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1Cor2:14 is not "Calvinistic"

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Ben johnson, Aug 24, 2008.

Is 1Cor2:14 now excluded from Calvinism discussions?

  1. Yes --- "receive" means "believe", and precedes "reveal"

  2. No, regeneration precedes saving-faith AND receiving-the-Spirit (agree to explain this in a post)

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  1. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    One of the frustrations in "theological debate", is when a verse has been proven to not assert what someone thought it asserted --- but regardless of how many times that proof is given, that same verse keeps getting cited as if it's never been discussed. Can we "put to rest" all the Calvinistic assertions about this verse?

    "A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

    Many Calvinists read this and think, "Ah-HAH! Natural men cannot believe savingly in Christ, therefore regeneration MUST come FIRST!"

    Paul's intent is clear when we read verse 12:
    "We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God."

    Let's see if we can agree on certain absolutes.
    1. The THINGS in verse 12, are the same THINGS as in verse 14.
    2. Those things, are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit.
    2b. The Spirit is received, and THEN spiritual things are revealed.
    3. The Spirit is not received BEFORE belief.
    4. Therefore, "saving-faith" can NOT be one of the "things" in verse 12 & 14.

    Believe -> receive-Spirit -> understand spiritual things​

    That's what Paul said. Calvinists cite the verse with this sequence:

    regeneration -> understand-spiritual-things -> believe-receive-Spirit

    Because it is the RECEIVED-BY-BELIEF Spirit who reveals spiritual THINGS, those "things" can NOT include "saving-belief in Jesus".


    Thus one of four eventualities MUST occur:

    1. Explain how the Spirit is received BEFORE a person believes in Jesus
    2. Explain how "belief" can occur at any time EXCEPT after "understand-spiritual-things"
    3. Accept that "receive" dictates that belief occurs BEFORE "understand-spiritual-things"

    4. Ignore this post, pretend Paul did NOT place "receive" before "understand-spiritual-things", keep citing 1Cor2:14 as if it's never been exposed to NOT be "Calvinistic".


    I'm linking a poll here --- "refuted" (in Calvinistic understanding), or "NOT-refuted" (you'll be expected to explain in detail, why not)...
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
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  2. DArceri

    DArceri Exercise daily -- walk with the Lord.

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    It is called enlightenment. The Word (Light) evokes a response in His lost sheep...Why are there people that are still left in the dark AFTER they hear the same message or see the same miracles in Jesus' day?.... Jesus said, His sheep RECOGNIZE the shephards voice (Jn 10:3-4, 16, 27). ....Jesus told the Pharasees, you believe not because you are not of my flock.

    Without His Spirit, any sort of beleif is the result of man's own wisdom and knowledge who God is. The muslims beleive the God of Abraham, and also they beleive in the person of Jesus and all his miracles that were performed, but, have they recieved the Spirit? Listen, a god that one creates in one's own mind for their own benefit is not true belief. True belief occurs only when the knowledge of God in the person of Christ is revealed by the Spirit of God. Only then can one claim to have been given the gift of belief (faith).

    When miracles were being done by Jesus, many believed at first but then showed their true colors when either persecution came or when threatened by the Pharasees to be kicked out of the synogogue. Unless God makes Himself 'known', many will fall away in disbelief (like those who wanted to crucify Jesus after saying they believed in Him---ie. they prooved they were not true believers in the first place).





    Listen, everyone has an in-born belief that a God exists. Creation speaks of Him (Common garce is given to all)..... However, only those who recieve the Spirit of Christ can truly claim to be believers in Christ, for the Spirit reveals who the person of Christ is, and the person of Christ reveals who the Father is. Without the Spirit of God, man is left to his own wisdom and knowledge of who the God of this world is. And if the revelation of who Christ is the key to eternal life, then man needs to recieve His Spirt BEFORE TRUE BELIEF CAN TAKE PLACE.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  3. RTE (Road to Emmaus)

    RTE (Road to Emmaus) Well-Known Member

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    1. The THINGS in verse 12, are the same THINGS as in verse 14.
    2. Those things, are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit.
    And the natural man of 1 Cor 2:14 is called "the natural man" because he hasn't received the Spirit.

    So you defeat yourself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  4. Eric_C

    Eric_C Regular Member

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    Regeneration=Believe=spiritual understanding

    All part of, and initiated in..., the same event, that is; they occur simultaneous and are the beginning of an ongoing process.


    I didn't vote because your terms are not accurate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  5. Blood

    Blood Newbie Supporter

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    Ignore this post,
    The only words of substance contained within the opening post.
     
  6. nobdysfool

    nobdysfool The original! Accept no substitutes!

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    The OP is ridiculous, and smacks of desperation. Ben has been getting his can kicked here lately, as more and more people are seeing through the fog he generates. His book is vapor-ware, it will never be published. And his posts here are probably indicative of what his purported book will be written like. It's destined to be a doorstop or paperweight if it ever sees print. A case of them would make an excellent boat anchor.....

    The poll attached is equally ridiculous, it is not a true choice between opposing options, but is designed to stack any responses as arguments in his favor, no matter which way it's answered.
     
  7. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    No, we cannot, and I find it rather funny that you're looking to take a poll...as though majority rule somehow has anything to do with truth. Several times over I've explained this passage, and regardless of the fact I know you will weasel out and not respond yet again, I will once again provide the explanation that you are unable to overcome.



    There are several glaring errors here.

    First is the notion that the "things" of verses 12 and 14 are exactly the same. The word "things" appears six times just in this chapter. To insist that such a broad ranging word as "things" refers to the same specific items every time it is used is simply poor hermeneutics.

    The fact that the particular spiritual things Paul speaks of early in the chapter are clearly deeper truths of God does not therefore mean that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not a spiritual thing. Paul's words in 1 Cor 2:14 perfectly coincide with his words in 1 Cor 1:18. In the latter, the word of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, and in the former the natural man does not accept the things of God for they are foolishness to him. Moreover, he CANNOT because such things are spiritually discerned.

    The message is abundantly clear: the word of the Cross is a spiritual truth, one which natural man finds foolishness and cannot understand because the Spirit has not given him discernment.

    I know what you will say, Ben. You will offer up the most absurd of explanations: that man will put his full faith and trust in something he finds utterly foolish. One could easily cite that as a definition of insanity. To expect that man's salvation depends upon his willingness to trust in something he finds untrustworthy is itself foolishness.

    Again, the things revealed by the received Spirit as referred to by Paul were the deeper things of God he was in turn imparting to the believers. It still does not change the fact that verse 14 lays forth a much more encompassing principle: that unregenerate men do not and cannot accept the things of God for they find them foolishness, and the word of the Cross is counted among those things.

    The Holy Spirit need not indwell a person to reveal things to him or give him understanding. That it is the indwelling Spirit that reveals the deeper things of God to Paul does not preclude the Spirit from operating in such a manner (as it clearly does throughout Scripture).

    It cannot, which is precisely the dilemma you put yourself in when it comes to chapter one, where you are forced to offer up the absurdity that men embrace foolishness.



    Nope. Again, you would have us believe that men must believe in things they don't understand and find foolishness in order to then understand them. That, my friends, is insanity.

    "Zero credibility" is resorting to taking a headcount to determine whether or not somebody can cite a verse of Scripture in an argument.

    "Zero credibility" is claiming nobody can answer your points when you refuse to acknowledge the posts of someone who answers every single one of them.

    Please understand, I do mean that respectfully.

    Let me ask you this, Ben. If the poll turns out to be overwhelmingly against you, would you stop all the complaining about the fact that we continue to use the verse? I certainly expect that if it turns out in your favor you will constantly point to it as reason we cannot use it.
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    QUoted by Darceri:
    It is called enlightenment. The Word (Light) evokes a response to His sheep...
    Hi, "Darceri". The verse says the RECEIVED Spirit reveals the "Spiritual things". The Holy Spirit is not received before belief. Please see Eph1:13, and Acts11:17.
    Quote:
    Why are there people that are still left in the dark AFTER they hear the same message or see the same miracles in Jesus' day?.... Jesus said, His sheep RECOGNIZE the shepherd's voice (Jn 10:3-4, 16, 27). ....Jesus told the Pharasees, you believe not because you are not of my flock.
    Good citation --- that's another passage that's been refuted, time and time and time again.

    Jews: "If You are the Messiah, then tell us plainly."
    Jesus: "I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you do not believe (that I'm the Messiah).
    .....You do not believe (that I'm the Messiah), because you are not of My flock.

    If ANYONE (tis) enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture (become My sheep)." John10:26-28, 9


    Further, in verse 25 Jesus says "My works give testament of Me." Connect this with verse 38, "If you do not believe Me, then believe My works, and you will know I'm in the Father and the Father is in Me." --- and Jesus is saying "you can believe in Me just by looking at what I've DONE."

    This fully opposes "predestined-belief"; but explains the rebukes in places like Matt11:21-24, and John5:39-47. Saving-belief is man's choice, not God's.
    Quoted by Ben:
    2. Explain how "belief" can occur at any time EXCEPT after "understand-spiritual-things"
    Quoted by Darceri:
    Without His Spirit, any sort of belief is the result of man's own wisdom and knowledge who God is. The muslims believe the God of Abraham, and also they believe in the person of Jesus and all his miracles that were performed, but, have they recieved the Spirit? Listen, a god that one creates in one's own mind for their own benefit is not true belief. True belief occurs only when the knowledge of God in the person of Christ is revealed by the Spirit of God.
    But that’s not what Scripture says. Contrast 2Tim3:15, with Jn5:39-47.

    Connect John20:29 (“you believe BECAUSE you see?”), with Matt11:21-24 (“If THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED; I tell you it will go better for THEM in the Judgment, than for YOU.”)
    Quote:
    Only then can one claim to have been given the gift of belief (faith).
    There is the problem --- "belief/faith" (saving) is not gifted. Look only at 2Tim3:15 --- saving-faith come from WISDOM (which you denied) which comes from studying the Scripture. Contrast this with the rebuke in John5:39-47, where they DO study but REFUSE to learn. Jesus even tells why.

    "BECAUSE you seek men's glory and NOT God's." Not "because you were not sovereign-chosen".
    Quoted by Ben:
    3. Accept that "receive" dictates that belief occurs BEFORE "understand-spiritual-things"
    Quoted by Darceri:
    When miracles were being done by Jesus, many believed at first but then showed their true colors when either persecution came or when threatened by the Pharasees to be kicked out of the synogogue. Unless God makes Himself 'known', many will fall away in disbelief (like those who wanted to crucify Jesus after saying they believed in Him).
    Scripture plainly says that true believers, can become unbelievers. It’s in Rom11:21-23, in Heb3:6-14 (see 4:11, in light of 3:18-19!); it’s in Col2:6-8, it’s in 2Jn1:7-9 --- and many other places.
    Quoted by Ben:
    4. Ignore this post, pretend Paul did NOT place "receive" before "understand-spiritual-things", keep citing 1Cor2:14 as if it's never been exposed to NOT be "Calvinistic"
    Quoted by Darceri:
    Listen, everyone has an in-born belief that a God exists. Creation speaks of Him..... However, only those who recieve the Spirit of Christ can truly claim to have a real belief. For the Spirit reveals who the person of Christ is, and the person of Christ reveals who the Father is. Without the Spirit of God, man is left to his own wisdom and knowledge of who the God of this world is. And if the revelation of who Christ is the key to eternal life, then man needs to recieve His Spirit BEFORE TRUE BELIEF CAN TAKE PLACE.
    Nowhere is the Spirit, received before belief. If I’m wrong, show me where it says that. I cited Eph1:13 (taking “sealed” to mean “poured/gifted/fell-upon/RECEIVED”, see Acts10:43-47.) I cited Acts11:17, stated by Peter clearly and undeniably. (Don’t forget verse 15.) There is no way that “received” happens before belief in Jesus, and there is no way that 1Cor2:14 conveys that “spiritual things must be revealed BEFORE a man can believe and receive the Spirit”.
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Quoted by NBF:
    The OP is ridiculous, and smacks of desperation.
    Then show us, from Scripture, how/why it's "ridiculous/desperate".
    QUote:
    Ben has been getting his can kicked here lately...
    Where? What post(s)?

    Ben cites Scripture, and the responses are generally "You've been refuted but won't admit it". It would be a more impressive "can-kicking", if you peppered your posts with supporting Scriptures.
    Quote:
    as more and more people are seeing through the fog he generates. His book is vapor-ware, it will never be published. And his posts here are probably indicative of what his purported book will be written like. It's destined to be a doorstop or paperweight if it ever sees print. A case of them would make an excellent boat anchor.....
    Strong words; but what if you cannot refute the theology, from Scripture?
    QUote:
    The poll attached is equally ridiculous, it is not a true choice between opposing options, but is designed to stack any responses as arguments in his favor, no matter which way it's answered.
    Then re-write the poll as you think it should be done. I might even change the poll to suit, if I agree.

    Is there any way to propose that "THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT", and "the things freely given by God, taught to us by the Spirit combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words" --- that those two THINGS, are not the SAME?

    If not, then is there any way therefore to deny that the THINGS in verse 14, are revealed to us by the received Spirit?

    And if not again, then how is the Spirit received BEFORE belief?

    You are cordially invited to respond to my previous post to Darceri. And regarding what you said about my book, perhaps you'll motivate me to finish the re-write and submit it.

    :)
     
  10. frumanchu

    frumanchu God's justice does not demand second chances Supporter

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    My refutation, from Scripture, is in post 7 above. I "explained, in detail, why not." I met your challenge.

    Unless you are willing to address it, I think it's clear that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is still a quite valid verse to be cited by proponents of Reformed Theology. :)
     
  11. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    This interpretation assumes there must be a cause effect among receiving, believing, and understanding, when the relationships aren't cause effect.

    This is demonstrated by the other examples Paul uses.
    Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 1 Cor 2:6
    The wisdom can't come from people who are rulers in this age. But why'd they miss it? Why wouldn't at least someone pick up on it if it's so understandable to him?
    None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor 2:8
    Paul asserts that their understanding would have resulted in their avoiding the Crucifixion. Yet God didn't permit them to understand it -- and I've little doubt their 'Zero credibility!' charge simply came from an inability or a refusal to understand the data as reality.

    So those who are not regenerate, Paul points out they didn't understand the wisdom of the Spirit. :wave: That's not all Paul is talking about. He's talking about a much larger footprint here. Paul is recognizing that even people with the Spirit may not completely understand what they're receiving. He points to maturity being a mark of those who understand the wisdom of the Spirit. And Paul isn't saying everyone is mature.

    Those who have received the Spirit and who have matured under His care, they understand how this may be. Through (not caused-by, but instrumentally through the use of) their believing, they become familiar with a new economy. They understand the extent to which this economy has changed the old economy of "work for wages" righteousness.

    "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord." 1 Cor 14:37

    So what happens in between? How does someone without the Spirit understand anything? How does he mature to receive the Spirit? Well, it starts where it starts -- with "New Birth". That's necessary to even begin understanding. When someone is born again, regenerated spiritually, they hear the spiritual importance of the words.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The Spirit blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:6-8

    What's regeneration produce?

    "we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:11-15

    It produces faith. Faith comes from a regenerated heart -- but the Spirit is responsible for the regenerated heart, not anyone else.

    a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. Rom 2:29

    "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." Acts 7:51


    Finally, how does someone who has received the Spirit, but is immature, how do they develop? They develop through being educated, trained, and walking in the Spirit. Born again people have a life -- they grow. They develop by learning the thought processes, living out the economy of the Spirit.

    we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. Col 1:9b-10
     
  12. RTE (Road to Emmaus)

    RTE (Road to Emmaus) Well-Known Member

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    The meaning at 1 Cor 2:14 is probably, along with Act 13:48, the pièce de résistance of Calvinism.

    1 Cor 2:14 tells us that the natural man does not willingly receive the things of God (God's ideas and the ideas about God), because he thinks they are foolish.

    To then say that such a man can nevertheless believe them, is like saying that a man can be two men at the same time.

    It goes without saying that any man who chooses to not receive the things of God because he thinks they are foolish, is a man who also does not believe such things.



    I strongly suggest to fellow Calvinists that you no longer contribute to this thread, as although some ideas of the opposition can be given some attention to some degree, this one is beyond absurdity and therefore any attention to it is a waste of the limited time God has given you to live out your days. It is simply a thread purposely designed to waste your time by asking you to prove that black is not white. Always remember that Ben Johnson is grinning as he writes.
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Quoted by heymikey80:
    This interpretation assumes there must be a cause effect among receiving, believing, and understanding, when the relationships aren't cause effect.
    Hi, Mike. The Holy Spirit is received after belief --- that's fully established in Acts11:15-17, connected with 10:43-47. And it is the RECEIVED Spirit that reveals the "spiritual things" of 1Cor2:14.

    If you're looking for solid exegesis that refuses denial, this is it.
    Quote:
    This is demonstrated by the other examples Paul uses.
    Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 1 Cor 2:6

    The wisdom can't come from people who are rulers in this age. But why'd they miss it? Why wouldn't at least someone pick up on it if it's so understandable to him?
    None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor 2:8
    Look at what happened in John10 --- they didn't understand Jesus' Messiahship, because they hadn't believed in Jesus. The structure of "cause and effect" places "belief", as causal. Look at Jesus' words in John5:39-47 --- they studied Scripture but REFUSED to believe in the Messiah that Scripture foretold --- WHY? "BECAUSE you seek men's glory rather than God's. Do not think I will accuse you --- MOSES, in whom you've set your hope, will accuse you. Moses wrote of Me --- IF you believed Moses, THEN you would believe Me. But IF you DO NOT believe Moses, HOW will you believe Me?"
    Quote:
    Paul asserts that their understanding would have resulted in their avoiding the Crucifixion. Yet God didn't permit them to understand it -- and I've little doubt their 'Zero credibility!' charge simply came from an inability or a refusal to understand the data as reality.
    You're not understanding "cause and effect" properly. It's not because God did not permit them to understand, it's because they didn't really follow God. John8:42 says "If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I came from the Father. But you do not understand what I say, BECAUSE you cannot hear, (because) you are of your father the devil." Pure volition. Established beyond denial in John5:39-47, and John8:42.
    Quote:
    So those who are not regenerate, Paul points out they didn't understand the wisdom of the Spirit.
    Not what he says at all --- they didn't undersand the deeper things of the Spirit, because they had not received Christ. THAT is what is happening in 1Cor2:12-14. "Received" (the Spirit), is "believed in Jesus".
    QUote:
    That's not all Paul is talking about. He's talking about a much larger footprint here. Paul is recognizing that even people with the Spirit may not completely understand what they're receiving. He points to maturity being a mark of those who understand the wisdom of the Spirit. And Paul isn't saying everyone is mature.
    The theme of this thread, is "1Cor2:14 does not assert 'regeneration is necessary TO understand Jesus' salvation'."

    The clincher is "received" --- this denotes belief, and belief PRECEDES the "spiritual revelations" of verse 12 and 14. It is fact, and not open to interpretation.
     
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Quote:
    Those who have received the Spirit and who have matured under His care, they understand how this may be. Through (not caused-by, but instrumentally through the use of) their believing, they become familiar with a new economy. They understand the extent to which this economy has changed the old economy of "work for wages" righteousness.
    How does "through" not mean "caused-by"? Faith causes salvation (1Pet1:9), in that faith RECEIVES God's gift (and receives the Spirit). This is the biggest flaw in Calvinism, which asserts that faith is CONSEQUENTIAL rather than causal.
    Quote:
    "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord." 1 Cor 14:37

    So what happens in between? How does someone without the Spirit understand anything? How does he mature to receive the Spirit? Well, it starts where it starts -- with "New Birth". That's necessary to even begin understanding. When someone is born again, regenerated spiritually, they hear the spiritual importance of the words.
    You're reversing John 1:12 --- those WHO believe and receive Christ gain the right to BECOME children of God.

    "Born-Again", does NOT precede "receive/believe Jesus". You would have to reverse John1:12 to deny this, and you cannot.
    Quote:
    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The Spirit blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:6-8
    Does not help you; don't forget the rebuke in verse 10, Nick was a teacher and should have KNOWN all this. (Which denies "sovereign-gifted-faith".)
    Quote:
    What's regeneration produce?

    "we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
    Wait --- see it? IF you do not believe earthly, HOW can you believe heavenly? What's the "cause and effect"? This is identically the same as "IF you do not believe Moses (a choice!), HOW will you believe Me?"
    Quote:
    No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:11-15

    It produces faith. Faith comes from a regenerated heart -- but the Spirit is responsible for the regenerated heart, not anyone else.
    No, belief is causal.
    Quote:
    a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. Rom 2:29
    And there's still Rom2:3-8. God's kindness is MEANT to lead to repentance, those who were NOT repenting. No "predestination".
    Quote:
    "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you." Acts 7:51[/collor]
    That's right --- a plain rebuke TOWARDS belief, no predestination.
    QUote:
    Finally, how does someone who has received the Spirit, but is immature, how do they develop? They develop through being educated, trained, and walking in the Spirit. Born again people have a life -- they grow. They develop by learning the thought processes, living out the economy of the Spirit.

    we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. Col 1:9b-10
    The whole of Colossians stands against any form of "OSAS". 2:6-8 warns against "falling away", 3:1-17 warns those who HAVE BEEN CHOSEN of God, to KEEP seeking heavenly things and NOT seek earthly sin.

    In terms of "sovereignly-born-again" who ALWAYS SEEK God, this is a big "whoops".
     
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Quoted by RTE:
    The meaning at 1 Cor 2:14 is probably, along with Act 13:48, the pièce de résistance of Calvinism. And as such, both passages are shown to be NOT "Calvinistic", therefore Calvinism is overturned.
    Quote:
    1 Cor 2:14 tells us that the natural man does not willingly receive the things of God (God's ideas and the ideas about God), because he thinks they are foolish.

    To then say that such a man can nevertheless believe them, is like saying that a man can be two men at the same time.
    In the first place, the thread is about 1Cor2:14 NOT being "Calvinistic proof" --- the problem is "RECEIVED". The RECEIVED Spirit reveals the spiritual things of verses 12 & 14. Since "received" is by belief in Jesus, the verse does NOT assert "can't believe in Jesus without revelation of those spiritual things".

    "Received", precedes "reveal-spiritual-things". There's no way around this, RTE. The verse is gone from the "prooftext-box".
    Quote:
    It goes without saying that any man who chooses to not receive the things of God because he thinks they are foolish, is a man who also does not believe such things.
    Have you not read 1Cor1:18-21? "God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those WHO believe." The message appears foolish to the lost; yet THROUGH that foolishness God saves those WHO believe. Calvinism can only say "oops".
    Quote:
    I strongly suggest to fellow Calvinists that you no longer contribute to this thread, as although some ideas of the opposition can be given some attention to some degree, this one is beyond absurdity and therefore any attention to it is a waste of the limited time God has given you to live out your days. It is simply a thread purposely designed to waste your time by asking you to prove that black is not white. Always remember that Ben Johnson is grinning as he writes.
    I strongly suggest you review this thread on Acts13:48:
    http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=14498

    And recognize that the Jews UNELECTED THEMSELVES, therefore as many of the GENTILES who were inclined, believed.

    And I strongly suggest you accept that "RECEIVED", precedes "reveal-spiritual-things", and that "received" means BELIEF in Jesus.

    It's not effective to say "Just ignore Ben when he makes points that cannot be overturned".

    Overturn them, or re-consider "Predestination".


    BTW the idea of "grinning-Ben", is belittling; it is denying that Ben is backing everything up with precise and detailed Scriptural citations, which he is.

    :)
     
  16. themuzicman

    themuzicman Senior Member

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    The ultimate refutation of the Calvinist view of 1 Cor 2:14 is found in 1 Cor 3:1-3

    1 Cor 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?​

    (Emphasis mine)

    Notice that the Corinthians, whom Paul calls brothers and are clearly saved, are not able to receive these spiritual things.

    Muz
     
  17. nobdysfool

    nobdysfool The original! Accept no substitutes!

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    In that sense, it applies as much, if not more so to the anti-Calvinists here. But, you are inserting meaning into the passage that does not exist, trying to find a way to bash Calvinism and Calvinists. Calling Calvinists "babes in Christ", "not able to discern spiritual things", "worldy" is just another way to insult Calvinists, and look down your nose at them.

    Sorry, but your assessment is not wanted, appreciated, or accurate.
     
  18. themuzicman

    themuzicman Senior Member

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    Excuse me? I'm pointing out that the "spiritual things" Paul refers to in 1 Cor 2:14 (and, indeed from 2:6-3:3), were not grasped yet by Christians in Corinth.

    You can make personal attacks all you want, but the truth is there. These "spiritual things" cannot refer to salvation.

    Muz
     
  19. nobdysfool

    nobdysfool The original! Accept no substitutes!

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    So, Salvation is not a spiritual thing? if not, please explain how that can be.
     
  20. themuzicman

    themuzicman Senior Member

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    I didn't say that salvation wasn't spiritual. I just said that it wasn't one of these spiritual things, which Paul is referring to, here.

    (However, you DO believe that resurrection is Physical, right?)

    Muz
     
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