1Cor2:14 is not "Calvinistic"
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Acts 10:34 (King James Version)
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Colossians 3:25 (King James Version)
25But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
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To take the position that one must first be spiritually regenerated (born again) before they can understand even the milk of the things of God, makes God a respector of persons. As was already pointed out in a post in this thread, there exists in every born again person a carnal side. When that carnality becomes noticable and an influence, the Apostle Paul called that person and those people carnal even though they are saved born again Christians:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed with you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Cor:3:1-3)
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Look closely at (1Cor.2) notice how the Apostle Paul contrasts himself with those false teachers who were pretending to be genuine Apostles because they came across as professional speakers. Paul does this from verse 1-4. Now look closely from verse 6-16. He contrasts himself and the rest of the true Apostles with those false Apostles:
1 Corinthians 2 (King James Version)
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
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It is true that all those born again receive a measure of the spirit and as they study they grow spiritually and understand more and more of the word of God. The New Testament teaches that everyone receives the chance to submit to the Gospel when they hear or read it. It is their choice to receive or reject it.
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Colossians 3:25 (King James Version)
25But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To take the position that one must first be spiritually regenerated (born again) before they can understand even the milk of the things of God, makes God a respector of persons. As was already pointed out in a post in this thread, there exists in every born again person a carnal side. When that carnality becomes noticable and an influence, the Apostle Paul called that person and those people carnal even though they are saved born again Christians:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed with you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Cor:3:1-3)
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Look closely at (1Cor.2) notice how the Apostle Paul contrasts himself with those false teachers who were pretending to be genuine Apostles because they came across as professional speakers. Paul does this from verse 1-4. Now look closely from verse 6-16. He contrasts himself and the rest of the true Apostles with those false Apostles:
1 Corinthians 2 (King James Version)
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
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It is true that all those born again receive a measure of the spirit and as they study they grow spiritually and understand more and more of the word of God. The New Testament teaches that everyone receives the chance to submit to the Gospel when they hear or read it. It is their choice to receive or reject it.
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The New Testament teaches that everyone receives the chance to submit to the Gospel when they hear or read it.
Did the Apache Indians of 1412 recieve the chance to submit to the Gospel?
It is their choice to receive or reject it.
Was it their choice to be denied it?
Did the Apache Indians of 1412 recieve the chance to submit to the Gospel?
It is their choice to receive or reject it.
Was it their choice to be denied it?
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1 cor 2 14 teaches that unless one is spiritually capacitated [ by newbirth] they will not understand spiritual truth..
They may think they do, but they dont..
The reason why, because the natural mind is described like this..
col 1:
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Its alienated from God, it is under satans control..nothing but newbirth can change this..with a new mind..
They may think they do, but they dont..
The reason why, because the natural mind is described like this..
col 1:
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Its alienated from God, it is under satans control..nothing but newbirth can change this..with a new mind..
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themuzicman
Senior Member
The problem with your doctrine is that the Corinthians weren't spiritual, but they were saved. Again, all we need do is look to chapter 3:1-3 to see that the Corinthians couldn't grasp what a spiritual person should be able to.
Muz
Muz
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They were, anyone born again is spiritual..They acted carnally I agree, but they were still spiritual, you have to be to recieve the gospel..
1 cor 15:
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 cor 2:
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things
You dont know hat you talking about..a many spiritual people born again, may act out in the flesh which they retain until the day of redemption..
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themuzicman
Senior Member
Wow.. your inability to read the bible for what it says is astounding.
First, in 1 Cor 2:12, Paul is speaking about the mature, and contrasting them with the Corinthians. There is simply no way that the Corinthians are spiritual based upon that verse.
Second, the gospel cannot be included in the spiritual things of 2:6-ff, because:
They were not spiritual people and couldn't be addressed as spiritual people, because they were still flesh.
In short, the way Paul addresses the Corinthians in reference to the spiritual things of 2:6-ff excludes them from having grasped those things. This, combined with the fact that they were saved excludes the gospel from the spiritual things of 2:6-ff
Muz
First, in 1 Cor 2:12, Paul is speaking about the mature, and contrasting them with the Corinthians. There is simply no way that the Corinthians are spiritual based upon that verse.
Second, the gospel cannot be included in the spiritual things of 2:6-ff, because:
1 Cor 3:1 people of the flesh, asBut I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual, but as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3for you are still of the flesh.
They were not spiritual people and couldn't be addressed as spiritual people, because they were still flesh.
In short, the way Paul addresses the Corinthians in reference to the spiritual things of 2:6-ff excludes them from having grasped those things. This, combined with the fact that they were saved excludes the gospel from the spiritual things of 2:6-ff
Muz
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Paul never denied they were spiritual..because they were having recieved the gospel..he merely said i could not speak to you as unto spiritual but as carnal..
1 cor 3:
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
The very fact that he fed them milk proves they were spiritual..
1 pet
2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
The babes are spiritual..
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themuzicman
Senior Member
Well, this is now entirely your invention, and in contradiction to what Paul wrote.
I think that pretty much clears this up.
Muz
I think that pretty much clears this up.
Muz
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yeah right, go fly a kite some where, you are not a bible teacher..i plainly showed you what scripture teaches..a babe in christ is spiritual..
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themuzicman
Senior Member
No, you showed where they were drinking milk, and ignored what Paul actually says about them, namely that they could not grasp the things that someone who is spiritual is able to grasp.
Muz
Muz
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A spiritual babe drinks milk..the milk is spiritual milk not literial milk lol..
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Quoted by NBF:
You have not destroyed my position, but rather confirmed it. The only error you make is in your last sentence, which you purport to be your conclusion. This conclusion does not follow from what you said before.
Your position is destroyed. One of the things I wish to establish between us (meaning "us-Responsible-Grace" and "us-Calvinists"), is the reality that there is no such thing as "Carnal Christian". In rebuking people towards maturity, Paul is rebuking them towards SALVATION. We who are saved, are "in Christ" --- and He is IN US. There is no "immature/carnal/sinful/BELIEVING-SAVED". It is rather like being pregnant --- one either IS, or is NOT.You have not destroyed my position, but rather confirmed it. The only error you make is in your last sentence, which you purport to be your conclusion. This conclusion does not follow from what you said before.
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The Gospel is part of the Spiritual Things of God, and as such, none of the Spiritual Things of God (including the Gospel) is understood or accepted by the natural man, because the natural man cannot discern spiritual things. Therefore, it is perfectly scriptural to say that 1 Cor 2:14 DOES refer to all who are operating as natural man, both saved and unsaved.
This verse flat states that the same "spiritual things" between verse 12 and verse 14, are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit. Thus the sequence is iron-clad:The Gospel is part of the Spiritual Things of God, and as such, none of the Spiritual Things of God (including the Gospel) is understood or accepted by the natural man, because the natural man cannot discern spiritual things. Therefore, it is perfectly scriptural to say that 1 Cor 2:14 DOES refer to all who are operating as natural man, both saved and unsaved.
1. Receive the Spirit through belief in Christ
2. Understand the spiritual things of both 1Cor2:12, and 1Cor2:14
"The natural man does not accept the spritual THINGS of God, they are foolishness and he cannot understand them. We have received ...the Spirit of God that we may know the THINGS freely given by God."
This is the point of this thread --- "receive-the-Spirit", precedes "reveal-spiritual-things".
This verse is removed from Calvinistic discussions; there is no argument, no defense.
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The unsaved because that is all they can do, and the saved because they can only operate in the spiritual realm as they are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. The Corinthians were not much past the first things (the Gospel) and Paul was explaining to them that they needed to move on and grow into the deeper things of God.
That is the foundation of Calvinism; but you'll hafto go elsewhere than 1Cor2:14 to try to prove it.The unsaved because that is all they can do, and the saved because they can only operate in the spiritual realm as they are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. The Corinthians were not much past the first things (the Gospel) and Paul was explaining to them that they needed to move on and grow into the deeper things of God.
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The unsaved cannot even grasp the Gospel, because even that must be spiritually discerned, which is why the Spirit of God must first quicken the man's spirit to be able to discern spiritual things, which confirms clearly the Calvinist position of regeneration preceding faith.
Calvinists perceive that "THINGS", include saving-belief; but "RECEIVED", precedes "reveal-spiritual-things".The unsaved cannot even grasp the Gospel, because even that must be spiritually discerned, which is why the Spirit of God must first quicken the man's spirit to be able to discern spiritual things, which confirms clearly the Calvinist position of regeneration preceding faith.
"Received" is "belief". There is no argument.
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The reason anti-Calvinists don't accept this is because it undercuts their belief that they have a say in their own salvation, and that they play a crucial part in that salvation, in reality the deciding role, which robs God of His Sovereignty, and exalts man in his so-called "free will".
Nonsense. One group here writes in theology that does not exist in this verse (saying that natural men cannot understand saving-faith), the other group simply recognizes that this verse places RECEIVE-BELIEVE, before reveal-those-spiritual-things.The reason anti-Calvinists don't accept this is because it undercuts their belief that they have a say in their own salvation, and that they play a crucial part in that salvation, in reality the deciding role, which robs God of His Sovereignty, and exalts man in his so-called "free will".
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Salvation is of the Lord. If the anti-Calvinists really understood that statement, they would no longer be anti-Calvinists. They would be Calvinists.
First, we are not "Anti-Calvinists"; we are "pro-Scripture". If Scripture happens to oppose Calvinism, that is not our fault.Salvation is of the Lord. If the anti-Calvinists really understood that statement, they would no longer be anti-Calvinists. They would be Calvinists.
Second, you are 100% right --- salvation is of the Lord. Look at John1:13 --- it is all of God and NOTHING of men.
...yet, salvation, being God's gift of grace, must be RECEIVED; and that receiving is faith, and that is from us.
"Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9
Salvation (the begottenness of God) is all of God, and nothing of men (John1:13); but "to as many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God (to become begotten!), even to those WHO BELIEVE on His name." John1:12
Begottenness is of God.
BECOMING begotten is by our faith.
His gift, our receiving.
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Quoted by RTE:
The things of the Spirit are the things which non-believers find foolish. Number one candidate is the basic gospel.
And "God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the Gospel preached, to save those WHO BELIEVE." 1Cor1:21The things of the Spirit are the things which non-believers find foolish. Number one candidate is the basic gospel.
God saves those who believe, in SPITE of what first appeared foolish to them. You need to find a verse that says "God CHANGES the message from 'foolish' to 'power', so that men CAN believe".
You will never find it in Scripture.
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The things of the Spirit are not additional to the gospel, but part of it. The gospel encloses all things of the Spirit. The gospel is simply expanded for the mature so that is becomes more comprehensive: it is not added to with peripherals.
Sorry, this verse does not include "saving-faith".The things of the Spirit are not additional to the gospel, but part of it. The gospel encloses all things of the Spirit. The gospel is simply expanded for the mature so that is becomes more comprehensive: it is not added to with peripherals.
"RECEIVE-THE-SPIRIT", is belief, and that precedes "reveal-the-things-of-the-Spirit". This verse is gone from Calvinistic discussions.
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Thus "we preach Christ crucified" includes all teaching in the bible, from every aspect. There is no teaching of the Spirit that is not subsumed by "Christ crucified'. For the Spirit only glorifies Christ's work at Calvary, and nothing else at all. For nothing else is necessary.
We are not saved "by grace".Thus "we preach Christ crucified" includes all teaching in the bible, from every aspect. There is no teaching of the Spirit that is not subsumed by "Christ crucified'. For the Spirit only glorifies Christ's work at Calvary, and nothing else at all. For nothing else is necessary.
We are saved "by grace THROUGH FAITH". Robertson on Eph2:8 says "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."
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All teachings of the Spirit are an illocutionary act emanating from the power of the blood of Christ.
And we have the choice to believe the teachings, or not. See John5:39-47, it's clear.All teachings of the Spirit are an illocutionary act emanating from the power of the blood of Christ.
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I know that you think this is a solid exegesis, but Paul states it outright that if the rulers had understood these things they would not have crucified Jesus.
Look again at John5:39-47 --- WHY did they "not understand"? God's choice? NO! "If you BELIEVED MOSES, then you would believe Me; HOW can you believe My words, WHEN you WILL NOT believe Moses?"I know that you think this is a solid exegesis, but Paul states it outright that if the rulers had understood these things they would not have crucified Jesus.
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These are not things unavailable to unspiritual people. So these are not things that remain unrevealed to them. They just remain misunderstood and thus rejected.
No, they remain misunderstood and rejected because they WILLFULLY disbelieve both Jesus AND Moses. Why? Because they seek MEN'S glory, rather than GOD'S. Please read John5:39-47, and tell me your understanding.These are not things unavailable to unspiritual people. So these are not things that remain unrevealed to them. They just remain misunderstood and thus rejected.
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Yes, the spiritual person can make sense of these points. And the unspiritual person rejects them as silly.
In the second case, men can believe through foolishness of the message and BE saved. 1Cor1:21. In the first place, this verse plainly places "RECEIVED Spirit", before "reveal spiritual things". There is no argument or defense; this verse cannot be used in Calvinistic discussions.Yes, the spiritual person can make sense of these points. And the unspiritual person rejects them as silly.
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Which is why it's leveraged against your view that people believe before they are born again (which you also mistake for receiving the Spirit).
Show me from Scripture how a person can RECEIVE the Spirit, apart from belief in Jesus.Which is why it's leveraged against your view that people believe before they are born again (which you also mistake for receiving the Spirit).
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Here, a question. In what state does a person have to be to be adopted by God? What does he have to have? Belief?
According to John1:12, those WHO believe and WHO RECEIVE Jesus, THEN receive the right to become adopted. There is no denial, Mike. Here, a question. In what state does a person have to be to be adopted by God? What does he have to have? Belief?
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Being born of God? Receiving the Spirit of God? What's the prerequisite, Ben? I'd prefer to get your ordo straight before there's a focused discussion. Because you consider that Reformed people have a specific ordo here and are responding that it's inaccurate -- what's your proposal? Organize these terms in order of initial occurrence:
belief
new birth
receive the Spirit
adoption
John1:12 places "believe/receive", before "adoption". And "adoption", is "new-birth".Being born of God? Receiving the Spirit of God? What's the prerequisite, Ben? I'd prefer to get your ordo straight before there's a focused discussion. Because you consider that Reformed people have a specific ordo here and are responding that it's inaccurate -- what's your proposal? Organize these terms in order of initial occurrence:
belief
new birth
receive the Spirit
adoption
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No, I'm looking somewhere else. Look at what's stated specifically in the context of the very verse you brought up to discuss. Let's not bound around to another verse until we've demonstrated what's happening in the verse you're discussing. No one is understanding it, yet it's very much available to them.
We're understanding it fine; the "things", are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit. There is no defense against that --- in no sense can this verse be made to say "things must be revealed BEFORE a man believes savingly in Jesus and receives the Spirit."No, I'm looking somewhere else. Look at what's stated specifically in the context of the very verse you brought up to discuss. Let's not bound around to another verse until we've demonstrated what's happening in the verse you're discussing. No one is understanding it, yet it's very much available to them.
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This verse doesn't say that, and you know it, we've talked about this specific verse before.
It places "receive", before "reveal-spiritual-things".This verse doesn't say that, and you know it, we've talked about this specific verse before.
"Receive-the-Spirit", is "believe savingly". No way to deny that, Mike.
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And this is more bounding around to another verse. "HOW" indeed -- if they didn't believe before, then they don't believe Him now. This verse says nothing for how they believed.
With respect, this bit about "BOUNDING", seems like an excuse not to answer the Scriptures I've presented. This verse DOES say WHY they WILL not believe --- because they seek men's glory rather than God's. Jesus plainly says: "IF you DO not believe Moses (who wrote of Me), HOW will you believe My words?"And this is more bounding around to another verse. "HOW" indeed -- if they didn't believe before, then they don't believe Him now. This verse says nothing for how they believed.
Jesus forgot to include "God-decides"? No, He didn't.
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And in fact you aren't answering that question
Answered every question; but when I give a supporting verse, you say "bound".And in fact you aren't answering that question
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I'd have cited the exact same statement to point out, they're not born of God. So they wouldn't love Jesus.
"If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I came from the Father. "
You're denying the connection:I'd have cited the exact same statement to point out, they're not born of God. So they wouldn't love Jesus.
"If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I came from the Father. "
If God were your Father
If you believed Moses' words
Their choice, not God's.
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I don't see these two as the same -- I see one as consequent from the other. And I see zero reason to consider them to be the same event.
And so that's not what's happening. Belief is not some radical act of the will en vacuo.
This thread is about 1Cor2:14, how it's been refuted (in the presumed Calvinist understanding) time and time again, but still keeps getting asserted as if NOT refuted.I don't see these two as the same -- I see one as consequent from the other. And I see zero reason to consider them to be the same event.
And so that's not what's happening. Belief is not some radical act of the will en vacuo.
The passage says that "received-Spirit", happens BEFORE "reveal-spiritual-things".
You either must accept that "spiritual-things" does NOT include "saving-faith-in-Christ", or propose some way that the Spirit is received apart from faith.
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You've now stated yet another theme of this thread. I'm not interested in changing the point. I'll stick with the original point. Otherwise the term "bait & switch" comes to mind. Regeneration precedes faith.
Where? Show me the verse (and I promise not to accuse you of "bounding"). You cannot show me the verse, because there isn't one. You've now stated yet another theme of this thread. I'm not interested in changing the point. I'll stick with the original point. Otherwise the term "bait & switch" comes to mind. Regeneration precedes faith.
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Faith is not "receiving things from the Spirit". Faith is not "receiving the Spirit".
Really? How can the Spirit be received, BEFORE faith? Faith is not "receiving things from the Spirit". Faith is not "receiving the Spirit".
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And regeneration is not "receiving the Spirit". "receive" means "receive". It does not mean "believe". I can even receive you, and not believe you. The Pharisee who held a party for Jesus is one. Greek, my friend. Greek is your friend.
Refer to Acts10:43-47, and 11:15-17; you'll find these principles, in Greek:And regeneration is not "receiving the Spirit". "receive" means "receive". It does not mean "believe". I can even receive you, and not believe you. The Pharisee who held a party for Jesus is one. Greek, my friend. Greek is your friend.
Fell-upon/poured/gifted/RECEIVED the Holy Spirit
AFTER BELIEF
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As "received" doesn't denote belief, it is in fact quite an airy interpretation. But as the point of regeneration is not explicitly stated, you'd have to check out what the words actually meant, and come up with an order, a sequence, to what follows from what.
The thread is on 1Cor2:14; the THINGS, cannot include saving-faith.As "received" doesn't denote belief, it is in fact quite an airy interpretation. But as the point of regeneration is not explicitly stated, you'd have to check out what the words actually meant, and come up with an order, a sequence, to what follows from what.
The Spirit is not received APART from saving-faith.
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And to do that you'd have to examine very critically your position that belief, regeneration, adoption, and receiving the Spirit are all the same thing. Because Paul doesn't accept them as being the same thing. Some are dependent on others.
So as I asked at first -- what's your order of salvation?
The order is explicitly stated in John1:12 those WHO believe, WHO receive Jesus, gain the right to BECOME adopted children.And to do that you'd have to examine very critically your position that belief, regeneration, adoption, and receiving the Spirit are all the same thing. Because Paul doesn't accept them as being the same thing. Some are dependent on others.
So as I asked at first -- what's your order of salvation?
Show me anywhere that "regeneration", precedes "belief". But in this thread you have failed to deny that 1Cor2:14 does NOT assert "saving-faith is not available to the natural man".
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I know that you think this is a solid exegesis, but Paul states it outright that if the rulers had understood these things they would not have crucified Jesus.
Look again at John5:39-47 --- WHY did they "not understand"? God's choice? NO! "If you BELIEVED MOSES, then you would believe Me; HOW can you believe My words, WHEN you WILL NOT believe Moses?"I know that you think this is a solid exegesis, but Paul states it outright that if the rulers had understood these things they would not have crucified Jesus.
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These are not things unavailable to unspiritual people. So these are not things that remain unrevealed to them. They just remain misunderstood and thus rejected.
No, they remain misunderstood and rejected because they WILLFULLY disbelieve both Jesus AND Moses. Why? Because they seek MEN'S glory, rather than GOD'S. Please read John5:39-47, and tell me your understanding.These are not things unavailable to unspiritual people. So these are not things that remain unrevealed to them. They just remain misunderstood and thus rejected.
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Yes, the spiritual person can make sense of these points. And the unspiritual person rejects them as silly.
In the second case, men can believe through foolishness of the message and BE saved. 1Cor1:21. In the first place, this verse plainly places "RECEIVED Spirit", before "reveal spiritual things". There is no argument or defense; this verse cannot be used in Calvinistic discussions.Yes, the spiritual person can make sense of these points. And the unspiritual person rejects them as silly.
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Which is why it's leveraged against your view that people believe before they are born again (which you also mistake for receiving the Spirit).
Show me from Scripture how a person can RECEIVE the Spirit, apart from belief in Jesus.Which is why it's leveraged against your view that people believe before they are born again (which you also mistake for receiving the Spirit).
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Here, a question. In what state does a person have to be to be adopted by God? What does he have to have? Belief?
According to John1:12, those WHO believe and WHO RECEIVE Jesus, THEN receive the right to become adopted. There is no denial, Mike. Here, a question. In what state does a person have to be to be adopted by God? What does he have to have? Belief?
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Being born of God? Receiving the Spirit of God? What's the prerequisite, Ben? I'd prefer to get your ordo straight before there's a focused discussion. Because you consider that Reformed people have a specific ordo here and are responding that it's inaccurate -- what's your proposal? Organize these terms in order of initial occurrence:
belief
new birth
receive the Spirit
adoption
John1:12 places "believe/receive", before "adoption". And "adoption", is "new-birth".Being born of God? Receiving the Spirit of God? What's the prerequisite, Ben? I'd prefer to get your ordo straight before there's a focused discussion. Because you consider that Reformed people have a specific ordo here and are responding that it's inaccurate -- what's your proposal? Organize these terms in order of initial occurrence:
belief
new birth
receive the Spirit
adoption
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No, I'm looking somewhere else. Look at what's stated specifically in the context of the very verse you brought up to discuss. Let's not bound around to another verse until we've demonstrated what's happening in the verse you're discussing. No one is understanding it, yet it's very much available to them.
We're understanding it fine; the "things", are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit. There is no defense against that --- in no sense can this verse be made to say "things must be revealed BEFORE a man believes savingly in Jesus and receives the Spirit."No, I'm looking somewhere else. Look at what's stated specifically in the context of the very verse you brought up to discuss. Let's not bound around to another verse until we've demonstrated what's happening in the verse you're discussing. No one is understanding it, yet it's very much available to them.
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This verse doesn't say that, and you know it, we've talked about this specific verse before.
It places "receive", before "reveal-spiritual-things".This verse doesn't say that, and you know it, we've talked about this specific verse before.
"Receive-the-Spirit", is "believe savingly". No way to deny that, Mike.
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And this is more bounding around to another verse. "HOW" indeed -- if they didn't believe before, then they don't believe Him now. This verse says nothing for how they believed.
With respect, this bit about "BOUNDING", seems like an excuse not to answer the Scriptures I've presented. This verse DOES say WHY they WILL not believe --- because they seek men's glory rather than God's. Jesus plainly says: "IF you DO not believe Moses (who wrote of Me), HOW will you believe My words?"And this is more bounding around to another verse. "HOW" indeed -- if they didn't believe before, then they don't believe Him now. This verse says nothing for how they believed.
Jesus forgot to include "God-decides"? No, He didn't.
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And in fact you aren't answering that question
Answered every question; but when I give a supporting verse, you say "bound".And in fact you aren't answering that question
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I'd have cited the exact same statement to point out, they're not born of God. So they wouldn't love Jesus.
"If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I came from the Father. "
You're denying the connection:I'd have cited the exact same statement to point out, they're not born of God. So they wouldn't love Jesus.
"If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I came from the Father. "
If God were your Father
If you believed Moses' words
Their choice, not God's.
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I don't see these two as the same -- I see one as consequent from the other. And I see zero reason to consider them to be the same event.
And so that's not what's happening. Belief is not some radical act of the will en vacuo.
This thread is about 1Cor2:14, how it's been refuted (in the presumed Calvinist understanding) time and time again, but still keeps getting asserted as if NOT refuted.I don't see these two as the same -- I see one as consequent from the other. And I see zero reason to consider them to be the same event.
And so that's not what's happening. Belief is not some radical act of the will en vacuo.
The passage says that "received-Spirit", happens BEFORE "reveal-spiritual-things".
You either must accept that "spiritual-things" does NOT include "saving-faith-in-Christ", or propose some way that the Spirit is received apart from faith.
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You've now stated yet another theme of this thread. I'm not interested in changing the point. I'll stick with the original point. Otherwise the term "bait & switch" comes to mind. Regeneration precedes faith.
Where? Show me the verse (and I promise not to accuse you of "bounding"). You cannot show me the verse, because there isn't one. You've now stated yet another theme of this thread. I'm not interested in changing the point. I'll stick with the original point. Otherwise the term "bait & switch" comes to mind. Regeneration precedes faith.
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Faith is not "receiving things from the Spirit". Faith is not "receiving the Spirit".
Really? How can the Spirit be received, BEFORE faith? Faith is not "receiving things from the Spirit". Faith is not "receiving the Spirit".
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And regeneration is not "receiving the Spirit". "receive" means "receive". It does not mean "believe". I can even receive you, and not believe you. The Pharisee who held a party for Jesus is one. Greek, my friend. Greek is your friend.
Refer to Acts10:43-47, and 11:15-17; you'll find these principles, in Greek:And regeneration is not "receiving the Spirit". "receive" means "receive". It does not mean "believe". I can even receive you, and not believe you. The Pharisee who held a party for Jesus is one. Greek, my friend. Greek is your friend.
Fell-upon/poured/gifted/RECEIVED the Holy Spirit
AFTER BELIEF
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As "received" doesn't denote belief, it is in fact quite an airy interpretation. But as the point of regeneration is not explicitly stated, you'd have to check out what the words actually meant, and come up with an order, a sequence, to what follows from what.
The thread is on 1Cor2:14; the THINGS, cannot include saving-faith.As "received" doesn't denote belief, it is in fact quite an airy interpretation. But as the point of regeneration is not explicitly stated, you'd have to check out what the words actually meant, and come up with an order, a sequence, to what follows from what.
The Spirit is not received APART from saving-faith.
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And to do that you'd have to examine very critically your position that belief, regeneration, adoption, and receiving the Spirit are all the same thing. Because Paul doesn't accept them as being the same thing. Some are dependent on others.
So as I asked at first -- what's your order of salvation?
The order is explicitly stated in John1:12 those WHO believe, WHO receive Jesus, gain the right to BECOME adopted children.And to do that you'd have to examine very critically your position that belief, regeneration, adoption, and receiving the Spirit are all the same thing. Because Paul doesn't accept them as being the same thing. Some are dependent on others.
So as I asked at first -- what's your order of salvation?
Show me anywhere that "regeneration", precedes "belief". But in this thread you have failed to deny that 1Cor2:14 does NOT assert "saving-faith is not available to the natural man".
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Quoted by NBF:
Both the preaching of the Cross, which is the Gospel, and the things of God, which are spiritual, are deemed to be foolish to the natural man, the ones who are perishing.
And you have conspicuously ignored 1Cor1:21 --- God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness to save those WHO believe.Both the preaching of the Cross, which is the Gospel, and the things of God, which are spiritual, are deemed to be foolish to the natural man, the ones who are perishing.
Men can believe THROUGH what was previously "foolish" --- it is belief that changes the message from "foolish", to "power". Calvinism can only say, "Oops".
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Paul makes it clear that those who are perishing are walking after the flesh, and cannot be subject to the Law of God. Such are those who perceive the Preaching of the Cross (the Gospel) as foolishness.
You would be hard pressed to make a case that the Gospel is not one of the "Things of God", because Paul indicates that it is, by his assessment that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, because they are foolish to him, and those who are perishing perceive the Gospel as foolishness.
There is no case --- the THINGS in both verses (12 & 14), are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit.Paul makes it clear that those who are perishing are walking after the flesh, and cannot be subject to the Law of God. Such are those who perceive the Preaching of the Cross (the Gospel) as foolishness.
You would be hard pressed to make a case that the Gospel is not one of the "Things of God", because Paul indicates that it is, by his assessment that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit, because they are foolish to him, and those who are perishing perceive the Gospel as foolishness.
The Spirit is received by belief. No "hard pressed", no "case", no denying.
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Paul himself makes the connection.
Two things which are both described the same way are logically synonymous. They are the same thing.
Go back and read the context of the very verses you just cited --- and add to it Col3:1ff, "set your minds above, and not below".Paul himself makes the connection.
Two things which are both described the same way are logically synonymous. They are the same thing.
WE (the saved) can walk after the flesh, if WE do WE must die. Or we can by the Spirit put to death the flesh, and live.
Your position is that "we (the saved) can NEVER die" --- that is, walking after the flesh to perishing, is not possible for the truly elect.
Paul says it is.
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