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edrogati

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Of course god is needed, I admit that. She is the comfort blanket to get weak minded people scared of their own mortality through life, and an excellent job she does of it. Apart that is from the irrational though that accompanies her.

Chordates, as I've said before, I'm not scared of my own mortality. I know that I don't know everything and will repeatedly admit it, but "weak minded" I am not.
 
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AV1611VET

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Chordates, as I've said before, I'm not scared of my own mortality. I know that I don't know everything and will repeatedly admit it, but "weak minded" I am not.
Matthew 5:11 said:
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
 
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juvenissun

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Actually, the contents are all too human -- at least most of it's a good read.



Dismantling one seems easy enough -- why should he or you care what his god looks like?

My friend is very serious about knowing his god. And I am very curious.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Chordates, as I've said before, I'm not scared of my own mortality. I know that I don't know everything and will repeatedly admit it, but "weak minded" I am not.

I am not being specific, this is a general observation of the christians i know.

The weak minded refers to creationists.
 
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ChordatesLegacy

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Sounds like creationism.

The rapidity to which events occurs is relative.

It would be correct to state that a volcano erupted suddenly today, but the sub-aerial eruption is just one small step in a very long sequence of events leading up to eruption, which itself is not the last event.

Suddenly is not a word I would use to describe creationism.

Maybe mystically or magically; these conjure up the right context to me.
 
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atomweaver

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It is not true.

But I will stop here since this is not the place to go too far from the topic.

I don't know much about the details.

I did not do any literature search on that.

I would be exceedingly glad to share some of my understanding to you. But it seems this thread is not the place for it

Thank you for the clarification.

First, is the mechanism of the genome "fusion" well known? I guess not.

And with that the final nail goes into the coffin of Juve's claims to be a scientist.

It has been pretty much non-scientific fare, so far... I know there’s a lot of technical content to topics here, juvenissun, but even considering that, you are almost 100% absent of any detail in your replies. Why bother even logging in and pretending at a scientific background, if you're only going to forever play in the shallowest end of the proverbial pool? Discussions/debates are supposed to be about getting into the details of a topic. You need to challenge yourself more, intellectually... and start diving deeper. If that means you post less, well... lets just say I don't think anyone on either side of the discussion will regret not reading posts with content like the ones quoted, above.



“The Devil is in the details” is just a euphemism, you know. :D It is not an actual sin to provide depth to your comments/observations/arguments.
 
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Naraoia

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It is not meaningful to argue whether we understand the water cycle process or not. It is about the process which still functions on the earth. Remind you that Venus and Mars had this process BEFORE.
And whether we understand the water cycle - or whether Mars had it before - is not the point. The point is that there's nothing miraculous about the particular values the relevant parameters take.

Mars is smaller and further away from the sun (and, if I remember a recent New Scientist article correctly, it had a completely different geological history from earth, accompanied by a crazy fluctuation in its axial tilt). Venus is closer to the sun and for some reason has a hellish atmosphere and rotates extra-slowly.

If either of those planets would support life and the earth not, you'd be wondering how miraculous a 500°C atmosphere is, or how wonderfully Mars is placed in the narrow zone where life is possible.

Each planet is unique in its own ways. The fact that the earth's uniqueness happens to be good for life as we know it doesn't mean it's any more miraculous than Venus' extra-slow rotation.

OK, I am not going to reply more comments on this issue.
Your decision. *shrugs*
 
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Naraoia

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Thank you for the clarification.
You're always welcome so long as you remain civil :)

First, is the mechanism of the genome "fusion" well known? I guess not. If not, then we only have a feature, but not a mechanism.
To be honest I don't know much about the mechanism. I found this very old mailing list post, but there doesn't seem to be a lot about the actual mechanisms. I suggest you ask someone who knows a lot about recombination and DNA repair. My best guess is that a piece of a chromosome is accidentally broken off and then put back in the wrong place (there are known ways of putting broken DNA back together, that much I remember from my biochemistry class last semester :)).

If so, the nature of this evidence is no better than the morphological change of skulls, for example.
Actually, morphological change isn't that mysterious. You can often track down morphological changes to specific mutations in specific genes or their regulatory regions. Genes that control development can affect various aspects of morphology relatively easily. Development is a wonderfully intricate network of interactions; each controlling where, when and in what amounts things (proteins, cell types, tissues, organs) are produced.

An example of simple genetic changes leading to visible morphological change is the pelvic spines of three-spine sticklebacks. Sticklebacks can reduce or regrow pelvic spines (in fact, the entire pelvis) by mutations in a gene called Pitx1. The gene is expressed in many different parts of a stickleback embryo, and a different "switch" corresponds to each body part. A mutation in one switch can increase, decrease or turn off the expression of the gene in a body part, and since Pitx1 controls other genes, the whole pathway producing, say, a pelvis, is affected. You can find little videos on stickleback spines and their genetic switches here.

Second, the Chromosome 2 difference is not the only difference between ape and human. and the function of Chromosome 2 difference is not clear.
It has no function (I know of) - and that's why it can't be put down to intelligent design.

AND we see how much differences are there between ape and human. I am not sure how to put this into a correct statement. But the Chromosome 2 difference between ape and human is NOT a strong evidence of evolution because it does not explain the huge differences between the two species.
You seem to be confusing evidence for evolution with evidence for how some evolutionary events happened.

What we (including us biology people) usually mean by evolution on this forum includes several related ideas. Technically, "evolution" is simply a change in the genetic make-up of a population. Descent with modification is basically this; and that's where the specific changes that happened from some prehistoric ape to humans belong. A related idea is common descent: really, if creatures are capable of descent with modification, couldn't they come from a common ancestor by that process?

Now, you can infer common descent without knowing the details of the modification. The fused chromosome tells us nothing about what makes us different from chimps (chromosome fusion didn't do anything to the functional part of the chromosomes) - it is only evidence that we once shared a common ancestor. Some genetic markers can tell you something about two people's relatedness but nothing about why one has curly hair and the other has straight hair. You need to look at functional genes (or once-functional pseudogenes :)) to find that out.

What are those in humans and chimps? I don't know much about the specifics, but these look exactly like what you are looking for.
 
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juvenissun

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You're always welcome so long as you remain civil :)

To be honest I don't know much about the mechanism. I found this very old mailing list post, but there doesn't seem to be a lot about the actual mechanisms. I suggest you ask someone who knows a lot about recombination and DNA repair. My best guess is that a piece of a chromosome is accidentally broken off and then put back in the wrong place (there are known ways of putting broken DNA back together, that much I remember from my biochemistry class last semester :)).

Actually, morphological change isn't that mysterious. You can often track down morphological changes to specific mutations in specific genes or their regulatory regions. Genes that control development can affect various aspects of morphology relatively easily. Development is a wonderfully intricate network of interactions; each controlling where, when and in what amounts things (proteins, cell types, tissues, organs) are produced.

An example of simple genetic changes leading to visible morphological change is the pelvic spines of three-spine sticklebacks. Sticklebacks can reduce or regrow pelvic spines (in fact, the entire pelvis) by mutations in a gene called Pitx1. The gene is expressed in many different parts of a stickleback embryo, and a different "switch" corresponds to each body part. A mutation in one switch can increase, decrease or turn off the expression of the gene in a body part, and since Pitx1 controls other genes, the whole pathway producing, say, a pelvis, is affected. You can find little videos on stickleback spines and their genetic switches here.

It has no function (I know of) - and that's why it can't be put down to intelligent design.

You seem to be confusing evidence for evolution with evidence for how some evolutionary events happened.

What we (including us biology people) usually mean by evolution on this forum includes several related ideas. Technically, "evolution" is simply a change in the genetic make-up of a population. Descent with modification is basically this; and that's where the specific changes that happened from some prehistoric ape to humans belong. A related idea is common descent: really, if creatures are capable of descent with modification, couldn't they come from a common ancestor by that process?

Now, you can infer common descent without knowing the details of the modification. The fused chromosome tells us nothing about what makes us different from chimps (chromosome fusion didn't do anything to the functional part of the chromosomes) - it is only evidence that we once shared a common ancestor. Some genetic markers can tell you something about two people's relatedness but nothing about why one has curly hair and the other has straight hair. You need to look at functional genes (or once-functional pseudogenes :)) to find that out.

What are those in humans and chimps? I don't know much about the specifics, but these look exactly like what you are looking for.

Thanks for the informative argument. It is too much for me. I don't know enough to continue the debate and I don't have time to study. Sorry, and thanks again.
 
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juvenissun

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It has been pretty much non-scientific fare, so far... I know there’s a lot of technical content to topics here, juvenissun, but even considering that, you are almost 100% absent of any detail in your replies. Why bother even logging in and pretending at a scientific background, if you're only going to forever play in the shallowest end of the proverbial pool? Discussions/debates are supposed to be about getting into the details of a topic. You need to challenge yourself more, intellectually... and start diving deeper. If that means you post less, well... lets just say I don't think anyone on either side of the discussion will regret not reading posts with content like the ones quoted, above.



“The Devil is in the details” is just a euphemism, you know. :D It is not an actual sin to provide depth to your comments/observations/arguments.

How much meat is in your post? And how do you know I did not get into a lot of details somewhere else? I say what I want to say. Take it or leave it.

Sorry, I should not reply to your junk comment.
 
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Naraoia

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Thanks for the informative argument. It is too much for me. I don't know enough to continue the debate and I don't have time to study. Sorry, and thanks again.
You are welcome. And just so you know, I appreciate that "thanks".
 
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