Age of miracles is over scripture refs?

[SilentRunner]

Check out this video... www dot sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=6657 ...This is an amazing woman of God! When she was 28 (I believe 28), a door fell on her and crippled her. She was in wheelchair when God healed her and set her free. She is a minister of the gospel today. Just check out the video.

Also, the Word of God is enough to settle the issues of miracles. Look at John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

If the day of doing the works that Jesus did is over, then the day of believing on Him is over.

Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."


Can we believe the Word of God?

"He that believeth on me" does not say "The disciple who believeth on me" and it does not say "Those who I have laid hands upon and who believeth on me". It says "he that believeth on me". That means anyone at anytime who beieves in Christ Jesus. How else can you read those words?

"...these signs shall follow them that believe..." Again, anyone at anytime who believe.

Neither of those phrases restricts what follows in the scripture to a specific time nor to a specific subgroup of people other than the subgroup of believers.

One has to draw the conclusion that the age of miracles is NOT over. But you must have the faith required to perform the miracle...and very few people have that faith.

By the way, several posts here mention that the healed women became ministers. Then I must suspect that they are not doing the will of God because of:

1Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

[- DRA -]

Mark 16 ...
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

"He that believeth on me" does not say "The disciple who believeth on me" and it does not say "Those who I have laid hands upon and who believeth on me". It says "he that believeth on me". That means anyone at anytime who beieves in Christ Jesus. How else can you read those words?

"...these signs shall follow them that believe..." Again, anyone at anytime who believe.

Neither of those phrases restricts what follows in the scripture to a specific time nor to a specific subgroup of people other than the subgroup of believers.

One has to draw the conclusion that the age of miracles is NOT over. But you must have the faith required to perform the miracle...and very few people have that faith.

By the way, several posts here mention that the healed women became ministers. Then I must suspect that they are not doing the will of God because of:

The context, beginning with verse 14, is Jesus' giving final instructions to the eleven - the eleven apostles (originally 12, but at this time Judas Iscariot had already taken his life, which left 11). In essence, they are commanded to preach the gospel to the world, what to teach, and the signs that will accompany them (see Hebrews 2:3-4). Note the sequence of events ...
1.) Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11)
2.) The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:1-4 (see Acts 1:5)
3.) In Acts 8, we learn how other disciples received the Holy Spirit. Note verse 12. The Samaritans "believed" the gospel. However, they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until the apostles Peter and John came down from (in elevation from Jerusalem to Samaria) and laid hands on them (see verses 14-17). Also, a similar incident occurred in Acts 19:1-6 when the apostle Paul came to Ephesus.
4.) In Acts 10, Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Peter's conclusion, which should be the same as ours, is given in Acts 10:47-48.
In summary, only two incidents of the baptism with the Holy Spirit are recorded in the inspired record. Otherwise, the only scriptural means I can find for someone receiving the Holy Spirit with associated miracles is by the laying on of the apostles' hands. Therefore, this ability ended when the last apostle died. And, after the death of the last person who the apostle(s) had laid hands upon, then the ability to perform miracles (or spiritual gifts) ceased. No matter how strong one's faith is today, you can't perform miracles in the name of the Lord if it isn't the Lord's will they be done. Some make this claim, but their only power is in their own words. If it's simply a matter of faith, as you suggest, then by all means boost (i.e., edify) your faith and let's see what happens. I'm not a prophet by any means, but I predict absolutely nothing will happen that could even be remotely compared to a N.T. miracle.

 

[SilentRunner]

DRA,
What we argue here will not get us into heaven nor prevent of from getting into heaven. Not like the arguments many denominationaists make in discarding baptism which does affect their future with God.

But I do believe it illustrates how easy it is to ignore the simple and easy as given to us in the New Testament and turn it into the difficult and complicated. That, in many cases, takes us further from God.

 

[- DRA -]

DRA,
What we argue here will not get us into heaven nor prevent of from getting into heaven. Not like the arguments many denominationaists make in discarding baptism which does affect their future with God.

But I do believe it illustrates how easy it is to ignore the simple and easy as given to us in the New Testament and turn it into the difficult and complicated. That, in many cases, takes us further from God.

The denominationalists could easily make the very same argument with John 3:16. It's simple and easy for them. However, their understanding fails to consider the context, and fails to harmonize with other relevant passages.

My goal is never to make things more complicated than they have to be. However, I don't really believe it complicates matters to test an understanding derived from a passage to ensure it harmonizes with other passages. It's what Jesus did in both Matthew 4:5-7 and Matthew 22:23-33. Without harmonizing our understanding with other passages, the door is wide open to draw the wrong conclusion.

On the other hand, I really don't see how your understanding helps bring us closer to God. You maintain the ability for Christians to work miracles in the name of the Lord still exists today, but only a few have enough faith to do them. And, I'm given the impression that you're not even numbered among the "faithful." Sounds like your position is that we are a faithless people. And, unless I'm mistaken, without faith our ability to please God stands in jeopardy (Hebrews 11:6).

 

[SilentRunner]

. You maintain the ability for Christians to work miracles in the name of the Lord still exists today, but only a few have enough faith to do them. And, I'm given the impression that you're not even numbered among the "faithful." Sounds like your position is that we are a faithless people. And, unless I'm mistaken, without faith our ability to please God stands in jeopardy (Hebrews 11:6).

Yes, number me among the faithful. And, no, we Christians are not faithless people. You apparently fail to realize that faith comes in different "sizes". Many people have none, some have some, and a few have much. I've been told by Christ Jesus himself that if I have "faith as a grain of mustard seed," I can move a mountain. He uses the size of a mustard seed (very, very small) as a measure of the amount of faith I must have to move that mountain.

 

[- DRA -]

Yes, number me among the faithful. And, no, we Christians are not faithless people. You apparently fail to realize that faith comes in different "sizes". Many people have none, some have some, and a few have much. I've been told by Christ Jesus himself that if I have "faith as a grain of mustard seed," I can move a mountain. He uses the size of a mustard seed (very, very small) as a measure of the amount of faith I must have to move that mountain.

So, are you saying you can do miracles in the name of the Lord?

 

[SilentRunner]

So, are you saying you can do miracles in the name of the Lord?

Nope. My faith doesn't even approach that of a mustard seed. And you?

 

[- DRA -]

Nope. My faith doesn't even approach that of a mustard seed. And you?

No, I cannot perform miracles in the name of the Lord as the apostles and those they laid hands on performed them in the first century. Miracles served their purpose. They confirmed Jesus and His teachings (John 3:2) as well as the apostles and their completion of the gospel of Christ (Hebrews 2:3-4). Now, we have God's completed Revelation to mankind (2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:3, Jude 3). My faith allows me to accept this, and prompts my desire to be a better student of His word.

In all honesty, my faith has never prompted any literal mountains to move, but by God's grace spiritual mountains have definitely moved. Like anyone, God's grace sustains and motivates me. I have my ups and downs. Being an elder is very draining at times ... both physically and spiritually. But, after numerous trials and tribulations (e.g., my wife is a cancer survivor of 31 years, and the recent passing away of a granddaughter while still developing in the womb), God has taught me patience and helped me through some very difficult times. When things look bleak and I feel alone, it isn't long before God finds a way to help pick me up. I know I disappoint Him terribly at times, but I have confidence that He forgives my sins and remembers them no more. I find this thought very comforting. Therefore, I labor in His kingdom with the strength and abilities He has given me.

To Him be all the praise and glory (1 Corinthians 1:31).

 

[SilentRunner]

DRA,
We both have had tough times to survive. I came close to death five years ago when my intestine sprung a leak. Seven weeks in the hospital (five weeks unconcious in intensive care) and a colostomy saved my life. The colostomy was reversed in operation number two nine months later. Operation three a year later was to correct a hernia caused by the first two operations. And a month later operation four undid operation three after I had contracted MRSA.

I still have the hernia (maybe two) and recently had a stent placed into one of my heart's arteries. And I too have come out of all of that with a greater love for the Lord. Go figure.

I suspect that you are one of the Lord's favorites because you are doing his will. But that doesn't mean you can't be wrong once in a while I certainly am.

 

[- DRA -]

DRA,
We both have had tough times to survive. I came close to death five years ago when my intestine sprung a leak. Seven weeks in the hospital (five weeks unconcious in intensive care) and a colostomy saved my life. The colostomy was reversed in operation number two nine months later. Operation three a year later was to correct a hernia caused by the first two operations. And a month later operation four undid operation three after I had contracted MRSA.

I still have the hernia (maybe two) and recently had a stent placed into one of my heart's arteries. And I too have come out of all of that with a greater love for the Lord. Go figure.

I suspect that you are one of the Lord's favorites because you are doing his will. But that doesn't mean you can't be wrong once in a while I certainly am.

Good. We've found some common ground. I am familiar to some extent with sepsis and its adverse health effects upon the body. God extended your life for a reason. I pray you use your time wisely.

I don't know about being one of the Lord's favorites. I suspect that's quite a stretch.

As for what is truth, I suggest consideration of passages such as John 8:32, Romans 3:4, and 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. In a nutshell, the truth is something we can know, it is based on God's word (versus yours or mine), and a lack of love for God's truth opens the door wide for "strong delusion."

The issue isn't whether or not I can be wrong once in a while. I'll grant you that point. I'm certainly not infallible. The issue is whether or not spiritual gifts (i.e., miracles) can be performed today. Personally, I think the reasoning they can be performed today, but we simply don't have enough faith to do them, is an extremely weak position. It's would be comparable to the apostles and first-century Christians confirming and proclaiming the gospel of Christ - teaching the works and message of our Lord - and proclaiming the power He gave to them - all the while lacking the faith to do any miracles. I see something terribly wrong with that picture. It sure wouldn't do the Lord and gospel message any justice. Personally, I think the reasoning needs to be reexamined with all diligence (2 Tim. 2:15, Acts 17:11). On the other hand, assuming your reasoning is correct, then you need to put your faith and trust completely in the Lord so His marvelous works can be seen. No excuses.

As I commonly teach, anyone can go to a particular passage/text of Scripture and declare an understanding. However, the test comes in determining if that is really what is being taught in the context, and then the matter of harmonizing Scripture comes into play (e.g., Matthew 4:5-7, Matthew 22:23-33). Without basic Bible interpretation skills, no matter the topic, the truth will not be obtained. John 3:16 is an example. We know the common denominational understanding of the passage. Faith or belief only. No works required. However, note the context in verses 14-15. Belief in the Lord is likened to the brass (or bronze) serpent of Numbers 21:8-9. In short, people had to come to the serpent mounted on the pole and look at it to live. In essence, they had to do something, which is totally contrary to the frequently accepted definition of "believe." Likening the elevated serpent to Jesus on the cross, we likewise have to come to Him and look upon Him to live (i.e., for salvation). That process is further illustrated in the conversions in the book of Acts. Therefore, we can ensure we have the truth about what it means to "believe" in the Lord by harmonizing our understanding of John 3:16 (as presented in its context) with the conversions. Make sense?
Bottom line. Don't take my word for it. I humbly suggest sitting at the Master's feet for awhile with Matthew 4:5-7 and Matthew 22:23-33. To me, it sets the foundation for seeing things God's way.

 

[wmssid]

1) God presented Abram with "Revealed Religion." [This used to be a common phrase in churches.] He had worshipped "other gods."

2) Jesus began the, "Called-out" (church is heresy) from Israel, and from pagan religions.

3) Paul condemned Mountain (Kingdom) of Israel; Gal 3.10-12.

4) Martin Luther began a new religion without the Pope. This was recorded, "half the Mountain (Papacy) moved north, and half south"; (Zec 14.4); meaning Protestants in northern Europe, beginning 1520, and Papists had firm rule in south.

5) Alexander Campbell led Protestants from northern Mountain (Kingdom) into congregational rule.

6) God is punishing the churches of the Beast and False Prophet in US courts, since AD 2004, and they are on trial today in Belleville, Illinois for "child molestation." Boston, St. Louis, and Seattle closed one-third of churches in AD 2004. Hospitals and schools were closed for lack of funds, due to court ruligs against "child molestation." This is the fulfillment of Rev 20.10. I predicted 2004 in 1997, in my commentary on Revelation.

7) "Revival 2015" will expse Papal iniquity.

8) "Forgiveness of sin" is a miracle of God today; if you will have it.

9) All of your misunderstandings about the Old Testaennt were cleared up in 1992, "The Great Debate: 3 =2; in Ardmore, OKlahoma, Don Preston versus Bill Lockwood.
A) Both believed in Jesus' resurrection; AD 32.
B) Don Preston proved, indisputably, "the First Century Resurrection" (AD 77 is my date).
C) Bill Lockwood declared "final resurrection at end of Christian dispensation."

The Pope teaches that the "First Century Resurrection" will be at the end of time.

But God proved, through these two men, the 3 General Resurrections; Anointed (A), coming of Anointed (B), then the end (C); 1Cor 15.22-24.

The apostles were Old Covenant only - 1Cor 9.20-21.

wmssid

 

[Apollos1]

I studied spiritual gifts (SGs) a few years ago. I offer the following information not to "overload", but to help. It is divided into -2- parts.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Most SG proponents argue their position from SILENCE. There is not ONE passage that “specifically advocates” that SGs are to continue today!

It is not necessary to base our understanding of spiritual gifts on the “silence” of the scriptures. I believe that the scriptures are complete (2 Pt. 1:3, 1 Cor. 2:10-13, Eph. 3:3-5) and that we must have scripture for any teaching or practice to be “by faith” – Romans 10:17, cf. Col. 3:17, 2 Peter 4:11. Christians walk by faith - not “sight”! Silence is not authoritative and it cannot produce faith!

1 Corinthians 12 lists the –9- spiritual gifts. They are:

-Word of Knowledge (logos sophia)
-Word of Wisdom (llogos gnosis)
-Faith (pistis)
-Gift of healing (iama)
-Working of Miracles (energema dunamis)
-Prophecy (propheteia)
-Discerning of Spirits (diakrisis pneuma)
-Tongues (glossa)
-Interpretation of Tongues (hermeneia glossa)

1 Corinthians 13 tells us about the DURATION of spiritual gifts - how long the gifts were/are to last. 1 Corinthians 14 describes the USE of spiritual gifts.

God granted these gifts to men through the HS. I do not question that God did grant such gifts, nor do I question that He can do such. The question is does God give these gifts to men today?

The PURPOSE of spiritual gifts was to reveal the word and confirm it! Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:3-4, Acts 14:3, cf. Acts 2:22, 4:33, 15:8. The word has been revealed and the word has been confirmed. “The faith” has been delivered once for all time – Jude 3 !

IF the word of God is indeed to be believed and if it is also our source of faith, and if all that His word contains is to be taken as true, then the purpose for which these gifts were given has been accomplished. Therefore spiritual gifts are no longer needed.

Much like a notarized legal document, the written word reveals and confirms itself for us today - being revealed by reading or hearing and confirmed to us today by the events of miracles/signs/& wonders recorded therein – John 20:30-31. The thought of “continuous confirmation” destroys the very purpose of initial confirmation. Such is superfluous !

1 Corinthians 13: –

Take note that Paul begins in 13:1-3 showing the “best way” as mentioned in 12:31 - the way better than the “best gifts”. Paul says that if one speaks in tongues (glossa), prophecy (propheteia), has all faith & knowledge (pistis & gnosis), and gives all that he has including his life, and has not love – it profits nothing. SGs without love are useful/advantageous for nothing. Love is more important than SGs!

In verses 4-7 Paul uses -15- qualities of love in contrast to the problems SGs were creating for the Corinthians. Love is kind, envies not, is not proud, behaves properly, rejoices in truth, endures all things… In contrast to the qualities that SGs exposed in the Corinthians, the qualities of love are better!

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away: whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. ASV

Verse 8In this verse Paul juxtaposes the endurance of love with the temporality of spiritual gifts.)

Prophecies (propheteia) – they shall be done away. (katargeo)
Tongues (glossa) – they shall cease. (pauo)
Knowledge (gnosis) – it shall be done away. (katargeo)

Paul uses these –3- gifts listed in verse 8 as representative of all spiritual gifts, much like a synecdoche. Paul does the same in verse 9 using only –2- gifts as representative of the whole.

Spiritual gifts - the means of revealing and confirming the will of God to man - were to be done away. But when?

Verse 9:
Knowledge – in part.
Prophesy – in part.

Prophecy (speaking forth the mind & counsel of God) and knowledge (to be taking in knowledge or coming to know) wereonly partial at that time and were only given a part at a time. Spiritual gifts made prophecy and knowledge possible and certain. Partial prophecy and knowledge were to cease also according to verse 10. But when?

Most agree with this exegesis up to this point. The disagreement usually begins with the explanation when in verse 10:

- “but when that which is perfect is come…”
(Literally –“when the perfect thing comes…”) This is the “when”.

Two thoughts are prominent as to what occasion Paul is speaking of:

-The return of Christ -OR-
-The completion of the revelation of the word of God.

(The person of Christ can in no fashion be forced contextually into 1Cor. 13:10. Some settle for “eschatological innuendo”, both in using the phrase “the end of time” in reference to this passage and by attempting to infer that some words in the passage carry some eschatological “overtones”. They don’t! It is from this viewpoint – the end of time - that I shall approach verse 10.)

The completion of God’s revelation is the proper explanation for verse 10. There is NOTHING in this context to suggest that Paul is speaking in regards to the end of time (or Christ) and there is EVERYTHING to suggest that he is speaking about knowledge, prophecy, and the “perfection” of it !!

Paul first compares a “that which” is perfect with a “that which” that is in part, with an underlying contrast. This indicates that the two things Paul speaks of here are the same type of thing, although they not of the same quality. The first “that which” is still “in part” (to ek merous) and has the quality of being incomplete, while the second “that which” is “perfect” (to teleion), and has the quality of coming to be completed, lacking nothing. An example of this would be to compare a partially inflated tire with a properly inflated tire – the same type of thing are compared, but they are not of the same quality.

 

[Apollos1]

Part 2...

The word “perfect” is rendered from the Greek word “teleios”. This word signifies a person or thing that has reached its end, finished, complete, perfect; wanting nothing necessary to completeness. (Thayer & Vine both referenced.)

This defining of “teleios” as something coming to completeness is supported by the continuing context of the passage. In the next 3 verses Paul uses -2- analogies to exemplify exactly this. Please note that the context is set in verse 10. The analogies must clarify what has already been said in verse 10. (Analogies do not set the context, but are given to exemplify it.)

The first analogy uses an example of physical development coming to “completeness” and the second analogy uses an example of cognitive development coming to “completeness”. Let us look at Paul’s discourse in verses 11-13.

Paul’s first analogy – verse 11:

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

In this verse Paul describes the process of maturing – the transition of a child becoming an adult. Paul states in this analogy of verse 11 that once maturity is finished – that is, once the development process has come to completion - then at that time something is done away with. Here it is childish ways that are done away with. That which once served a purpose ceases - the process is finished/complete. (Notice -“that which” was “in part” was an immature person– “that which” is “perfected” is the mature person.)

The application made with the revelation of God’s word is this: once a man is full grown/mature (once the word is fully revealed and confirmed), the childish ways (ei. spiritual gifts) which served to bring man to maturity (the spiritual gifts used to reveal and confirm God’s word) are done away/cease. The purpose of the means of revelation (spiritual gifts) has been completed!

Paul’s second analogy - verse 12:

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

In this second analogy of verse 12 Paul uses looking in a mirror to present the same idea of coming to a conclusion or finality, but logically or intellectually in this example.

The word “darkly”, or “riddle” in some translations, is from the Greek word “ainigmati” literally meaning “in an enigma”. A riddle is something to be figured out or solved. It requires a logical process over time to come to the solution – a little part of knowledge is gained at a time. When the process of thought or logic is complete, finished, or “perfect”, a solution is then given for the riddle, or an answer is given for a puzzle. When the answer is given, the logical process used to obtain that finish ceases – it has served its purpose! (“That which” was “in part” could not solve the “riddle” – “that which” is “complete” will solve it.)

Paul says they were seeing “darkly”; everything was not yet seen clearly or revealed. But when that which is perfect is come, the “darkness” or “riddle” is solved, and we will see clearly or “face to face”. Please follow what Paul is saying here. In this analogy “face-to-face” is talking about how one sees in the mirror, not WHO one sees in the mirror.

They did not see all things clearly before the “riddle” was revealed – it was “dark”. But “then”, when “perfection” has come (or as in this analogy, a solution to the riddle) we will see all clearly (we will understand) like we were looking at ourselves in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling how well we will understand (“see”) once “perfection” has come.

In verse 12b Paul finishes this thought by stating that now he knows (literally, is taking in knowledge) only in part – but “then” he shall know fully or completely. How well shall we know? Paul says “even as also I was fully known”. This is in the mirror – face to face. Paul is telling us how well we are going to know “then”. (cf. James 1:25.)

13 But now abideth (MENO) faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Paul concludes this chapter with the same topic he began it with - by speaking of love (the “best way”). The close of the chapter presents another contrast & another hurdle for those who claim that SGs were not to cease after the completion of God’s revelation.

The word for “abideth” here is the Greek word meno, which means: to remain, abide, not to depart, to last, endure.

Paul says that only –3- things “Now abide” – faith, hope, and love. This is in direct contrast to those things that would cease – tongues, knowledge, & prophecy (SGs)! The point Paul makes to the gift-loving Corinthians is that faith, hope, & love will remain – these are permanent, while the SGs will cease – SGs will not remain.

Now, of these three things, only one will continue into eternity. When we are with Christ in eternity, faith and hope will have ended. Only love will last into eternity.
So, here is Paul's "timeline":

- Miraculous gifts will cease, but faith, hope and love will abide until eternity begins, and of these three, love is the greatest as it will continue even into eternity.

Now the thing that makes this problematic for SG proponents is the view that miraculous gifts will continue until “the end of time” (Christ returns and takes us away to be "like Him.") Such a view completely obliterates the comparison Paul is making and forces us to conclude that miraculous gifts will not cease, fail, vanish away, or be done away at all, but will “abide” as faith, hope, and love are to.

The “end of time” view is in direct contradiction of the point that Paul closes this chapter with.

“But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.” ASV

 

[wmssid]

Apollo1:

You are a prisoner of the "Dirty Guys"!

These are the Bible translators.

All of your quotes below are erroneous.

All English Bible transations have 16 names of God banned.

The correct names are in the Bible MSS and the Hebrew and Greek Interlinear Bibles, but -- in none of the translations (except mine).

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

"In part" should read "in praises" (Strong's #136; 12 times).

13 But now abideth (MENO) faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

These are two independent sentences. The first reads: "But now it (prophecy in part) will remain." "In part" and "perfect" are neuter nouns, while most all other words are masculine or feminine. This is to contrast the "temporary" with the "permanent" (7 Spirits of God).

The second sentence is: "Faith, hope Extreme Love (agape) these three; but greatest of these the Extreme Love."

"It will remain" (MENEI) is incompatible with "faith, hope, love."

But you did not reply to my message of a New Covenant.
You did not reply to the 7 Spirits of God identified in Rev 5.12, Rev 7.12, and several other lists.

This is irrersponsible to ignore the 7 Spirits of God.

wmssid

13. “But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”ASV[/quote]

 

[Apollos1]

To wmssid …

Although you think you have some “inside” information, you “do not have a clue”. Your thoughts and writing are out of synch, follow no logical pattern, and the end result is mental chaos and false theology. I don’t believe anyone actually knows what you are trying to say (see your post #31 above), but I will attempt to piece together those few splinters of thought that belong in the context of this thread – that being, are SG’s like those -9- read about in 1 Corinthians 12 present today. (If you feel the need to bring up subjects outside of this thread, please start another thread.)

WMSSID SAID - You are a prisoner of the "Dirty Guys"!

How sad for everyone else…. but you.

WMSSID SAID - These are the Bible translators.

Those devious and evil translators !!!

WMSSID SAID - All of your quotes below are erroneous.

I think you mean “above” – not below. And I don’t think so…
- - - - - - - - - -

WMSSID SAID - All English Bible transations have 16 names of God banned.

Who “banned” them and why… er, nevermind…
How many (if any) were allowed by your counting?
I have a list of 19 names for Jehovah God that includes 10 compound names. Is it your thinking that people are not aware of the names for Jehovah God?

WMSSID SAID - The correct names are in the Bible MSS and the Hebrew and Greek Interlinear Bibles, but -- in none of the translations (except mine).
How special for you – and what a burden you must be bearing being the only one with such “truth” to be found in your “version” only !!!
- - - - - - - - - -


So if we are finished extolling your virtues and the qualities of your translation, let us get back to the topic at hand…

From 1 Corinthians 13:

12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

WMSSID SAID - - "In part" should read "in praises" (Strong's #136; 12 times).

I am surprised you accept Strong’s definition as you must think it erroneous as well… but we can use Strong although I typically use Thayer.

“Praises” ??? You got this one all wrong. That is not the word here. Do you ever double check yourself and make corrections as you go along? You should!

“In part” is from (Greek =) “ek meros”. This is found in both verse 10 and 12. My source is the Textus Receptus. Have you heard of it?

This would be Strong”s # 3313…
1) a part
a) a part due or assigned to one
b) lot, destiny
2) one of the constituent parts of a whole
a) in part, partly, in a measure, to some degree, as respects a part, severally, individually
b) any particular, in regard to this, in this respect.)

So not only is your definition incorrect, you number is wrong as well. Do you have a clue yet?

13 But now abideth (MENO) faith, hope, and love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

WMSSID SAID - These are two independent sentences.

The MSS will not support this thought of two sentences. Regardless, the “context” mandates the words are connected in thought – that is, the thought Paul presents in this verse is not divided. There are -3- things that continue to abide – faith, hope and love. “Prophecy” is not mentioned neither is it a consideration in the context.

While you capitalized “meno”, the Greek word for abideth, you did not explain why it may have any significance to the discussion. Does it have any to you?

WMSSID SAID - The first reads: "But now it (prophecy in part) will remain."

Prophecy??? Prophecy is not under consideration by Paul at this point in the passage – faith, hope, and love are! You have literally REWORDED the verse to make it say what YOU want it to say. This is disingenuous and unacceptable. This is the reason and source of your spurious doctrine!

The first part of the verse reads this way: (Source: MSS – Vatican Manuscript.)

13 “And now abides (nuni de menei) faith, hope, and love, these three…”

Literally: “Now but abides…” Context: Faith, hope, and love.

It does NOT say “But now it (prophecy in part) will remain…” as YOU say above!
This is YOUR perversion of the verse!

WMSSID SAID - "In part" and "perfect" are neuter nouns, while most all other words are masculine or feminine.

You have now shifted back to verse 10… This is true about gender – and it is an important reason this verse can NOT be making reference to the Christ – which would have required a masculine noun.

WMSSID SAID - This is to contrast the "temporary" with the "permanent" (7 Spirits of God).

The -7- spirits of God, whatever you make them out to be, are NOT in the context of this passage! You got lost somewhere! In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul clearly contrasts the temporary nature of SGs (prophecy and knowledge) with the permanent nature of what was coming to “perfection”, that being God’s revealed Word.

WMSSID SAID - The second sentence is: "Faith, hope Extreme Love (agape) these three; but greatest of these the Extreme Love."

Paul states that the greatest of the three is love.

WMSSID SAID - "It will remain" (MENEI) is incompatible with "faith, hope, love."

The context is screaming that you are wrong because of your misapplication.
- - - - - - - - - -

WMSSID SAID - But you did not reply to my message of a New Covenant. You did not reply to the 7 Spirits of God identified in Rev 5.12, Rev 7.12, and several other lists. This is irrersponsible to ignore the 7 Spirits of God.

These items are not the topic of conversation on this thread!

You need to reply to what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, specifically…

Verse 8 – What is “vanishing away” and why?
Verse 9 – Identify what was “in part” and why Paul referred to it as such.
Verse 10 – What is “that which is perfect” ?
Verse 10 – Identify what is “in part” and when it shall be “done away”.
Verse 11 & 12 – Explain the -2- analogies, what they mean, and WHY Paul would use such analogies at this point in the passage.
Verse 11 – Then, make application of the analogies to what Paul has said prior in the passage! (Hint: Analogies are used to explain what has previously been taught.)
Verse 13 – Identify from the verse what “abides”/remains. (Hint: 3 things now abide!)


Are you up to the truth???

 

[- DRA -]

Apollos,

Greetings, brother.

I appreciate your efforts to sort through the post and try to make sense of the fragmented thoughts. I gave it a quick going over, and thought about responding, but decided to spend my time dealing with some other posts.

Glad to see you're now free of the "Dirty Guys!" In all honesty, I can say for a fact I've never heard the English translators described in such a way. Granted, every little aspect of their efforts wasn't perfect, but overall, they have given us some very accurate translations to work with (e.g., NKJ, NKJV, ASV, NASV, & ESV). I suspect you are like I am ... rather reluctant to give up these translations for one we've never seen or heard of. And, somehow we are supposed to be impressed by the translation reflecting one man's work versus the works of numerous committees of scholars.

 

[Apollos1]

DRA -

Grace and Peace to you my brother...

Always a pleasure to hear from you.

It appears that wmssid was a "drive by". He has had adequate time to respond and has not. I figured as much. I admit I was irritated at both the content and tone of his posts. (Did it show? )

I grew up using the KJV. I now prefer and study from the ASV, although I might use any number of versions for a specific application if I find the rendering is both accurate and clearer. There is a certain amount of "trust" placed in the older translations like KJV and ASV. I like to remind others that with those two translations we have the work of (55 + 101) 156 Greek scholars of their day. 156 versus one? That's no contest!

So... have you seen any good miracles lately?

 

[wmssid]

To: DRA

<Quote> "Therefore, we can ensure we have the truth about what it means to "believe" in the Lord by harmonizing our understanding of John 3:16 (as presented in its context) with the conversions. Make sense?
Bottom line. Don't take my word for it. I humbly suggest sitting at the Master's feet for awhile with Matthew 4:5-7 and Matthew 22:23-33. To me, it sets the foundation for seeing things God's way.

[/quote]

Every preacher that I have heard teach on John 3.16 has lied about it, for they left out the qualifyig verse:

"He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (Iesous Anointed) - Jn 3.18.

This is one of the many verses identifying Israel as the "Original Antichrist."

But then, that is Old Testament! Why do you never quote the New Testament?

When was the 42 Months?

I ask many people in this wicked generation, "Do you have any questions about the Bible?"

One and all reply "No."

 

[Michael_]

So... have you seen any good miracles lately?

I have: I've just read this far into this thread! The Lord is really doing a work in me by giving me the patience to read all this.

Now that is defying many natural laws!!

 

[Michael_]

Actually, I bore false witness against myself; I didn't read every word. Those mile long posts are too much for me.