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edrogati

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Another postulate I've heard for the cambrian explosion is sex. As soon as you have sexual reproduction, the fact that each new DNA host is actually carrying a combination of alleles from two different DNA hosts (with a few mutations) rather than merely reproducing a complete set of alleles (with a few mutations) from one DNA host means that variation, and thus evolution, can work a lot quicker. That's also a reason why no such period of rapid speciation has occurred since - you only get to invent sex once.

So there was no sexual reproduction before the Cambrian? I'm not trying to be difficult; I honestly don't remember from what I learned in intro to geology.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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If you read up on the theory of evolution there is no place for god/s.

If god/s are purposely guiding life, then it is not evolution.

So there is no such thing as theistic evolution, it is just a term to make religious people feel as if they are at the end of some imaginary line culminating with us. The problem with this view is that evolution is still occurring even within the human population, so we are NOT the final outcome of life on Earth, that distinction will go to some creature in the distant future.

Please, CL, you're better than this. You're not consol. Please stop (A) making assumptions about people's motives and (B) making strawmen out of people's (widely varied) beliefs. Theistic evolution covers a multitude of positions. I, for one, do not believe that humans are the end of the evolutionary line, nor the ultimate purpose of the universe. That doesn't mean G/god/s can't be part of the picture.

Edrogati has a different view to me. CactusMJ may be different to both of us. And ditto Cabal. Please leave the broad-brush painting to consol. Thanks.
 
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MarcusHill

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So there was no sexual reproduction before the Cambrian? I'm not trying to be difficult; I honestly don't remember from what I learned in intro to geology.

According to some, for instance Nicholas Butterfield (Bangiomorpha pubescens n. gen., n. sp.: implications for the evolution of sex, multicellularity, and the Mesoproterozoic/Neoproterozoic radiation of eukaryotes, Paleobiology, vol. 26, p. 386, 2000). (I'm not a biologist, but I am an academic, so finding this stuff is just a bit of Googling for me).

You're being far from difficult. You're actively and genuinely trying to learn, and I for one will never criticise someone doing that.
 
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edrogati

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Please, CL, you're better than this. You're not consol. Please stop (A) making assumptions about people's motives and (B) making strawmen out of people's (widely varied) beliefs. Theistic evolution covers a multitude of positions. I, for one, do not believe that humans are the end of the evolutionary line, nor the ultimate purpose of the universe. That doesn't mean G/god/s can't be part of the picture.

Edrogati has a different view to me. CactusMJ may be different to both of us. And ditto Cabal. Please leave the broad-brush painting to consol. Thanks.

It's hard for me to express what I believe the ultimate purpose of the universe is without getting more into theology, but it's also hard for me to avoid. Like I've said, I started out with the Bible first and came into what understanding I have of science relatively late in my life. It's important for me to try to integrate the two. I don't know how to strictly talk about nature because for me God is *always* involved, whether as the originator of the process or as directing it throughout. I won't say that it's impossible, just difficult. I know the theology. I still have much to learn about the science.

Again, in my view, God is more than a "god of the gaps". To me he IS the explanation, not just something to stick into what we don't understand. But it's important to learn about the evidence of what has happened that's presented in front of us. The Bible doesn't speak of everything. As one of the New Testament writers said (paraphrased), "the heavens speak forth the glory of God". How can we understand what they speak if we don't bother opening the book of nature to read it? The more we learn about nature, the more we understand what its author meant to communicate.

I don't want to purposefully offend those of us here who think differently. What good would that do? Unfortunately, it seems that some of us, myself included, offend and get offended without that being the purpose. I would like to converse with consol, but my take on things seems to be so opposite to his that I don't know where to begin. :(
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Please, CL, you're better than this. You're not consol. Please stop (A) making assumptions about people's motives and (B) making strawmen out of people's (widely varied) beliefs. Theistic evolution covers a multitude of positions. I, for one, do not believe that humans are the end of the evolutionary line, nor the ultimate purpose of the universe. That doesn't mean G/god/s can't be part of the picture.

Edrogati has a different view to me. CactusMJ may be different to both of us. And ditto Cabal. Please leave the broad-brush painting to consol. Thanks.

OK agreed, this is why I seldom enter the apologetics forum.

If I am going to discuss theistic evolution then how many theistic stand points are there and why do they need a god/s.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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It's hard for me to express what I believe the ultimate purpose of the universe is without getting more into theology, but it's also hard for me to avoid. Like I've said, I started out with the Bible first and came into what understanding I have of science relatively late in my life. It's important for me to try to integrate the two. I don't know how to strictly talk about nature because for me God is *always* involved, whether as the originator of the process or as directing it throughout. I won't say that it's impossible, just difficult. I know the theology. I still have much to learn about the science.

Again, in my view, God is more than a "god of the gaps". To me he IS the explanation, not just something to stick into what we don't understand. But it's important to learn about the evidence of what has happened that's presented in front of us. The Bible doesn't speak of everything. As one of the New Testament writers said (paraphrased), "the heavens speak forth the glory of God". How can we understand what they speak if we don't bother opening the book of nature to read it? The more we learn about nature, the more we understand what its author meant to communicate.

I don't want to purposefully offend those of us here who think differently. What good would that do? Unfortunately, it seems that some of us, myself included, offend and get offended without that being the purpose. I would like to converse with consol, but my take on things seems to be so opposite to his that I don't know where to begin. :(

How about starting a thread on, let’s say

Do we need a God to Explain the Geological and Biological record as recorded in the Earth’s Sediments?

This should give us a scientific basis for discussion
 
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MarcusHill

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If I am going to discuss theistic evolution then how many theistic stand points are there and why do they need a god/s.

There are, as far as I know, a spectrum of standpoints, from "light the blue touch paper" almost deistic ideas that God set things up and (possibly) did the abiogenesis, but let everything else go along by itself all the way to actually guiding the selections directly or indirectly. I doubt that many TE believers think they need a god to be involved, they merely believe in this involvement as a matter of faith. The exceptions would be ID folks who think the "designer" poked its hand in to create the "irreducibly complex" systems (ignorable as their gapgod will continue to be squeezed out) and the deist types who might claim a god is needed for abiogenesis, but accept evolution proper as naturalistic.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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There are, as far as I know, a spectrum of standpoints, from "light the blue touch paper" almost deistic ideas that God set things up and (possibly) did the abiogenesis, but let everything else go along by itself all the way to actually guiding the selections directly or indirectly. I doubt that many TE believers think they need a god to be involved, they merely believe in this involvement as a matter of faith. The exceptions would be ID folks who think the "designer" poked its hand in to create the "irreducibly complex" systems (ignorable as their gapgod will continue to be squeezed out) and the deist types who might claim a god is needed for abiogenesis, but accept evolution proper as naturalistic.


It sounds to me as if theists are Christians that understand the bible is wrong, with respect to the history of the Earth and Universe, but still want a comfort blanket to soften the blows of life.

I suppose giving up eternity in paradise is a difficult thing to do, and theistic religion gives the believers the ability of accepting all that science teaches us, but at the same time retaining their dreams of meeting and spending eternity in heaven with deceased loved one’s.

Nice though, but I do not buy into it.
 
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Bombila

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It's hard for me to express what I believe the ultimate purpose of the universe is without getting more into theology, but it's also hard for me to avoid. Like I've said, I started out with the Bible first and came into what understanding I have of science relatively late in my life. It's important for me to try to integrate the two. I don't know how to strictly talk about nature because for me God is *always* involved, whether as the originator of the process or as directing it throughout. I won't say that it's impossible, just difficult. I know the theology. I still have much to learn about the science.

Again, in my view, God is more than a "god of the gaps". To me he IS the explanation, not just something to stick into what we don't understand. But it's important to learn about the evidence of what has happened that's presented in front of us. The Bible doesn't speak of everything. As one of the New Testament writers said (paraphrased), "the heavens speak forth the glory of God". How can we understand what they speak if we don't bother opening the book of nature to read it? The more we learn about nature, the more we understand what its author meant to communicate.

I don't want to purposefully offend those of us here who think differently. What good would that do? Unfortunately, it seems that some of us, myself included, offend and get offended without that being the purpose. I would like to converse with consol, but my take on things seems to be so opposite to his that I don't know where to begin. :(

If it's of any help at all, when I was a theist, I thought of Creation in these terms:

God conceived the idea of Creation, the idea of a universe. Having concieved it, being omniscient, he knew at that moment how to engineer it, how it would unfold, the moment when humans would become intelligent enough to wonder about Creation, and everything that would occur thereafter. In that same moment, he created it.

Thinking about it that way, there was no need to try to shoehorn God into micro-managing the universe, no need to question evolution or the age of the planet or the rise of humanity, because everything was already accomplished. I thought it was just as possible that when God thought about Creation, some minute difference in his idea might have produced an entirely different universe, but this is the one he thought into existence.

For me, that allowed all science to be compatible with theism, as we were just learning about what God had already done.

The Bible, of course, isn't compatible with my early theism. But as a theist, I couldn't reconcile much of the Bible with reality, and viewed it as a faulty record of human thought about God. I suppose, even though I thought myself a Christian, I was more of a Deist.

Of course, my youthful theories crumbled eventually in the attempt to reconcile Omnibenevolence with any view of Creation, given Omniscience.

But there might be something in there that you can think about.
 
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Bombila

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This is my take on all of this:

When God created the universe, Lucifer was jealous --- he wanted it; but when God handed it over to Adam, Lucifer was, no doubt, furious. So he convinces 1/3 of the angels to follow him in "storming the castle", so to speak, but the rebellion fails.

Lucifer's next tactic? If you can't obtain the universe by force, obtain it subtly, so he tricks Adam into handing it over to him legally.

At this point, God says to Lucifer, "Okay, you finally got what you wanted. Let's see you keep it running; and, just like they say --- be careful what you ask for --- Lucifer suddenly found himself in possession of this entire universe and, not being omnipotent, he cannot keep it running, and it is losing energy or, as we say, winding down.

In an effort to give it back to God, He presented it to Jesus at the temptation in the wilderness (for a price), and Jesus said, "Nothing doing."

AV, am I interpreting this correctly? You seem to be saying you believe Lucifer is running the universe as a kind of Demiurge, and God has essentially left him to it. This sounds very like a Gnostic concept, which I think almost every mainstream Christian denomination considers heresy.

If this is what you really believe, it puts much of your regular discourse in a very strange and different light.
 
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AV1611VET

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AV1611VET

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AV, am I interpreting this correctly? You seem to be saying you believe Lucifer is running the universe as a kind of Demiurge, and God has essentially left him to it. This sounds very like a Gnostic concept, which I think almost every mainstream Christian denomination considers heresy.
Not even close ---
Answers.com --- demiurge said:
  1. A powerful creative force or personality.
  2. A public magistrate in some ancient Greek states.
  3. Demiurge A deity in Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and other religions who creates the material world and is often viewed as the originator of evil.
  4. Demiurge A Platonic deity who orders or fashions the material world out of chaos.
Lucifer didn't create anything --- the Creation was an act of omnipotence.
 
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Bombila

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Not even close ---
[/list]Lucifer didn't create anything --- the Creation was an act of omnipotence.

Alright, leaving out the definition of Lucifer as a demiurge, you are still claiming (I think) this:

AV - "At this point, God says to Lucifer, "Okay, you finally got what you wanted. Let's see you keep it running; and, just like they say --- be careful what you ask for --- Lucifer suddenly found himself in possession of this entire universe and, not being omnipotent, he cannot keep it running, and it is losing energy or, as we say, winding down."

God gave Creation to Lucifer to run, therefore, although not able to do a good job of it, Lucifer presently is in unimpeded possession of the universe, and God is in a 'hands-off' mode?

Still soundin' kinda Gnostic to me.

Btw, I'm not trying to 'catch' you at something, just this is not the theology I would have expected you to be in support of, so I'm somewhat surprised. Learn somethin' new, etc...

I still wish you'd change your avatar - I suspect it colours some of the interchanges you have with others: we are a visual species, and at least for me, that image conjures up associations with annoying kid brothers and pre-adolescent male silliness. Of course, that may be your intention, in which case, carry on.
 
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edrogati

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How about starting a thread on, let’s say

Do we need a God to Explain the Geological and Biological record as recorded in the Earth’s Sediments?

This should give us a scientific basis for discussion

No. Short thread. :(

My need for a God is personal, not scientific. Like I've said before, I don't believe in a god who only fits in the gaps in our knowledge.
 
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Naraoia

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The arrival of hard parts and the increase of oxygen would have opened up host of unexploited niches, something that usually leads to evolutionary booms.

Hard parts require calcification. calcium is required for certain cellular functions so some of it was always in the environment. Storing it in a structural form (like our bones) is actually not a bad way of ensuring that the organism always has a readliy available supply, in addition to its protective properties. Calcium got in the water the same way sodium did, it washed in from dissolving and weathering of rocks that contained it. A few billion years of accumulation put enough in the water that organisms could utilize it.

I wonder if oxygen and hard parts were connected (I'm sure this isn't my own idea but I don't know where I got it :(). Hard shells can cover much of an animal's body surface, so less surface is available for gas exchange. That would mean things like a clam's or a trilobite's shell (and the accompanying ecological opportunities) aren't possible till there's a minimum level of oxygen in the water (and/or the animal has a gill to absorb it more efficiently). Though this hypothesis doesn't cover small hard parts such as spines and stings.

Another postulate I've heard for the cambrian explosion is sex. As soon as you have sexual reproduction, the fact that each new DNA host is actually carrying a combination of alleles from two different DNA hosts (with a few mutations) rather than merely reproducing a complete set of alleles (with a few mutations) from one DNA host means that variation, and thus evolution, can work a lot quicker. That's also a reason why no such period of rapid speciation has occurred since - you only get to invent sex once.

My problem with sex is that AFAIK the Cambrian explosion is an explosion of (multicellular) animal life. I don't know if there was a similar radiation in other eukaryotes at the same time but I've never heard of any. And clearly sex predates animals because most eukaryotes have it. (It could be that sex evolved more than once, though*. Then the question would be whether it caused similar explosions every time it appeared in a group of creatures.)

My favourite idea is a combination of ecology and development (which also allows a role for oxygen and hard parts). The boom in diversity could be due to a boom in complexity; once a threshold level of genetic complexity was present in development (eg. a number of front-to-back "compartments" of gene expression), all sorts of features - heads, sense organs, muscles, appendages etc. - could evolve relatively easily (this sort of compartmentation means that one compartment or group of compartments can be modified independently of the others. You could develop legs near the bottom of your sides without sprouting random legs all over your body).

Of course with more available body parts you have more ecological options. You could be a better burrower, an active predator, a sophisticated filter feeder etc. You could also get into massive arms races. More diversity --> more ecological interactions --> more pressure to evolve, and there's your positive feedback loop until the ecospace is full to bursting.

Development could also help explain why no (or few**) phyla appeared after the CE. When relatively complex bodies first originated there would be little competition in the realm of big, complex and motile things. You could tweak your basic developmental program, be not-so-great and still get along until you evolved a better version.

Once, however, a few lineages hit on a good program and radiated into the available niches, new (and likely not-so-great) experiments would've found it much harder to survive. After each mass extinction, there still would be complex survivors with a head start. Furthermore, these survivors would've built additional complexity on their basic phylum-specific developmental plans since the Cambrian, so it would've been even more difficult for them to evolve a new body plan that actually works (try to rebuild a foundation with a house on top of it).

I would have to know more about development and body plans and stuff to know if this is really a good idea or just sounds fancy but at the moment I rather like it. All this, of course, assuming "phyla" represent something real about animals and aren't just random lineages like all others. These authors seem to think they do (and they say it's the developmental genetic "compartment maps", rather than the "body plan" per se, that's phylum-specific. I took their word for it.)

---

*I honestly don't know what the evidence says about that. I don't know how conserved the process of meiosis is, for example, and whether the differences between various creatures indicate descent with modification or convergent evolution. (And I'm damn lazy and won't do the reading right now)

**IIRC there's at least one phylum that's thought to have originated after the Cambrian but I can't recall which one it was.
 
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juvenissun

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I wanted to differentiate between Theistic Evolution and other views on the driving mechanism. I guess I keep choosing the wrong names for things. :(

Theistic evolution is quite different from atheistic evolution. However, the content and the detail of theistic evolution are not unified. Different theistic evolutionist has different view on how does God "intervene" evolutional process. This has been discussed in the Origin Theology forum.
 
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AV1611VET

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I still wish you'd change your avatar - I suspect it colours some of the interchanges you have with others: we are a visual species, and at least for me, that image conjures up associations with annoying kid brothers and pre-adolescent male silliness. Of course, that may be your intention, in which case, carry on.
Interesting --- since just this morning, I considered changing it to Lurch.

lurch_butler3a.jpg


But I'll stick with Alfred E. Neuman (no offense).
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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OK agreed, this is why I seldom enter the apologetics forum.

If I am going to discuss theistic evolution then how many theistic stand points are there and why do they need a god/s.
Thanks for the civil response -- you're blunt but fair :D And reasonable. Oh how I love reasonable.

Anyway, MarcusHill and Bombila have pretty well covered your point. In particular, I'd guess cardinality(TE positions) = cardinality(TEs); and the "need" is not to have a god but to reconcile* having a god (which is generally believed for some other reason) with the scientific evidence at hand.

*Possibly not the best word. Not trying to imply that there is necessarily a conflict, just that these two things have to gel to avoid cognitive dissonance.

So, moving on to:
It sounds to me as if theists are Christians that understand the bible is wrong, with respect to the history of the Earth and Universe, but still want a comfort blanket to soften the blows of life.
"Wrong"... a loaded word. If you view the Bible as something other than a record of religious myths (and I used the word in its proper sense -- nobody get uptight), then yes, I guess it's wrong. But then I'd say the reader/interpreter is reading/interpreting it wrong, too. Again, how TEs view the Bible is probably very wide-ranging. To me, it's more a record of a specific group's attempts to understand God. (In which case, it matters not in the slightest that they knew nothing of geology.)

I suppose giving up eternity in paradise is a difficult thing to do, and theistic religion gives the believers the ability of accepting all that science teaches us, but at the same time retaining their dreams of meeting and spending eternity in heaven with deceased loved one’s.
Again, I don't have any particular belief on the afterlife. I think the message of Christ is related to the here and now, not vague nevernevers. But, again, that's probably just me. Interestingly, though, I don't think giving up the idea of eternal paradise was that hard for me. I certainly don't remember angsting over it at all.

If you really do want to understand TEism, it will help -- I think -- to start with more "neutral" assumptions regarding motive. You seem to think we're some form of atheists too scared to accept reality and need a cosmic hug. Or something. As I said above, I think many are just those that believe -- for some reason, probably not just "but I want to see Fido again in heaven" -- in some form of g/God, but who also accept scientific reality when it's presented to them. TEism is a pretty natural result.

Nice though, but I do not buy into it.
Fair enough. I don't see any reason for you to.
 
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juvenissun

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I understand that. Please understand why its important that God IS involved, at least for me. I don't think that evolution has stopped or do I think that humanity is the only important species on the planet. I started my thought life with a belief in God and it's hard to discard. The Bible indicates that humanity WAS the goal for theological reasons. The fact that science and Christian theology disagree on this is difficult for me. I want to understand science, but it's hard to leave my theology out of it. That's why I try to let science tell me the how and let theology tell me why. If my God is only the "God of the gaps", then he's not much of one. That doesn't mean that he influences every single beat of my heart or anything like that. But, in my opinion, he set up and influenced the process to get to the point where there was a human being to have one.

What you said here is a different problem than the Cambrian Explosion. Cambrian explosion is hard to study because the lack of fossils. But the evolution from chimp to human left A LOT of fossils, and should be the easiest one to find proof. You can see the result by yourself, evolutionist could not even put the Neanderthals at the right position of classification. There are A LOT of "evidences" to support that human derived from chimp. There are also A LOT of "evidences" to reject that "theory".

No matter it is the Cambrian explosion or the origin of human, evolution has hard time to solidly prove itself in ANT case.
 
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juvenissun

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So there was no sexual reproduction before the Cambrian? I'm not trying to be difficult; I honestly don't remember from what I learned in intro to geology.

Think it this way:

If it were true, then the fact itself is a mystery.
If it were not true, then the argument could not stand.

Either way, this idea does not solve the problem.
 
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