during my time in prison I repent, find your god, worship him etc...and supposedly earn my way into heaven.

Is your god indifferent towards the 500 people who may have found him but didn't as a direct result of my wicked actions? Does your god value my soul in this case higher than those who were cruelly prevented from having their fair chance at "finding Jesus"?

Very thought provoking question.

For me, I can say with absolute certainty that I do not know. (Please note it is not my intention to sound flippant or disrespectful of the question).

It is my belief that judgment of people is God's department. Trying to decide such things is beyond a mere mortal like me.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[drich0150]

I have a question here that is inspired by anothers post

Suppose (hypothetically) that I am a cruel and sadistic murderer whom with no compassion for other humans go out and kill 1000 people (by going on a rapmpage in some unversity say) showing obvious signs of enjoyment as I carried out such a deed, suppose further that half of these people who's lives I had extinguished had not yet found your god (some are atheists) and so if I understand it are destined for hell (whatever you define hell to be).

Now suppose that during my time in prison I repent, find your god, worship him etc...and supposedly earn my way into heaven.

Is your god indifferent towards the 500 people who may have found him but didn't as a direct result of my wicked actions? Does your god value my soul in this case higher than those who were cruelly prevented from having their fair chance at "finding Jesus"?

The severity of your killing spree is truly a matter of perspective. When your life span, and your life experience is the only measure in which you have to enjoy life, or to exercise your Idea of personal freedom. Then life itself will take on an artificial importance. But from a Godly perspective or from an eternal stand point, what difference will 20, 40, or 60 years make?

We are told life is like a vapor here one second and gone the next. We are to live as if everyday were our last, because we are not promised tomorrow. If you carried out your killing spree anywhere in the western civilized world, anyone at the age of accountability has had an opportunity to at least hear of God. Hearing of him is enough for you make some sort of decision as to what we will do with him. Truthfully though, the amount of exposure one has over his life time whether it be 20 years or 100 will determine how that person is judged. God is sovereign, and he will have mercy on whom he chooses, but at the same time don't think at your judgment you'll be able to fool him into thinking, or excepting, whatever you have fooled yourself into doing with your life, outside of his will for us.

So back to your situation, if you did find God after a life time in prison for killing those people then you will have a place in the Lambs book of life, and if those who died at your hands rejected God when they were presented with an opportunity to know him, they will more than likely not be dragged into heaven kicking and screaming.

This life is an opportunity to forge a relationship that will span eternity. If you don't take advantage of this opportunity, then for you, Heaven will be hell. so why would God force someone who doesn't want to be around him to be there? Look at hell as an alternative to living in a state of perpetual worship, if it makes it easier for you. If you don't like it here, you won't like it there. Everything will be the same except you won't be able to deny being in the presents of God. That's why it is better to start and forge a relationship with him in the presents of choice or sin.

Because what you do now, will not only determine your eternal fate but ultimately how deep your relationship will carry over into the next life. Because if you can be trusted with much while seemingly unsupervised, then when you are in the presences of your lord you will be also be faithful and rewarded as such. but if you squander what you have been given, then what you have left will be taken from you and you will be cast out of the presents of your Lord with nothing.

 

[Grega]

Very thought provoking question.

For me, I can say with absolute certainty that I do not know. (Please note it is not my intention to sound flippant or disrespectful of the question).

It is my belief that judgment of people is God's department. Trying to decide such things is beyond a mere mortal like me.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

It is a breath of fresh air that someone finally sees what is actually the problem and whether they can or cannot conceive a valid solution they have the good grace to at least acknowledge it

 

[salida]

God shows no favorism, James 3:17.

People are not condemned to hell for not believing in Jesus but are already condemned because of their sin- John 3:18.

In Acts 17:26-27 - From one man (Adam) He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.

So, the reason why I'm not born in another country but in the U.S., grew up in a specific family in a certain neighborhood, etc. is that my chances of reaching out to God are much higher.

Romans 1:20 - This scripture states that we are without excuse because of His creation which is clearly seen.

Within those 500 people I bet some where christians as they went to heaven. Those that didn't were condemned already. That wicked person that shot them didn't send some of those 500 people to hell but they sent themselves because of their sin.