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'I know not man...'What makes you think she was shocked at all?
It says Gabriel's greeting troubled her.
Gabriel said thou shalt conceive, not you & your husband will have a son.
What you say she knew is total speculation & your way of "denying to read it as is".
Evidently God wanted to.Fool Satan? Please.. God does not need to fool anyone.. He is God
yes, it says she was not knowing, not she had not known. it demonstrates an ongoing condition.
I repeat again..Not really. For Mary's calling was to give birth to Christ.. Not to remain a PV
But you just wrote words to say that.
Didja speak em first?
Just kidding with you, but Jesus said
"it is Written" too.
(what happened to our laz discussion lion?
I lost sleep over that!! It was my pleasure
though. I think Rick agrees with your part.
TOLD ya no one would buy my idea)
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During her betrothal she says she knows NOT man...
Which means she did NOT ever intend to know man.
Guess you don't know then.
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No.
I'm not married. That doesn't mean it is a dogmatic fact of the highest importance and certainty that I am a PERPETUAL bachelor, lol....
I hope you see the baselessness of your argument, my good and long respected friend....
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Ok, lets get this straight...and LET'S PRETEND you are a woman and your name is Josie.Josiah said:No.
I'm not married. That doesn't mean it is a dogmatic fact of the highest importance and certainty that I am a PERPETUAL bachelor, lol....
I hope you see the baselessness of your argument, my good and long respected friend....
IF an angel comes to you while you are engaged to be married [which is the closest concept we have for be being betrothed] with your fiance - and they tell you [we shall skip the greeting because it explains the magnitude of Mary's 'pre saved'] ...
Anyway, the angel says to you 'Josie, You shall conceive a Son and name him Mark...'
NOW - wouldn't you assume the angel was referring to the consumated relationship with your spouse after the nuptials??
And please - be honest.
She can't. Sorry
Sorry buddy - you didnt answer the direct question.When I said that I AM single, that is a factual statement.
It does NOT mean that it is a dogmatic FACT that I am a PERPETUAL bachelor.
What part of that don't you understand, my good and respected friend?
Now, how does this address the singular issue of how we KNOW, how we dogmaticatically confirm to the very highest possible degree of certainty, that Mary had sex NOT ONCE EVER? Because, my good friend, a "rumor" is a popularly and perhaps long held report or story that is not substantiated, and the Catholic Catechism says that spreading a rumor is a SIN and thus NOT LOVING (the issue of this thread). Therefore, for this issue of highest importance and greatest certainty, this story about a surpemely personal, intimate aspect of Our Blessed Lady's life, there is but ONE ISSUE - is it dogmatically substantiated? If it's not, then we are sinning by speading it according to the Catholic Catechism. AND because this is an issue of great, GREAT, potential for personal offense, pain, hurt and embarrassment to Our Mother, the chief of saints, the Mother of God, whom we love, adore, esteem and revere, doesn't it matter if it's true?
My mum taught me that before I spread a rumor, I need to ask myself two questions: is it true and is it kind? Perhaps Catholic mothers do not teach this to their children.
.
Ok, I will wait.Ok, lets get this straight...and LET'S PRETEND you are a woman and your name is Josie.
IF an angel comes to you while you are engaged to be married [which is the closest concept we have for be being betrothed] with your fiance - and they tell you [we shall skip the greeting because it explains the magnitude of Mary's 'pre saved'] ...
Anyway, the angel says to you 'Josie, You shall conceive a Son and name him Mark...'
NOW - wouldn't you assume the angel was referring to the consumated relationship with your spouse after the nuptials??
And please - be honest.
True true...She can speak to her Son, just as the mothers of Jewish kings always gave
She can speak to her Son, just as the mothers of Jewish kings always gave
Howdy Sphinx. I saw this:
Josiah said:When I said that I AM single, that is a factual statement.
It does NOT mean that it is a dogmatic FACT that I am a PERPETUAL bachelor.
What part of that don't you understand, my good and respected friend?
Now, how does this address the singular issue of how we KNOW, how we dogmatically confirm to the very highest possible degree of certainty, that Mary had sex NOT ONCE EVER? Because, my good friend, a "rumor" is a popularly and perhaps long held report or story that is not substantiated, and the Catholic Catechism says that spreading a rumor is a SIN and thus NOT LOVING (the issue of this thread). Therefore, for this issue of highest importance and greatest certainty, this story about a surpemely personal, intimate aspect of Our Blessed Lady's life, there is but ONE ISSUE - is it dogmatically substantiated? If it's not, then we are sinning by speading it according to the Catholic Catechism. AND because this is an issue of great, GREAT, potential for personal offense, pain, hurt and embarrassment to Our Mother, the chief of saints, the Mother of God, whom we love, adore, esteem and revere, doesn't it matter if it's true?
My mum taught me that before I spread a rumor, I need to ask myself two questions: is it true and is it kind? Perhaps Catholic mothers do not teach this to their children.
Sorry buddy - you didnt answer the direct question.
The only ones who would spread rumors would be the ones who are not in the know.
Because rumors are not truth - and those who know the truth are not spreading rumors.[/quote]
1. No, a rumor by definition is an unsubstantiated report or story. It MAY be true, it MAY be false but it's not known if it's true or false because it is unsubstantiated. It may be popularly held, it may be anciently held, but it's a rumor because it's unsubstantiated. The Catholic Catechism specifically states that to spread a rumor is to SIN, thus it seems that is THE issue of this thread, for is it LOVING to sin against someone?
2. Okay, then quote those who would KNOW about Mary's most personal, private, intimate aspect of her relationship with her husband? In other threads, I have asked for just ONE person (I've even okay'ed a heretic, a liar, one entirely without any credibility - I'm just looking for SOMEONE!!!!) who personally knew Mary (thus, could theoretically know this surpremely private, personal detail) and who specifically stated that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin. But, so far, no quote from no such person has been offered. Thus, you are getting to one of the issues here: NO ONE "in the know" (or even POTENTIALLY "in the know") has EVER substantiated this veiw - or even expressed a personal UNsubstantiated opinion that it's true.
SO those who are saying she didnt remain a virgin, or argue many of the facts regarding Mary
No. There are only THREE denominations on the planet (out of the 30,000 Catholics argue exists) that have ANY official view regarded Mary's sex life, and all three of those regard it as DOGMA that she never once had sex - ever, not once, nope. This, they argue, is a matter of greatest importance and highest certainty: Mary NEVER had sex. The ball, my good friend, is thus entirely in your court....
NO Protestant denomination, known to me, has ANY dogma (or even doctrine) about Mary's sex life. How often she did it, how she did it, where she did it - NOTHING about it. YOU are the one insisting this is an issue of highest importance, not any Protestant denomination. YOU are the one stating that it is DOGMA and thus requiring dogmatic substantiation. The ball, my good friend, is thus entirely and only in your court....
Whats the honest answer?
The fact that I AM a bachelor has absolutely ZERO relevance to whether I will die as a PERPETUAL bachelor. In the same way, Mary stating that "I AM a virgin" does not dogmatically substantiate that she is a PERPETUAL virgin. It's simply grammar, my good friend. THAT is my honest answer, and you still haven't answered my question as to why my answer is dogmatically impossible.
.
Ok, going with that mind set - you know you WILL THEN consumate your relationship in the future and therefore it would come as NO SURPRISE you would conceive a child.You didn't answer any of mine...
Review what I posted (as you quoted) and note the question marks.
But AGAIN, my answer is that "I am" does not mean "I will perpetually always be." Seems like third grade grammar to me.... I AM single, it doesn't mean that it is a dogmatic fact of the highest certainty that I'm a PERPETUAL bachelor. What part of that isn't clear to you, my friend?
Perhaps this sort of issue was never placed in the NT [aside from her own obvious words to the angel] - so as NOT to cause a scandal to Mary's purity. Drawing attention to things that would cause ppl to have impure thots regarding her.1. No, a rumor by definition is an unsubstantiated report or story. It MAY be true, it MAY be false but it's not known if it's true or false because it is unsubstantiated. It may be popularly held, it may be anciently held, but it's a rumor because it's unsubstantiated. The Catholic Catechism specifically states that to spread a rumor is to SIN, thus it seems that is THE issue of this thread, for is it LOVING to sin against someone?
2. Okay, then quote those who would KNOW about Mary's most personal, private, intimate aspect of her relationship with her husband? In other threads, I have asked for just ONE person (I've even okay'ed a heretic, a liar, one entirely without any credibility - I'm just looking for SOMEONE!!!!) who personally knew Mary (thus, could theoretically know this surpremely private, personal detail) and who specifically stated that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin. But, so far, no quote from no such person has been offered. Thus, you are getting to one of the issues here: NO ONE "in the know" (or even POTENTIALLY "in the know") has EVER substantiated this veiw - or even expressed a personal UNsubstantiated opinion that it's true.
No. There are only THREE denominations on the planet (out of the 30,000 Catholics argue exists) that have ANY official view regarded Mary's sex life, and all three of those regard it as DOGMA that she never once had sex - ever, not once, nope. This, they argue, is a matter of greatest importance and highest certainty: Mary NEVER had sex. The ball, my good friend, is thus entirely in your court....
NO Protestant denomination, known to me, has ANY dogma (or even doctrine) about Mary's sex life. How often she did it, how she did it, where she did it - NOTHING about it. YOU are the one insisting this is an issue of highest importance, not any Protestant denomination. YOU are the one stating that it is DOGMA and thus requiring dogmatic substantiation. The ball, my good friend, is thus entirely and only in your court....
The fact that I AM a bachelor has absolutely ZERO relevance to whether I will die as a PERPETUAL bachelor. In the same way, Mary stating that "I AM a virgin" does not dogmatically substantiate that she is a PERPETUAL virgin. It's simply grammar, my good friend. THAT is my honest answer, and you still haven't answered my question as to why my answer is dogmatically impossible.
.
Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
You didn't answer any of mine...
Review what I posted (as you quoted) and note the question marks.
But AGAIN, my answer is that "I am" does not mean "I will perpetually always be." Seems like third grade grammar to me.... I AM single, it doesn't mean that it is a dogmatic fact of the highest certainty that I'm a PERPETUAL bachelor. What part of that isn't clear to you, my friend?
If you figured out that in the near future you would soon be married - you wouldnt say to the angel - well how will i have a child since i am going to remain a bachelor??
Your idea makes no sense to me, CJ. SINCE you know you are getting married you would not say 'how'...UNLESS you intended to remain celibate. THEN i could see how it would be a puzzle.It would be rather obvious...wouldnt it?
when you review the passage closely you will find that MARY does NOT assume her condition will EVER ONCE CHANGE.
Josiah said:1. No, a rumor by definition is an unsubstantiated report or story. It MAY be true, it MAY be false but it's not known if it's true or false because it is unsubstantiated. It may be popularly held, it may be anciently held, but it's a rumor because it's unsubstantiated. The Catholic Catechism specifically states that to spread a rumor is to SIN, thus it seems that is THE issue of this thread, for is it LOVING to sin against someone?
2. Okay, then quote those who would KNOW about Mary's most personal, private, intimate aspect of her relationship with her husband? In other threads, I have asked for just ONE person (I've even okay'ed a heretic, a liar, one entirely without any credibility - I'm just looking for SOMEONE!!!!) who personally knew Mary (thus, could theoretically know this surpremely private, personal detail) and who specifically stated that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin. But, so far, no quote from no such person has been offered. Thus, you are getting to one of the issues here: NO ONE "in the know" (or even POTENTIALLY "in the know") has EVER substantiated this veiw - or even expressed a personal UNsubstantiated opinion that it's true.
Perhaps .....
For real - how distasteful it would have been [and imho now] to discuss her chastity.
Josiah said:No. There are only THREE denominations on the planet (out of the 30,000 Catholics argue exists) that have ANY official view regarded Mary's sex life, and all three of those regard it as DOGMA that she never once had sex - ever, not once, nope. This, they argue, is a matter of greatest importance and highest certainty: Mary NEVER had sex. The ball, my good friend, is thus entirely in your court....
The ball is in our courtJosiah said:
NO Protestant denomination, known to me, has ANY dogma (or even doctrine) about Mary's sex life. How often she did it, how she did it, where she did it - NOTHING about it. YOU are the one insisting this is an issue of highest importance, not any Protestant denomination. YOU are the one stating that it is DOGMA and thus requiring dogmatic substantiation. The ball, my good friend, is thus entirely and only in your court....
The fact that I AM a bachelor has absolutely ZERO relevance to whether I will die as a PERPETUAL bachelor. In the same way, Mary stating that "I AM a virgin" does not dogmatically substantiate that she is a PERPETUAL virgin. It's simply grammar, my good friend. THAT is my honest answer, and you still haven't answered my question as to why my answer is dogmatically impossible.
That is suffice to proove that it was a Tradition from the start and it should be evidence that it is not a new founded opinion such as today from those who have no historical teachings prior to 1500 AD or 1800 AD...
...So, why do 3 denominations INSIST on discussing it as the highest level of importance?....
I have a question: You have repeated about the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception being Dogma. Why is the issue of such importance to you?