The Problem of Hell

[Adam007]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

 

[Washington]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

Hey, you're talking about a punisher who visited the single error of two people on billions of their descendants. Think he'd have any compunctions about carrying such ugly craziness to the next step?

"Ya got X number of years to keep your nose clean, bub. And just one major screw-up, like believing I don't exist and giving me the royal treatment, will get you an eternity of unbelievable misery."
​

I don't.

 

[lazor]

It's weird, because if God existed; I would be sent to hell, but hypothetically; Stalin or Hitler could have believed in what Jesus did for them and still go to heaven.

 

[Washington]

It's weird, because if God existed; I would be sent to hell, but hypothetically; Stalin or Hitler could have believed in what Jesus did for them and still go to heaven.

Yeah, It's a belief trumps behavior religion. It ain't whatcha do, it's what whatcha think.

 

[lazor]

Yeah, It's a belief trumps behavior religion. It ain't whatcha do, it's what whatcha think.

Well, depends on the religion of course.

As far as I know, everyone is welcome to Flying Spaghetti Monster heaven

 

[Washington]

Well, depends on the religion of course.

Well, I figured that in as much as we were talking about Heaven and Hell, and you mentioned Jesus, that the religion we are talking about is Christianity. Am I wrong in my presumption?

 

[JGL53]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

The above logic is impeccable.

Hell is a ridiculous logical absurdity and is morally reprehensible to boot.

Religionists who claim they believe in a Hell make themselves seem silly at best and rather crazed at worse.

 

[Adam007]

Thanks for the input guys. I have yet to hear of a Christians opinion on the concept of hell.

Come on guys!

 

[HumbleServant94]

Hell is a real place no matter what you say. Just hope you realise the truth before you die.

 

[nedyrb]

One problem I've always had with hell is, if I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God.. doesn't that turn Heaven into Hell for my Mom/Dad?

 

[HumbleServant94]

Not really, no. It wouldn't. Besides if they do get upset, it would be your own fault for rejecting Jesus.

 

[JGL53]

Hell is a real place no matter what you say. Just hope you realise the truth before you die.

I don't respond to threats.

Do you have anything else?

 

[Vigilante]

Hell is a real place no matter what you say. Just hope you realise the truth before you die.

You may be right, but claims in and of themselves are not tantamount to evidence. I might reply:

Hell is not a real place no matter what you say. Just hope you realise the truth before you die.

...But that won't have gotten us anywhere, will it?

Not really, no. It wouldn't. Besides if they do get upset, it would be your own fault for rejecting Jesus.

What an incredibly callous thing to say. Even if you think that this is the case, one might think that you'd at least demonstrate a heart sympathetic enough to find difficulty with this.

Words like yours contribute to my partial shame in calling myself 'Christian.' Many people are looking for answers, and even among those who aren't, many more still are willing to accept what others have to say provided they like where it's coming from. I'm not calling for the Make Everybody Happy doctrine, but really, who reaches for the burnt cookie?

One problem I've always had with hell is, if I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God.. doesn't that turn Heaven into Hell for my Mom/Dad?

Yes, I think it would. Some Augustinian (with respect to hell) philosophers--William Lane Craig comes to mind--try to circumvent this issue by claiming that God will partially "erase" the memories of those who have loved ones in hell. I don't find this an acceptable answer if we include the prerequisite characteristic of unbounding love in our conception of God (and when we're dealing with the Christian God, this love has, or at least is supposed to have, an inextricable relation with him). I would not want my own memory of my children erased, be they in hell or not, and I would claim that this desire of mine is based on my (hypothetical--I have no children) love for them.

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

Acceptable? Acceptable to whom, and in reference to which of his or her ideals? These are pertinent questions. =)

Personally, I do not find it acceptable. In fact, it was because it seemed so antithetical to the idea of a loving God that I began to search for alternative--more internally consistent!--perspectives. I happened upon a lot of the writings of Thomas Talbott, who is professor emeritus of philosophy at Willamette University in Oregon, and it is in large part through the penetrating analysis of his writings that I no longer feel convinced that an eternity in hell awaits anyone. Hell, yes, to be sure--but only for the purpose of reforming the individual before they are welcomed into heaven. Some call this heresy, but some also claim that the blind spots built into homo sapiens eyes is evidence of "intelligent design," and that Noah really did get a kaleidoscopic number of animals on a leaky boat in the middle of nowhere. I digress. Suffice it to say that there is always a deeper layer to unearth, and this theological position has a very credible, centuries-old tradition of thought.

I should mention that Talbott does not make these claims solely on philosophical conjecture. He doesn't try to fit any square pegs ('eternal punishment!') into round holes ('everyone gets in!'). You'll be interested, though, in his discussion of the original Greek words aionios and kolasis, translated into "eternal" and "punishment," respectively (this is from the oft-quoted Matthew 25:46). His exegesis of other related verses, too, are enlightening. You can find a brief overview in PDF form here (17 pages minus the endnotes): http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/PICTURES.pdf

As a worldview, Christianity has its share of questions and concerns like any other. But I don't think this should be one of them.


[Also, if the esoterics of other worldviews really interest you, you can knock yourself out on this topic here: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html ]

 

[quatona]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

What purpose of punishment are you (is Borges) working from anyways?

 

[seashale76]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

Let's start with what sin is. Sin means 'to miss the mark.' The mark is, of course, living a life fully in accordance with the life and teachings of Christ. So, to sin is to keep oneself separated from God (though it isn't truly possible to stay out of God's presence). Sin can be voluntary or involuntary and can be achieved with our knowledge or our ignorance. Some things are obvious sins. Others, not so much. Sin is personal in nature and you will find no definitive list of what is or isn't a sin. You can be sure that anything which causes a person to 'miss the mark' is a sin. We don't inherit original sin, just the consequence of it, which is death.

Christ defeated sin and death.

In the Christian view, everyone sins. This doesn't mean that we are born depraved though. The Church is the ultimate hospital and Christ is the Great Physician. To a Christian, we live out our lives in the Church, and must daily make a decision to take up our cross and follow Christ. The Church is there to help us turn from our sins. A person who perseveres in this will attain theosis. Our struggle with sin is something that everyone must contend with. One must cooperate with God (synergeia). Those who don't turn from their sins in repentance are not on the road to being filled with the divine light. Those who don't turn from sin and repent don't have Christ in them.

This leads us to the concept of hell. God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[PhilosophicalBluster]

Well, depends on the religion of course.

As far as I know, everyone is welcome to Flying Spaghetti Monster heaven

Ha! I actually know what you're talking about!

 

[alien2earth]

Does eternal punishment fit the crime? How do you measure a crime in the first place? I could spend 5 seconds of my life killing one individual and get life in prison or the death penalty. But when we commit a crime we have to realize that we commit it against God since we're made in His image.

Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man. (Gen 9:6)

But are we going to seriously tell ourselves that there are a finite amount of crimes we commit, or if we were given the chance we would sin every day for the rest of eternity? Sin doesn't show us how things are good and we get caught in a divine 'trap', instead it shows us that we are evil beings by nature.

18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.(Rom 7:18-25)


How did God react, as recorded in the Bible, the first time humans were multiplying and doing their evilness?

5. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."(Gen 6:5-7)


But what about Jesus, one may ask? Well Jesus is our Savior and He did conquer sin, but as has been pointed out one must accept what He did. So is hell really acceptable from God's point of view (the Bible is revealed after all, not a Christian invention), and do all unsaved humans merit eternal punishment?
7. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9. WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10. "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11. AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.(Heb 3: 7-19)

 

[JGL53]

Does eternal punishment fit the crime? How do you measure a crime in the first place? I could spend 5 seconds of my life killing one individual and get life in prison or the death penalty. But when we commit a crime we have to realize that we commit it against God since we're made in His image.

Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God
He made man. (Gen 9:6)

But are we going to seriously tell ourselves that there are a finite amount of crimes we commit, or if we were given the chance we would sin every day for the rest of eternity? Sin doesn't show us how things are good and we get caught in a divine 'trap', instead it shows us that we are evil beings by nature.

18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.(Rom 7:18-25)


How did God react, as recorded in the Bible, the first time humans were multiplying and doing their evilness?

5. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."(Gen 6:5-7)


But what about Jesus, one may ask? Well Jesus is our Savior and He did conquer sin, but as has been pointed out one must accept what He did. So is hell really acceptable from God's point of view (the Bible is revealed after all, not a Christian invention), and do all unsaved humans merit eternal punishment?
7. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9. WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10. "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11. AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.(Heb 3: 7-19)

So what this boils down to is: life is a test, and one passes or one fails, and the reward for passing is unending bliss and the punishment for failing is unending pain. AND everyone is required to participate, no one asked to be born or created, but that is just too bad, you are REQUIRED to participate. And the vast majority, or at least some large per cent of humans, numbering in the billions, will indeed fail.

That about it?

And why should I believe any of that to be true? It all seems like it is made up to me. What proof of it do you have on offer?

Thank you.

 

[Nazzul]

23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

How did God react, as recorded in the Bible, the first time humans were multiplying and doing their evilness?

7. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."(Gen 6:5-7)


)

For one thing your views on yourself are sorta disturbing. That and your god sure seems like a very sadistic guy.

If you were father of a child who didn't believe in you I would you lock him in a basment and have someone torture him forever?

 

[alien2earth]

@JGL53:

I had the impression that the OP was addressing Christians since hell is a more or less Christian assertion. We can nitpick about other religions having it too, but Christianity seems to have the biggest problem since people associate a paradox of a loving God with eternal punishment.
Well, that would indeed be a problem if this universe was about us. If the reason the sun rises and cows fart is because the show is about humans then this is a problem. But if the universe is here because of God, if we are merely creatures made to worship Him (albeit His favorite creatures), then the perspective of hell changes. Why do we deserve anything but hell if we don't do as we're created for? In contrast, why do we deserve eternal bliss? Why should God make life so inexplicitly wonderful for us when we don't do as we should? Christians are by no means the model for how to behave in this world, Jesus (God) is. So, it comes back to everything is about God and He needs to increase in importance and we need to decrease.