1Cor2:14 is not "Calvinistic"

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by BridgetMarie:
Not only can they not grasp the Gospel, but they hate the light and will not come to it. John 3:19-21 gives us such a clear picture of unregenerate man:

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For whoever does wicked things hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

This passage shows clearly that God is the causation of any man coming to the light. And we cannot conclude that this simply means He draws all men to the light because it is emphasizing that when GOD is behind it, they will come. John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me."

It is so beautifully clear that it is ALL of God.​

Hi, "Bridget-Marie". Welcome.

Do you accept that John6:44 uses "helkuo-draw-DRAG", and that John12:32 ALSO uses "helkuo-draw-drag"?

"If I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL MEN to Myself". Not "some", not "some-of-all-types", not "some-few-PREDESTINED", but "all".

Rom11:32 says "God has mercy on ALL". Not "some", not "few", but "all".

Please read John5:39-47 -- not all men who are taught, choose to accept it.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by BridgetMarie:
Not only can they not grasp the Gospel, but they hate the light and will not come to it. John 3:19-21 gives us such a clear picture of unregenerate man:

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For whoever does wicked things hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

This passage shows clearly that God is the causation of any man coming to the light. And we cannot conclude that this simply means He draws all men to the light because it is emphasizing that when GOD is behind it, they will come. John 6:44:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me."

It is so beautifully clear that it is ALL of God.​

Hi, "Bridget-Marie". Welcome.

Do you accept that John6:44 uses "helkuo-draw-DRAG", and that John12:32 ALSO uses "helkuo-draw-drag"?

"If I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL MEN to Myself". Not "some", not "some-of-all-types", not "some-few-PREDESTINED", but "all".

Rom11:32 says "God has mercy on ALL". Not "some", not "few", but "all".

Please read John5:39-47 -- not all men who are taught, choose to accept it.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Justsurfing:
Hi Ben,

There is no such thing as the disjointed Spirit. Think of the Spirit as a "pop up"... like taking positional "space".

There is nothing that is of the Spirit outside the Spirit.

There is nothing contrary to the Spirit in the Spirit.

In or out.

Think of salvation as "in or out" of the Spirit.

There is no salvation outside of the Spirit.

There is no believing outside of the Spirit.​

Hi, "Justsurfing". Always a pleasure to read your posts. Your kindness and intelligence always shines through.

Receiving the Spirit, is by belief; thus, this verse (1Cor2:14), is removed from Calvinistic discussions.

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There is no faith outside of the Spirit.​

Then how is the Spirit received? Please reference Acts10:43-47, and 11:17.

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Why aren't people saved? Because, pivotally locationally, they are not in the Spirit.​

Because they do not believe.

QUote:
When does the Bible declare people are saved? When the Spirit is in them.

Soooo... just this simple.

We are born according to this flesh in mere humanity outside the Spirit at a certain dimension. The Spirit is not in us.

There's an inter-relationship there. If we are not in the Spirit - the Spirit is not in us... and we are not saved.

BUT... when the Spirit is in us - we are in the Spirit... and we are saved.

SO... what needs to happen here??

The Spirit has to come inside of us.

Any questions.

Nice to see you, Ben. See the Spirit as a tangible Person who is Spirit... and see.

Grace and peace.​

You are right, the Spirit must indwell us. But that happens THROUGH BELIEF.

In Acts10:43-47, Peter equates "receive" with "fell-upon", and "gifted", and "poured"; and 11:17 plainly says "receive the Spirit AFTER believing".

No questions here; how about you?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by RTE:
Ben has left because he was not able to tell us what his "election" actually did.

But when he resurfaces with new zest, we'll ask him again.​

Belief causes election. Not vice-versa.

Look at all the posts I've just made; you will not be able to refute the Scriptural positions. I wish you would try, and not just tell people "don't play his game".

My "game", is correctly exegeting God's inspired word. Nowhere does it assert "sovereign-election".

Yet, this thread, is 1Cor2:14 --- it can never again be used in Calvinistic discussions.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Praying for a speedy recovery for Ben.​

Whatever our differences, "MamaZ", you are a blessing to me, and my life is better for having known you.

I pray that I have been a blessing in your life.

Quote:
Hi Ben I hope you are feeling better and that all is well with you.​

Thank you. They haven't figured out yet exactly where I'm injured, but I'm confident they will.

God bless you, and use all of us mightly in His great harvest. Whatever our differences here, may we grow together in Christ and in loving fellowship with each other.

We are not opponents; Calvinists or not, we are brothers and sisters in Him.

 

[moonbeam]

My "game", is ...

I know what your game is mr johnson

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by NBF:
Both the preaching of the Cross, which is the Gospel, and the things of God, which are spiritual, are deemed to be foolish to the natural man, the ones who are perishing.​

And you have conspicuously ignored 1Cor1:21 --- God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness to save those WHO believe.

I haven't ignored it, Ben, It doesn't say what you so desperately need it to say. The word "through" is part of a phrase "through the foolishness of preaching". You cannot separate the word from its use, as you are doing. The phrase is also rendered by some translators as "By the foolishness of preaching" or "By means of the foolishness of preaching" which more clearly shows the intent here. You have seized on the word "through", and imbued it with the idea of "tunneling" as in getting from one side to another. That's not how the word is used here, and the Greek doesn't support you at all. This is a blatant case of eisegesis.

Men can believe THROUGH what was previously "foolish" --- it is belief that changes the message from "foolish", to "power". Calvinism can only say, "Oops".

No, the Calvinist doesn't say "Oops". The Calvinist laughs because you are so clearly distorting God's Word, desperately trying to find a way to counter Calvinist Theology on this point.

You've picked a very foolish way to do it, too, because it is so transparent to anyone with even a minimal education in English. I have that education. My mother was an English teacher as well. I grew up learning how to properly speak, spell, and use words and phrases correctly, and how to properly diagram, analyze, and interpret what others say. I have learned the single best thing: words mean things, and you must carefully choose them. I also learned a lot about farming and gardening, but that is another discussion.

You cannot provide one scripture which says that faith changes the message from foolish to powerful. Not one. You are once again reading into God's Word things that simply ARE NOT THERE. This is a prime example.

Paul is declaring that the method of delivery of the Gospel is by means of what the world considers a foolish method: Preaching. It is by means of this method that the Gospel is spread. Fits perfectly with Paul's statement that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. God chose a foolish method to spread the gospel to confound those who are wise in their own conceits, so that only those whom the Spirit enlightens will understand and receive it as what it is: spiritual truth.

Paul makes it clear that those who are perishing are walking after the flesh, and cannot be subject to the Law of God. Such are those who perceive the Preaching of the Cross (the Gospel) as foolishness.

You would be hard pressed to make a case that the Gospel is not one of the "Things of God", because Paul indicates that it is, by his assessment that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, because they are foolish to him, and those who are perishing perceive the Gospel as foolishness.​

​

There is no case --- the THINGS in both verses (12 & 14), are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit.

The Spirit is received by belief. No "hard pressed", no "case", no denying.

You need some instruction in English, methinks, Ben. I have made the case, and I have knocked out the prop under one of your most-often-used defenses, and you cannot say that I haven't. There is no requirement in scripture that the Spirit must be received before it can reveal things. if God, by His Spirit, could make a donkey talk, then he doesn't need to indwell to reveal truth to men. QED

Paul himself makes the connection.

Two things which are both described the same way are logically synonymous. They are the same thing.​

​

Go back and read the context of the very verses you just cited --- and add to it Col3:1ff, "set your minds above, and not below".

WE (the saved) can walk after the flesh, if WE do WE must die. Or we can by the Spirit put to death the flesh, and live.

Your position is that "we (the saved) can NEVER die" --- that is, walking after the flesh to perishing, is not possible for the truly elect.

Paul says it is.

And here is where you try to veer off into another direction, as you so often do. You have a fundamental inability to stay on one subject. Let's stick to the subject, shall we?

Stop declaring that Calvinists cannot speak of this passage as we understand it. Your opinion is that we can't, but your opinion is not the final word. We will continue to speak of it. Your own poll at the top of the thread shows that you have lost in your bid to remove this passage from discussion, a bid which you never could have won, anyway. So, like it or not, you lost, and we will continue to speak of it, and you will not silence us, and refrain from attempting to silence us for doing so. Deal with it, bubba.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
I haven't ignored it, Ben, It doesn't say what you so desperately need it to say. The word "through" is part of a phrase "through the foolishness of preaching". You cannot separate the word from its use, as you are doing. The phrase is also rendered by some translators as "By the foolishness of preaching" or "By means of the foolishness of preaching" which more clearly shows the intent here. You have seized on the word "through", and imbued it with the idea of "tunneling" as in getting from one side to another. That's not how the word is used here, and the Greek doesn't support you at all. This is a blatant case of eisegesis.​

You proved my point --- per Calvinism, it would have to cease being "foolish", so that they could believe. In no sense could he have penned "God is pleased, THROUGH/BY/BY-MEANS-OF foolishness to save those who believe", if it must cease BEING foolish BEFORE someone can believe.

Quote:
No, the Calvinist doesn't say "Oops". The Calvinist laughs because you are so clearly distorting God's Word, desperately trying to find a way to counter Calvinist Theology on this point.​

It looks successful to me, not desperate.

QUote:
You've picked a very foolish way to do it, too, because it is so transparent to anyone with even a minimal education in English. I have that education. My mother was an English teacher as well. I grew up learning how to properly speak, spell, and use words and phrases correctly, and how to properly diagram, analyze, and interpret what others say. I have learned the single best thing: words mean things, and you must carefully choose them. I also learned a lot about farming and gardening, but that is another discussion.​

I like that --- "words mean things". I look forward to your comments on the "The Arminian Game Semantics" thread.

Quote:
You cannot provide one scripture which says that faith changes the message from foolish to powerful. Not one. You are once again reading into God's Word things that simply ARE NOT THERE. This is a prime example.​

What does 2Tim3:15 say to you? Where does saving-faith come from, in that verse?

Quote:
Paul is declaring that the method of delivery of the Gospel is by means of what the world considers a foolish method: Preaching. It is by means of this method that the Gospel is spread. Fits perfectly with Paul's statement that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. God chose a foolish method to spread the gospel to confound those who are wise in their own conceits, so that only those whom the Spirit enlightens will understand and receive it as what it is: spiritual truth.​

It doesn't say "Foolish to the REST, but you'll believe because you're elected and it's NOT foolish to you".

It says, "God is please to save those who, THROUGH the foolishness of the message, believe."

Though the message appears "foolish" to the lost, it still has the power to save.

Quote:
You would be hard pressed to make a case that the Gospel is not one of the "Things of God", because Paul indicates that it is, by his assessment that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, because they are foolish to him, and those who are perishing perceive the Gospel as foolishness.​

There is no "hard pressed", at all --- it's clearly stated.

The THINGS of verse 14, are the SAME THINGS of verse 12. The received Spirit reveals those things.

The Spirit is received by belief. You know the verses (see Eph1:13, Acts11:17, etcetera).

Quote:
You need some instruction in English, methinks, Ben. I have made the case, and I have knocked out the prop under one of your most-often-used defenses, and you cannot say that I haven't. There is no requirement in scripture that the Spirit must be received before it can reveal things. if God, by His Spirit, could make a donkey talk, then he doesn't need to indwell to reveal truth to men. QED​

PDC. It is not a "requirement", it is stated fact.

QuoteAnd here is where you try to veer off into another direction, as you so often do. You have a fundamental inability to stay on one subject. Let's stick to the subject, shall we?[/color]​

With respect, accusations of "side-tracking" is avoidance of clear Scriptural correlation.

Quote:
Stop declaring that Calvinists cannot speak of this passage as we understand it. Your opinion is that we can't, but your opinion is not the final word. We will continue to speak of it. Your own poll at the top of the thread shows that you have lost in your bid to remove this passage from discussion, a bid which you never could have won, anyway. So, like it or not, you lost, and we will continue to speak of it, and you will not silence us, and refrain from attempting to silence us for doing so. Deal with it, bubba.​

I see only four choices:

1. Provide some way of explaining how the Spirit is received, apart from belief.
2. Explain how the "things" of verse 14, are different from the "things" of verse 12.
3. Accept that this verse does NOT assert "regeneration is required before men can believe in Christ".
4. Ignore the clear facts in the passage, pretend it's not refuted, keep citing 1Cor2:14 --- and everyone will perceive that citation as stubbornly non-credible.

 

[themuzicman]

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

This verse doesn't say anything about where faith comes from. It speaks of who we believe in.

Muz

 

[MamaZ]

So from what I am understanding from some here is that they deny that God is soverein ruler over all that He has created and that mans choice is the rule?

 

[themuzicman]

Not at all. God retains sovereignty. But it is a just sovereignty. He is the ultimate law, judge and executioner for the actions of men. That is real sovereignty. No man can escape the coming judgment, save through Jesus Christ. God's law is absolute, and all men are subject to it.

However, God's word is also absolute, and when God gave dominion to men having free will, we became responsible for our own actions, both the consequences that we suffer here, and the final judgment, which God will render at the end of this age.

This isn't to say that God isn't and doesn't act in our world to bring about His will, but only in accordance with His Word, both spoken and written.

Muz

 

[MamaZ]

Not at all. God retains sovereignty. But it is a just sovereignty. He is the ultimate law, judge and executioner for the actions of men. That is real sovereignty. No man can escape the coming judgment, save through Jesus Christ. God's law is absolute, and all men are subject to it.

However, God's word is also absolute, and when God gave dominion to men having free will, we became responsible for our own actions, both the consequences that we suffer here, and the final judgment, which God will render at the end of this age.

This isn't to say that God isn't and doesn't act in our world to bring about His will, but only in accordance with His Word, both spoken and written.

Muz

Show me where God has given men dominion over their own destiny? I see where God gave Adam the commandment and the consequence. Adam as we see disobeyed therefore giving up his dominion to the enemy for this is where sin entered and death followed.

 

[MamaZ]

We also see that the enemy has dominion now in this world. As we see in scripture.
Act 26:15 "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
Act 26:16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
Act 26:17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
Act 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

 

[themuzicman]

Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."​

The word "Subdue", here, has the connotation of bringing into bondage or having dominion over. (Princeton BDB)

So, unless you want to assert that all children were to come from Eve, we can see this as a command to mankind to be fruitful and multiply, and then to subdue or take dominion over the earth.

And no one can take dominion over something from God, if God has not given dominion to them.

However, as you mentioned, God also set a tree in the garden, probably to remind Adam and Eve that God is still sovereign, and He may forbid as He wishes, thus the tree and the command with penalty.

Muz

 

[themuzicman]

We also see that the enemy has dominion now in this world. As we see in scripture.
Act 26:15 "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
Act 26:16'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
Act 26:17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
Act 26:18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

This looks to me like a spiritual dominion: Those who are apart from God in Satan's kingdom/dominion, and those who have been reconciled to God through faith are in the Kingdom of God. It fits very nicely with how both Matthew and Luke describe the Kingdom of God.

Muz

 

[beloved57]

those who have been reconciled to God through faith are in the Kingdom of God

Faith does not reconcile, Christ death does..rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

God gives the elect Faith to recieve the knowledge of this truth..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Muzicman:
This verse doesn't say anything about where faith comes from. It speaks of who we believe in.​

Sure it does --- faith comes from wisdom (which is "conviction") from studying Scripture.

...not "unilateral gift from God"...

Contrast this with John5:39-47, those who study Scripture but REFUSE to believe. Jesus even tells why...

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
So from what I am understanding from some here is that they deny that God is sovereign ruler over all that He has created and that mans choice is the rule?​

No, God's sovereignly allows Him to provide salvation as a freely-chosen-gift; man rejecting His gift, does not conflict His sovereignty at all.

...but God sovereignly decreeing from the beginning specific billions and billions of people who WILL PERISH, and there's nothing they can do about it, conflicts His nature of "just" and "cannot cause sin/temptation/evil".

Likewise, God sovereignly decreeing from the beginning all who WILL be saved, is "unjust", is "partial", and renders the Cross, pageantry.

Clearly stated throughout Scripture is the principle that men are responsible for choosing Him, or for rejecting Him in favor of sin. 1Cor5:10, Rom2:6-8 for instance...

 

[heymikey80]

Ben, the reason it's quoted as if it's not been refuted is quite clearly because it's not been refuted. After over a hundred postings on the subject, you haven't convinced those who do cite the passage in 1 Cor 2 that you've refuted any aspect of their assertion. 1 Cor 12 deals with wisdom from God, and it's clear that those with the Spirit have the wisdom of God. It's also clear that those who are unspiritual do not have this wisdom. You state that there are no carnal Christians -- and Paul states that there are no spiritual people who are not "us", just Greeks and Jews and rulers looking for wisdom and signs they can't find and can't see or receive.

The passage does not sit down and address the question of whether spiritual wisdom is the dividing line between belief and unbelief. Why you're jumping to trying to prove what it doesn't say, well, no matter, but it does argue against your view. If you have to prove Paul assumes something he doesn't say in this passage, and that is clearly a long-winded conclusion on its own, then your refutation is already lost.

But the passage does address the question of whether someone who accepts spiritual wisdom is actually spiritual. If only Christians are spiritual people, of only believers are spiritual, Paul has already said the carnal person doesn't accept this wisdom. So -- end of story. Non-Christians can't accept this wisdom, because they're carnal.

You're not getting anywhere with this refutation because it's built on a vast array of assumptions you haven't established as true. Not least is your order of salvation. You've demonstrated that by assertions you're pressing into John 6 and John 1 (which again, are not established and acutely controverted, so can't be used to refute a position on 1 Cor 2).

If you flew all thousand pieces of your theology in formation, they might deny some position you wish to deny -- within your theology. But that hasn't really refuted anything either. That would say that your particular theology would not accept such a position. It would say nothing about other theologies.

Those who disagree with you don't think the thousand pieces of your theology will actually fly in the first place.

And making the assertion that your position is drawn from Scripture and thus must be Scripture's only real meaning, that doesn't help your cause, either. It essentially means you're not answering other proposals for what Scripture means. You're simply jumping from one idiosyncratic view of a prooftext to another. When we point out one idiosyncratic view doesn't fly in context, you jump to another verse -- which in our view doesn't fly in context, either. And so, since you don't concentrate on a specific verse in its context, the argument falls apart. No one Scripture is being considered for what it means and what it can't mean and what it permits. If the pieces don't perform as advertised, then the assembly of those pieces is unlikely to fly.

 

[MamaZ]

Quoted by MamaZ:
So from what I am understanding from some here is that they deny that God is sovereign ruler over all that He has created and that mans choice is the rule?
​

No, God's sovereignly allows Him to provide salvation as a freely-chosen-gift; man rejecting His gift, does not conflict His sovereignty at all.

...but God sovereignly decreeing from the beginning specific billions and billions of people who WILL PERISH, and there's nothing they can do about it, conflicts His nature of "just" and "cannot cause sin/temptation/evil".

Likewise, God sovereignly decreeing from the beginning all who WILL be saved, is "unjust", is "partial", and renders the Cross, pageantry.

Clearly stated throughout Scripture is the principle that men are responsible for choosing Him, or for rejecting Him in favor of sin. 1Cor5:10, Rom2:6-8 for instance...

Your Idea of "just" is in human terms. For justly we all deserve death and Hell. For we have all sinned and came very short of the Glory of God. This is why we see it written that He will have Mercy on who He will have mercy. That is why the choosing is His and not ours. Predestination is according to HIS plan and not the plans of man.