Gay Christians: give it up

[KCKID]

I trust this will continue to keep you annoyed and entertained at the same time, LogosRhema.

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"Tongues" is not Gibberish.

Tongues, per se are NOT 'gibberish'. They are known languages of the world. Pentecostal 'tongues', however, ARE 'gibberish'. They are meaningless babble.

Just because YOU don't know the language does not mean it is "gibberish".

As said, known languages are not 'gibberish'. Known languages have MEANING to someone who undertands that particular language. 'Gibberish' (i.e. Pentecostal 'tongues') does not.

I have heard of people speaking in Hebrew, chinese, russian and several other dialects which they DID NOT KNOW and a third part verifies it is "interpreted" correctly by the second person.

If you knew anything about it, you would realize that.

That's an 'oldie but a goodie' but I like it. It's amazing how many bi-lingual people just happen to be present in a Pentecostal church ready to 'verify' that someone has just spoken in Hebrew, Chinese, Russian, and several other dialects.

Why don't you go to a pentecostal church a few times and find out the truth, instead of "lies your pastor told you" (see my thread with the same name from about 2 months ago).

Oh, I have INDEED been to a Pentecostal church - a number of times actually - and I've been quite disturbed by some of the so-called 'signs of the Spirit' that I've seen. When it comes to 'Spirit-infilling' the Pentecostals have made up their own doctrines.

You didn't read the Bible verses I showed, did you?

1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaketh in an <snip> tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Oh yes, I read it. I've read it lots of times. One that edifies HIMSELF (puffing himself up) is doing a disservice to the church. THAT'S a reprimand from Paul, NOT a suggestion that one should do so. Give me another example - just ONE - where ANYONE in the Bible says that one should edify themselves. Edification is done for others.

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an <snip>tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul says the speaker edifies himself.

Response already given. The speaker should NOT be edifying himself.

Paul says the speaker doesn't understand the tongue.

So, what you're having everyone believe is that God is speaking to Himself through you ...????

I do not use tongues as a means to glorify my self. You once again bear false witness. I have given all Glory to God.

But didn't you just say that you don't understand what it is you're saying? How can you possibly be giving glory to God if you don't understand what it is you're saying. Furthermore, if that is somehow true, then - again - God must be giving glory to Himself through you. ????

LoL. Have you ever read the book of Job then?

God isn't "Cool with" you thinking he was cruel in the Old Testament. IN fact, it is a sin for you to think that of God. God's judgments are just and right, whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not.

Hey, God gave me a brain with which to reason things out all by myself. That's the difference between me and a programed robot. I DON'T like the God of the Old Testament too much at all. Jesus is another matter. I find it difficult to believe that He and God are even related. That's how I think and feel. Is it REALLY a sin to think and feel for myself?

Ez. 18:29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye

Wow, did God say all that to little old me?

No. You bear witness against yourself that you did not even bother to read my post. If you had, you would have seen where I specificly said that being "Born Again" and being "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" are two DIFFERENT things. Go back and read. I pointed out several times where a person was clearly "born again", and yet had NOT received the Holy Spirit or Tongues, but then LATER received the Holy Spirit and tongues.

Oh, I know that. But, isn't it true - and you're avoiding my question - that having received the Holy Spirit (and 'tongues' for some unknown reason ...??) is evidence of your salvation? If not, what other 'status' does this special 'gift' give you over others that have NOT received 'the gift of tongues'? I believe that YOU must believe that you are sitting on a loftier perch (edifying yourself ...?) than non-'tongue speakers'. Correct?

Once again, I never said that. You are addressing a false doctrine of the "United Pentecostal Church," which I consider a cult and a heresy because they teach "oneness" and an incorrect doctrine of salvation.

But the implication that you have special status by virtue of 'tongue-speaking' abilities is still there. You believe yourself to have a God-given authority that others do not have - WHATEVER side of the homosexual fence they might sit on.

I would not necessarily say "most people on this forum", but many are not saved.

And you have the ability to know this and the authority to state this quite unequivocally because you are Spirit-filled ...correct?

My reasons for saying so have nothing to do with tongues, however, but have to do with moral issues and false doctrines.

I believe Pentecostal 'tongues' to be a false doctrine. And, a MAJOR one at that! The whole Movement revolves around so called 'gifts of the Spirit'. Jesus is NOT enough! Without this false doctrine the entire Movement would collapse into a heap.

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says unto me 'Lord, Lord' will enter in, but he that does the will of my Father."

Okay.

Therefore a person cannot be a real Christian, and at the same time continue in false doctrines about the nature and person of God or his salvation plan. Nor can they continue in willful sin.

Okay.

A tree is known by it's fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit.

If that's to do with homosexuality then I'm not interested in what one does - whether heterosexual or homosexual - in private just as long as 'their fruit' is evident in everyday life. One's 'bedroom habits' are not my concern.

Many people on this forum, and others, do not believe in the Jesus of whom the Bible teaches, but believe in a "another Jesus": one of their own making.

A homosexual can certainly put their trust in a Jesus who had not an unkind word to say about them.

 

[Wade Smith]

I trust this will continue to keep you annoyed and entertained at the same time, LogosRhema.

Tongues, per se are NOT 'gibberish'. They are known languages of the world. Pentecostal 'tongues', however, ARE 'gibberish'. They are meaningless babble.

As said, known languages are not 'gibberish'. Known languages have MEANING to someone who undertands that particular language. 'Gibberish' (i.e. Pentecostal 'tongues') does not.

"Pentecostal tongues" do have meaning and they are known languages. They just are not necessarily known to everyone who happens to hear.

If there is one hispanic in a room, and 40 people speak english only, and some other hispanic walks in and starts talking spanish, they understand one another and whether or not the english people do. The english people might say it is gibberish, but the hispanic that speaks both languages knows that the english don't know what they are talking about...

That's an 'oldie but a goodie' but I like it. It's amazing how many bi-lingual people just happen to be present in a Pentecostal church ready to 'verify' that someone has just spoken in Hebrew, Chinese, Russian, and several other dialects.

Read the Book "Before we Kill and Eat You" (do a amazon search, it costs about 10 dollars last time I checked.)

This OFTEN happens at large churches which have affiliates in several countries and missions and crusades.

Oh, I have INDEED been to a Pentecostal church - a number of times actually - and I've been quite disturbed by some of the so-called 'signs of the Spirit' that I've seen. When it comes to 'Spirit-infilling' the Pentecostals have made up their own doctrines.

Oh yes, I read it. I've read it lots of times. One that edifies HIMSELF (puffing himself up) is doing a disservice to the church. THAT'S a reprimand from Paul, NOT a suggestion that one should do so. Give me another example - just ONE - where ANYONE in the Bible says that one should edify themselves. Edification is done for others.
Response already given. The speaker should NOT be edifying himself.

The problem is, all three times that word "Edifieth" as appears in the King James bible in 1 Corinthians, including both times in 14:4, it is the exact same root word, which is never translated "puff up".

"oikodomeo" - "Build up", build, edify, builder, be in building, embolden.


So you see, you must be consistent. If "oikodomeo" when applied to tongues means that the person "puffs up" himself, then if you were consistent, you would also then be required to say that prophesy "puffs up" the church. But clearly "puff up" is not at all the correct translation.


"Puff up" comes from a completely different word.

"Puff up" "puffed up" "Phusioo" - blowing, inflate, make proud.

This is NOT the word used of "edifying one's self".

Again, "oikodomeo" is the root word for BOTH appearances of the word "edifieth" in verse 14:4. It has no negative conotation.

So, what you're having everyone believe is that God is speaking to Himself through you

...????

Yes.

This is not so difficult to understand is it? Jesus was God in the flesh, the very incarnate "Word that was in the beginning with God," and yet JESUS prayed...God speaking to God. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do..." and many other times we see God speak to God in the New Testament.

Then, The Spirit of God dells in the believer, that is those who have the Holy Spirit. And if "not I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me." Then how is it so foreign to understand that Holy Spirit prays through you?

This is similar to these passages (though obviously not identical contexts):

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

But didn't you just say that you don't understand what it is you're saying? How can you possibly be giving glory to God if you don't understand what it is you're saying.

Let me ask you this. If your supervisor at work hands you a letter, and asks you to deliver that letter to someone in another department, and you do it. Have you honored the request? Yes. Does it matter that you don't know what the letter said? No.

So praying in tongues is like delivering a letter in a sealed envelope. The speaker usually doesn't know what is in the envelope, but by faith they trust that it is the Lord working in them.

Furthermore, if that is somehow true, then - again - God must be giving glory to Himself through you. ????

In a word, again, yes.

John 12:28
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Both speakers in this verse are God. Jesus speaks to the Father, and the Father speaks to Jesus. Both were heard by those standing by.

Hey, God gave me a brain with which to reason things out all by myself. That's the difference between me and a programed robot.

Hey, I definitely am not a programmed robot,a nd hate the doctine of Calvinism or any other brand of fatalism.

I DON'T like the God of the Old Testament too much at all. Jesus is another matter. I find it difficult to believe that He and God are even related. That's how I think and feel. Is it REALLY a sin to think and feel for myself?

Do you believe Jesus was telling the Truth when he spoke John 3:16?

Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament. He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." He told the pharisees that His Father was the same one who they claimed was their God, then later, in the same gospel, he told Philip that "I and my Father are one."

Jesus is the same God who told Samuel to tell Saul to destroy Amelek.

Jesus is the same God who destroyed Jericho.

Jesus is the same God who sent the plague of the First Born on Egypt.

Oh, I know that. But, isn't it true - and you're avoiding my question - that having received the Holy Spirit (and 'tongues' for some unknown reason ...??) is evidence of your salvation? If not, what other 'status' does this special 'gift' give you over others that have NOT received 'the gift of tongues'? I believe that YOU must believe that you are sitting on a loftier perch (edifying yourself ...?) than non-'tongue speakers'. Correct?

1 Cor. 15:41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


I know you think that I am "Puffing myself up" (though I remind you "edify" never has that conotation), but I am not puffing myself up.

Quite the contrary, I am inviting you to accept the fullness of what Christ purchased for you on the cross. God doesn't "force" you to receive Gifts of the Spirit. Like everything that is offered, one asks, seeks, and knocks. and when God extends the hand, one must reach out and accept what is freely given.

I can tell you, I was raised in Pentecostal and non-denominational churches. My parents started out Baptist before they were married, but around the time they married, dad got baptized in the Holy Spirit, and he was used in the "Gift of Tongues" on several occasions.

Now, I can tell you, up until the DAY I was first baptized in the Holy Spirit I absolutely could not STAND to hear someone speak in tongues. Hated it, and considered it embarassing. But since the day I received, I really don't want to shut up about Jesus my Savior, nor the gifts he has given me. I CAN shut up, I'm not forced in any way, but I don't want to, and lately it's like God poured oil on the fire. I love Jesus so much, to me it's like the two boys who are bragging on their dad. "Jesus is the Stronger Man!"

But the implication that you have special status by virtue of 'tongue-speaking' abilities is still there. You believe yourself to have a God-given authority that others do not have - WHATEVER side of the homosexual fence they might sit on.

Ok, I accepted whatever authority God offered me.

I was leading up to this on the previous section.

God offers "Gifts of the Spirit" to everyone.

The question is, "Will you receive?"

It is offered to everyone. You know, its like I just got a free sweet tea around the corner, and I'm bragging on how good it is, and all you gotta do is go around that corner and get one for yourself. Now the fact that I already have the sweet tea just means I happened to be told about it and respond before you. So what? If you go get the thing, you'll have it too.

"Taste and see that the Lord is Good."

You don't have to take my word for it, but I urge you to study the subject with a more open mind, and pray about it.

Ask the Lord to show you the truth about Tongues.

Ask the Lord to overturn the doctrines of man, and to build up what is true and correct what is wrong, to teach you the truth of the whole matter.

Surely there is nothing wrong with such a prayer; for God to teach you and correct you, even if it means destroying pre-conceptions that you consider fundamental. It may not come easy, But God with God anything is easy.

You know, Before Paul met the Lord on the road to Damascus, he went around killing Christians and thinking that he was doing God a service. He probably thought, "I can't believe these Christians think Jesus was actually God. I'm going to go kill those heretics because they're doing the work of the devil."

Obviously I don't know his exact thoughts, but he had to be thinking something like that.

And you have the ability to know this and the authority to state this quite unequivocally because you are Spirit-filled ...correct?

In some cases I can say this on the authority of the scriptures.

If a person does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and does not believe that he in fact is God in the flesh, then they aren't saved/born again.

If someone has a problem with me saying that, don't blame me. The Bible says that many times.

I believe Pentecostal 'tongues' to be a false doctrine. And, a MAJOR one at that! The whole Movement revolves around so called 'gifts of the Spirit'. Jesus is NOT enough!

"Gifts of the Spirit",or rather "Spiritual Gifts" is a term that appears in the Bible. The specific word "Gift" is "Charisma", which I am sure you know.

The purpose of salvation is not so we can just say, "ok, now I'm saved," and then go about our business.

The purpose of salvation is to restore a right relationship with God, which we do not have yet 100% in this mortal body.

Jesus is much more than just a "get out of hell free" card.

Can't a Father give gifts to his children?

Wouldn't the Father be insulted if his children reject his gifts and say, "I just want Jesus!"

Well, we all want Jesus. But Jesus wants to give us things to bless us and to teach us more about himself, and to help us be more Christlike.

So again, on the matter of the Holy Spirit, "Tongues" and "Spiritual Gifts", I pray that you will seek God fervently in this matter. God is able to show you that these wonderful Gifts are for this day and age, and that it is not "high minded" to accept them, but quite the opposite. It is humility, because you then recognize how much you need them and how much God loves you to bless you with them according to his will.

Pray like this, to which I also pray likewise on many an occasion.

"Heavenly Father, I thank you for the wonderous Gift of Salvation and I thank you for everything you have given me in my life. Lord I ask that if I am not receiving every blessing and every Gift you have for me, that you would open my understanding and help me to receive. I do not want to let anything that Christ purchased at the Cross to go to waste, but rather that the Lord glorify his name by blessing me, and by teaching me and correcting me in every wrong way.

Heavenly Father, help me to know the Truth about Jesus and the Holy Spirit and Tongues and other Gifts of the Spirit, for your Word says, "The Truth shall make you free." Deliver me from every mis-conception and pre-conception that I may hold contrary to the Truth, and instead teach me your Word and help me to receive and believe. Lord I want all of you, and I want everything that you have for me, and more importantly for the minstry that you have called me to, for the sake of the saints and for the sake of the souls that you can touch through me. I give all glory to you Lord. In Jesus name. amen"

One's 'bedroom habits' are not my concern.

But they are God's concern, and as well, "Bedroom habits" are themselves "fruit". And even in the new Testament we see Paul himself perform an excommunication because of someone's bad bedroom habits, namely "marrying" his step-mother.

A homosexual can certainly put their trust in a Jesus who had not an unkind word to say about them.

Yes, but when they put their trust in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is going to convict them of the sin of Homosexuality. Else, they have a seared conscience.

 

[LogosRhema]

In the end, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives, one who is truly committed to serving Christ will be worked out day by day, glory into glory, a purification that takes a lifetime to achieve and even then is not enough as human. Regardless if the sin is homosexuality down to cursing like a sailor... In the end God is the one who will work on each of us accordingly.

We're to support each other as athletes in this race, not point out each others flaws. We must trust in the Lord and have faith in knowing He's quietly at work in someone's life... even if we don't see it with our physical eyes.

Changed as a Christian takes time. And with a homosexual christian, its no different.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

 

[KCKID]

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"Pentecostal tongues" do have meaning and they are known languages. They just are not necessarily known to everyone who happens to hear.

If there is one hispanic in a room, and 40 people speak english only, and some other hispanic walks in and starts talking spanish, they understand one another and whether or not the english people do. The english people might say it is gibberish, but the hispanic that speaks both languages knows that the english don't know what they are talking about...



Read the Book "Before we Kill and Eat You" (do a amazon search, it costs about 10 dollars last time I checked.)

This OFTEN happens at large churches which have affiliates in several countries and missions and crusades.

[/color]

The problem is, all three times that word "Edifieth" as appears in the King James bible in 1 Corinthians, including both times in 14:4, it is the exact same root word, which is never translated "puff up".

"oikodomeo" - "Build up", build, edify, builder, be in building, embolden.


So you see, you must be consistent. If "oikodomeo" when applied to tongues means that the person "puffs up" himself, then if you were consistent, you would also then be required to say that prophesy "puffs up" the church. But clearly "puff up" is not at all the correct translation.


"Puff up" comes from a completely different word.

"Puff up" "puffed up" "Phusioo" - blowing, inflate, make proud.

This is NOT the word used of "edifying one's self".

Again, "oikodomeo" is the root word for BOTH appearances of the word "edifieth" in verse 14:4. It has no negative conotation.



Yes.

This is not so difficult to understand is it? Jesus was God in the flesh, the very incarnate "Word that was in the beginning with God," and yet JESUS prayed...God speaking to God. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do..." and many other times we see God speak to God in the New Testament.

Then, The Spirit of God dells in the believer, that is those who have the Holy Spirit. And if "not I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me." Then how is it so foreign to understand that Holy Spirit prays through you?

This is similar to these passages (though obviously not identical contexts):

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.





Let me ask you this. If your supervisor at work hands you a letter, and asks you to deliver that letter to someone in another department, and you do it. Have you honored the request? Yes. Does it matter that you don't know what the letter said? No.

So praying in tongues is like delivering a letter in a sealed envelope. The speaker usually doesn't know what is in the envelope, but by faith they trust that it is the Lord working in them.



[/color]

In a word, again, yes.

John 12:28
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Both speakers in this verse are God. Jesus speaks to the Father, and the Father speaks to Jesus. Both were heard by those standing by.

[/color]

Hey, I definitely am not a programmed robot,a nd hate the doctine of Calvinism or any other brand of fatalism.




Do you believe Jesus was telling the Truth when he spoke John 3:16?

Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament. He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." He told the pharisees that His Father was the same one who they claimed was their God, then later, in the same gospel, he told Philip that "I and my Father are one."

Jesus is the same God who told Samuel to tell Saul to destroy Amelek.

Jesus is the same God who destroyed Jericho.

Jesus is the same God who sent the plague of the First Born on Egypt.




1 Cor. 15:41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.


I know you think that I am "Puffing myself up" (though I remind you "edify" never has that conotation), but I am not puffing myself up.

Quite the contrary, I am inviting you to accept the fullness of what Christ purchased for you on the cross. God doesn't "force" you to receive Gifts of the Spirit. Like everything that is offered, one asks, seeks, and knocks. and when God extends the hand, one must reach out and accept what is freely given.

I can tell you, I was raised in Pentecostal and non-denominational churches. My parents started out Baptist before they were married, but around the time they married, dad got baptized in the Holy Spirit, and he was used in the "Gift of Tongues" on several occasions.

Now, I can tell you, up until the DAY I was first baptized in the Holy Spirit I absolutely could not STAND to hear someone speak in tongues. Hated it, and considered it embarassing. But since the day I received, I really don't want to shut up about Jesus my Savior, nor the gifts he has given me. I CAN shut up, I'm not forced in any way, but I don't want to, and lately it's like God poured oil on the fire. I love Jesus so much, to me it's like the two boys who are bragging on their dad. "Jesus is the Stronger Man!"


[/color]

Ok, I accepted whatever authority God offered me.

I was leading up to this on the previous section.

God offers "Gifts of the Spirit" to everyone.

The question is, "Will you receive?"

It is offered to everyone. You know, its like I just got a free sweet tea around the corner, and I'm bragging on how good it is, and all you gotta do is go around that corner and get one for yourself. Now the fact that I already have the sweet tea just means I happened to be told about it and respond before you. So what? If you go get the thing, you'll have it too.

"Taste and see that the Lord is Good."

You don't have to take my word for it, but I urge you to study the subject with a more open mind, and pray about it.

Ask the Lord to show you the truth about Tongues.

Ask the Lord to overturn the doctrines of man, and to build up what is true and correct what is wrong, to teach you the truth of the whole matter.

Surely there is nothing wrong with such a prayer; for God to teach you and correct you, even if it means destroying pre-conceptions that you consider fundamental. It may not come easy, But God with God anything is easy.

You know, Before Paul met the Lord on the road to Damascus, he went around killing Christians and thinking that he was doing God a service. He probably thought, "I can't believe these Christians think Jesus was actually God. I'm going to go kill those heretics because they're doing the work of the devil."

Obviously I don't know his exact thoughts, but he had to be thinking something like that.




In some cases I can say this on the authority of the scriptures.

If a person does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and does not believe that he in fact is God in the flesh, then they aren't saved/born again.

If someone has a problem with me saying that, don't blame me. The Bible says that many times.



"Gifts of the Spirit",or rather "Spiritual Gifts" is a term that appears in the Bible. The specific word "Gift" is "Charisma", which I am sure you know.

The purpose of salvation is not so we can just say, "ok, now I'm saved," and then go about our business.

The purpose of salvation is to restore a right relationship with God, which we do not have yet 100% in this mortal body.

Jesus is much more than just a "get out of hell free" card.

Can't a Father give gifts to his children?

Wouldn't the Father be insulted if his children reject his gifts and say, "I just want Jesus!"

Well, we all want Jesus. But Jesus wants to give us things to bless us and to teach us more about himself, and to help us be more Christlike.

So again, on the matter of the Holy Spirit, "Tongues" and "Spiritual Gifts", I pray that you will seek God fervently in this matter. God is able to show you that these wonderful Gifts are for this day and age, and that it is not "high minded" to accept them, but quite the opposite. It is humility, because you then recognize how much you need them and how much God loves you to bless you with them according to his will.

Pray like this, to which I also pray likewise on many an occasion.

"Heavenly Father, I thank you for the wonderous Gift of Salvation and I thank you for everything you have given me in my life. Lord I ask that if I am not receiving every blessing and every Gift you have for me, that you would open my understanding and help me to receive. I do not want to let anything that Christ purchased at the Cross to go to waste, but rather that the Lord glorify his name by blessing me, and by teaching me and correcting me in every wrong way.

Heavenly Father, help me to know the Truth about Jesus and the Holy Spirit and Tongues and other Gifts of the Spirit, for your Word says, "The Truth shall make you free." Deliver me from every mis-conception and pre-conception that I may hold contrary to the Truth, and instead teach me your Word and help me to receive and believe. Lord I want all of you, and I want everything that you have for me, and more importantly for the minstry that you have called me to, for the sake of the saints and for the sake of the souls that you can touch through me. I give all glory to you Lord. In Jesus name. amen"



But they are God's concern, and as well, "Bedroom habits" are themselves "fruit". And even in the new Testament we see Paul himself perform an excommunication because of someone's bad bedroom habits, namely "marrying" his step-mother.





Yes, but when they put their trust in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is going to convict them of the sin of Homosexuality. Else, they have a seared conscience.

Thanks for the post. While I obviously don't agree with your stance on 'tongues' (or homosexuality) I DO appreciate the time and the effort that went into your response to my post. And, I wasn't aware of any hint of arrogance in your tone at all. And there could have been since I did possibly goad you. I've gained respect for you. I don't say this to patronize you but to thank you.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Or, most likely, it's an invention of the Pentecostal Church to infer 'a close relationship with God'.

Its not going to be easy convincing someone who doesn’t believe God’s word about same sex unions being error (Romans 1) if they don’t believe so much else of the Bible. Tongues are not an invention of Pentecostal churches but given by the Holy Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 12-14.

 

[KCKID]

Its not going to be easy convincing someone who doesn’t believe God’s word about same sex unions being error (Romans 1) if they don’t believe so much else of the Bible. Tongues are not an invention of Pentecostal churches but given by the Holy Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 12-14.

'Tongues' are simply 'languages'. Okay? All you need to do when you come across that word in the Bible is to substitute it with 'foreign language' and you'll do very well. 'Tongues' served their purpose prior to the canons of scripture being made available to the entire world. They have now ceased. Pentecostal 'tongues' have NOTHING to do with scriptural tongues.

As for not believing that the Bible is God's word I can tell you quite confidently that the ENTIRE Bible was written by the likes of you and me, bms. Lowly human beings. Do you dispute that fact? And, attempting to make yourself appear to be 'holy' by belittling me doesn't cut any ice with me. There is no way that you can convincingly prove that the Bible is the word of God no matter how many times you SAY that it is. I don't know whether the Bible is the word of God or not ...maybe it is. But, I can't KNOW for certain that it is. If God wanted a perfect book then why did He get IMperfect human beings to author it ...why did He not write it Himself?

As for same sex unions being error ...it's all in your head, bms. You're obviously obsessed with what goes on in people's bedrooms. Deal with it.

 

[KCKID]

Addendum. It's also useful to know that 'Angel speak' was commonly used by some of the pagans-cum-Christians in the Church of Corinth. Paul is evidently reprimanding some for the use of this ungodly practice which is the result of a highly emotionally charged state of mind. Actually, the Church of Corinth sounds somewhat like many Pentecostal churches of today. Of great significance ...there is no mention of the phenomena of 'tongues' (whether used as foreign languages or 'Angel-speak') after 1 Corinthians.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Dear KCKID,
I am sorry to have to tell you that as I don&#8217;t think you believe the Bible I am not likely to believe what you say unless it agrees with the Bible.
No the Bible speaks of other languages and tongues, which is what I was pointing out to you.
In Acts 2 there were different languages, but were they in Acts 10.
1 Corinthians 14:2 &#8220;For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. &#8220; People understand languages so bang goes another of your theories.

 

[brightmorningstar]

.

 

[KCKID]

Dear KCKID,
I am sorry to have to tell you that as I don’t think you believe the Bible I am not likely to believe what you say unless it agrees with the Bible.

But, you CAN count on my honesty when I do respond to a scriptural issue, bms. Not believing the Bible (or more, 'questioning' the Bible and trying to understand it better) does not mean that I don't have a grasp of what someone is trying to get across. I'm no slouch when it comes to the issue of 'tongues'. 1 Corinthians 13 & 14 are possibly the most misinterpreted chapters in the entire Bible. In fact, an entire CHURCH and its tenets was spawned from this misinterpretation of scripture! The Azuza Street Revival started it off and it has snowballed in popularity ever since. That's the power of 'religion' for you!

No the Bible speaks of other languages and tongues, which is what I was pointing out to you.

In Acts 2 there were different languages, but were they in Acts 10.
1 Corinthians 14:2 “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. “ People understand languages so bang goes another of your theories.

You have no idea what the above means, bms, and yet you present it as though you do. There is absolutely no reason to change the meaning of 'tongues' as established in Acts to mean something different in 1 Corinthians. They were 'languages' that could be understand by nationals of that particular language. One needs to understand what was going on in the Church of Corinth at the time of Paul's epistles to that church. It was a most unruly church that was plagued with numerous problems including unbridled immorality and paganistic 'angel-speak'. Remember 'the tongues of angels' (1 Corinthians 13.1) ...? That text has NOTHING to do with God! The Church of Corinth was immature and unspiritual. Any number of its congregants worshiped Aphrodite and participated in temple prostitution. This is why Paul appears to be so frustrated when dealing with all of these issues. It was hardly a Church that one would go out of their way to model a present-day church on.

Unless one has an understanding of the history of that Church they have no business stating anything on these said issues with any assurance or authority.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
I have presented what the Bible says my friend, it is clear you dont believe it.

 

[kiwimac]

And yet the Bible in talking of tongues in respect of the Pentecost event, speaks of them as understandable tongues readily understood by those people from the countries of origin.

 

[KCKID]

To KCKID,
I have presented what the Bible says my friend, it is clear you dont believe it.

Presenting what the Bible says (re 'tongues' and homosexuality) and actually UNDERSTANDING what the Bible says about these issues BEFORE you present them are a decided advantage, bms.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
I have presented what the Bible says as the answer to the question. Its evident you either dont understand it or dont believe it. This discussion is now totally dysfucntional, you have no trouble understanding the meaning of what I write as long as it isnt the Biblical text.

Your point is incorrect, in acts the people recognised the langauges, in Corinthians the tongues are not speaking to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. QED

 

[KCKID]

And yet the Bible in talking of tongues in respect of the Pentecost event, speaks of them as understandable tongues readily understood by those people from the countries of origin.

Absolutely. One needs to read Acts from the beginning to understand WHY the Holy Spirit gave the Apostles the ability to speak to foreigners in their own tongues (languages). It was based on a command from Jesus that the Apostles be WITNESSES in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and in fact the whole world. It was to spread the gospel message of salvation to people in their own language and for NO OTHER REASON. It was intended as a means to edify others ...NEVER ONE'S SELF.

The Pentecostals have taken this 'gift' that was given to the Apostles for a SPECIFIC PURPOSE and for a SPECIFIC PERIOD OF TIME and made something 'mystic' about it to further their own ends. It began early last century with the Azuza Street Revival. This is when people began 'babbling' in a highly emotionally charged manner claiming it to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Since then, the Charismatic Movement have also included 'slaying in the Spirit', 'holy laughter' (The Toronto Blessing), cackling like barnyard animals, and other questionable acts in their arsenal of so-called 'gifts of the Spirit'.

To top it off they have the audacity to condemn homosexual marriage and state unequivocally that it's 'unscriptural'. Sheesh!!

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
But I am not disputing the Acts event was to spread the gospel message, I am dealing with the 1 Corinthians event.
So address the 1 Corinthians event and don&#8217;t try and make out pentecostals and Charismatics wholsale as non believers when it looks like you are the one who doesn&#8217;t believe the 1 Corinthians text, or even the Acts account fully as some thought they were drunk.

To top it off they have the audacity to condemn homosexual marriage and state unequivocally that it's 'unscriptural'. Sheesh!!

The Bible condemns homosexual acts, all they do unlike you is believe the word of God.

 

[KCKID]

To KCKID,
I have presented what the Bible says as the answer to the question. Its evident you either dont understand it or dont believe it. This discussion is now totally dysfucntional, you have no trouble understanding the meaning of what I write as long as it isnt the Biblical text.

Your point is incorrect, in acts the people recognised the langauges, in Corinthians the tongues are not speaking to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. QED

I will not continue debating an issue with someone who has not a clue what they are talking about. Just remain smug in your own cocoon with what you choose to believe, bms ...we must not cloud the issues with actual FACTS now, must we?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To KCKID,
Unlike you I will willingly debate with someone who hasnt got a clue what they are talking about. After all it is a debating forum and debating is the purpose.
Alas I have addressed the Acts account you mentioned, but you havent addressed the 1 Corinthians account except seemingly deny it. What I believe is what the Biblical passage which I quoted says. If you dont think I have a clue what I am talking about you obviously dont have a clue what the Bible says, and in this respect therefore you dont know the truth.

 

[KCKID]

To KCKID,
But I am not disputing the Acts event was to spread the gospel message, I am dealing with the 1 Corinthians event.
So address the 1 Corinthians event and don’t try and make out pentecostals and Charismatics wholsale as non believers when it looks like you are the one who doesn’t believe the 1 Corinthians text, or even the Acts account fully as some thought they were drunk.

The Bible condemns homosexual acts, all they do unlike you is believe the word of God.

Okay, bms. Do you know anything about the Church of Corinth in Paul's day? If not I would suggest that you do a little research because you will then see what this whole 'tongues' thing was all about. The entire message in 1 Corinthians 13/14 concerns LOVE. Paul is saying to these rather corrupted Corinthians (some VERY corrupted, it would seem) that whatever they might do in church is absolutely of no benefit if there is no love involved. Besides Pentecostal 'tongues' being unscriptural, let us look at the matter logically. Do you seriously think that people within the Church of Corinth who are evidently devoid of love and are being 'coached' in this area by Paul would actually be given a 'gift' by the Holy Spirit to begin with? Of course not. Not unless the Holy Spirit is totally lacking in discernment in regard to on whom He bestows 'special gifts'.

I have seen a number of faked 'tongues' over the years, bms, including those who later confessed that it was a sham. If the Holy Spirit can't do any better than those who can 'fake it and fool others' then so much for the Holy Spirit.