Created by extra-terrestrials

[Tinker Grey]

Bump.

 

[seremela06]

Bump.

well, i guess they were tired of talking. i think that the majority of them just gave up. their logic was a bit ridiculous. understand that i don't agree with you either, but as a christian that has fallen away and come back, i can see everyone's view. all of these people debating with you are extremely closeminded. closemindedness never gets anything accomplished, and certainly doesn't help your point. the hell fire and brimstone approach (ie "i think you've missed a relationship with god") just [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es people off. it [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es me off and i'm a christian...

 

[Seve]

Why? If one accepts that God used evolution, why not allow that God might use aliens?

The difference, of course, is that evolution has evidence.

I don't know, though, that ET seeding is inherently incompatible with theology.

I know you didn't say "inherent", but "kind of". Do you want to elaborate?

Well, God is the one responsible for evolution to happen, since, He created all things that are physical in nature. It's even hinted and alluded in the book of Genesis, have ye not known?

 

[Tinker Grey]

What has that to do with what I asked Melethiel?

 

[Seve]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but based on my observation, most of the Evols, on this board, preach their Religion, or Belief, or Faith in mortal man's science, as fact. They attempt to show that Macro-Evolution has happened naturally.

Professing themselves to be wiser than God, they dismiss His Holy Word, as nothing more than Allegory, teaching stories, or Myth. They claim that God used Evolution as His method of producing life, while ignoring His Holy Word, which says that God CREATED. Would this be the case here?

God Bless

 

[Mallon]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but based on my observation, most of the Evols, on this board, preach their Religion, or Belief, or Faith in mortal man's science, as fact. They attempt to show that Macro-Evolution has happened naturally.

Professing themselves to be wiser than God, they dismiss His Holy Word, as nothing more than Allegory, teaching stories, or Myth. They claim that God used Evolution as His method of producing life, while ignoring His Holy Word, which says that God CREATED. Would this be the case here?

God Bless

Well, since you asked, you are definitely wrong on several accounts.
1) Faith, as defined by the Bible, is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see". As such, one's acceptance of evolutionary common descent is not faith-based nor religion because there is excellent evidence for it. Evolutionary creationists do not accept evolution because of some inherent desire for it to be true. We do so because that's what God's creation tells us in no uncertain terms.
2) Your insinuation that evolutionary creationists profess themselves to be wiser than God is quite insulting. We seek a genuine and humble understanding of the Bible just as you do. What we reject is the traditional, unbiblical notion that the Bible must accord with science. If there's one thing we've learned from the Bible, it's that God accomodates Himself to human experience and understanding in order deliver His timeless messages of truth and love. This is best exemplified by the Incarnation of Christ. Therefore, is it really so unChristian to believe that God would accomodate those same messages to the common myths and motifs of the first Hebrew people, as recorded in Genesis? You speak of non-literal accounts as though they are somehow ill-suited for God's purposes, but it's worth reminding you that Jesus taught in parables.
3) Lastly, you speak of evolution and creation as though they are somehow mutually exclusive, but this is not the case. It is entirely possible and consistent to be both evolved AND created. The Bible speaks of us as though we are each individually created (e.g., Psalm 139:13), yet we know now from science that at no point does God miraculously interfere with our development in the womb by attaching an eye, or a nose, or by carving out a mouth. This all unfolds via a natural process, ordained and sustained by God. We are both a product of natural order AND a creation. Ditto our evolutionary history.

 

[Seve]

Well, I present You as factual evidence that God made everything that moves, including Humans. All Humans descended from Adam, the first Human.

Science has NO idea How or When we inherited our Human Intelligence, but Moses knew, and told of it more than 3,000 years ago.

This evidence, which agrees with every true discovery of Science, History, is True to Scripture, and shows that You would Not be here, to post your ideas, if Noah had not brought Human Intelligence to this Planet of Apes.

The fact that you can organize a thought, and type it into your computer, separates you from all other animals, and identifies you as "Human".

Mindless Evolution nor Uncaring Nature produced Human Intelligence. That's the Big Lie and that's Evolutionism, the Evol Religion. No Un-Intelligent entity, nor Flawed Theory, ever produced anything. Jesus made it or it's Not here.

Sorry

 

[Melethiel]

Well, I present You as factual evidence that God made everything that moves, including Humans. All Humans descended from Adam, the first Human.

Science has NO idea How or When we inherited our Human Intelligence, but Moses knew, and told of it more than 3,000 years ago.

This evidence, which agrees with every true discovery of Science, History, is True to Scripture, and shows that You would Not be here, to post your ideas, if Noah had not brought Human Intelligence to this Planet of Apes.

The fact that you can organize a thought, and type it into your computer, separates you from all other animals, and identifies you as "Human".

Mindless Evolution nor Uncaring Nature produced Human Intelligence. That's the Big Lie and that's Evolutionism, the Evol Religion. No Un-Intelligent entity, nor Flawed Theory, ever produced anything. Jesus made it or it's Not here.

Sorry

Noah? Where'd Noah come it?

No Evolutionary Creationist would deny that God is the ultimate source of creation. The two are not mutually exclusive.

On a side note, why do you capitalize random words? It makes your posts somewhat difficult to read.

 

[busterdog]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but based on my observation, most of the Evols, on this board, preach their Religion, or Belief, or Faith in mortal man's science, as fact. They attempt to show that Macro-Evolution has happened naturally.

Professing themselves to be wiser than God, they dismiss His Holy Word, as nothing more than Allegory, teaching stories, or Myth. They claim that God used Evolution as His method of producing life, while ignoring His Holy Word, which says that God CREATED. Would this be the case here?

God Bless

Certainly we agree on what the significance of the Word.

The evolutionists say that because there is evidence of evolution, that must be what God was talking about. I don't accept that argument, but if that is how you are disposed, no amount of arguing about what the Word of God means is going change your theology.

Now we have made another step down the road by say, if aliens seeded the planet, then in reality, that is what God was talking about.

How do you react to that? It is so obviously different from what the Word says. It is so obviously lacking in evidence. Why is it on the table? God is not a super being. God is perfect, holy and all the true strength there is. The notion of an enhanced type of android making a lesser android, namely humans, is just hard to fit with any notion of sin, redemption, holiness, adoption, heaven, etc.

But, if its on the table, why couldnt people then have been created like Saruman's Uruk Hai in the Lord of the rings, or by Satan for that matter? Maybe when God says he loves us, maybe he meant that he loves us because he gets to enjoy watching our suffering and that is what he allowed the devil to create for his amusement. I am not sure whether there is even an end of taking common sense language and doing with it what you will, once you decide that there isn't a plain meaning.

So, why is this idea on the table? It is manifestly inferior to a story of a six day creation, the Spirit brooding on the waters, man being formed from the dust, talking snakes and all the rest. It is a bad, tabloid story without evidence. What possible (good) purpose could it serve?

 

[Mallon]

This evidence, which agrees with every true discovery of Science, History, is True to Scripture, and shows that You would Not be here, to post your ideas, if Noah had not brought Human Intelligence to this Planet of Apes.

You think my ideas are crazy, but I'll point out that you're the one talking about Noah "bringing intelligence" to a "Planet of the Apes."
Like Melethiel, I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're talking about.

The fact that you can organize a thought, and type it into your computer, separates you from all other animals, and identifies you as "Human".

According to the Bible, bearing the image of God is what makes us human, a quality that likely encompasses many things beyond our simple ability to think.

Mindless Evolution nor Uncaring Nature produced Human Intelligence. That's the Big Lie and that's Evolutionism, the Evol Religion. No Un-Intelligent entity, nor Flawed Theory, ever produced anything. Jesus made it or it's Not here.

If that's the way you feel, then I guess there's no arguing with you. I respectfully disagree, and I've presented my Bible-based case why above. If you don't want to address it, then there's no need to continue, I guess.

So, why is this idea on the table? It is manifestly inferior to a story of a six day creation, the Spirit brooding on the waters, man being formed from the dust, talking snakes and all the rest. It is a bad, tabloid story without evidence. What possible (good) purpose could it serve?

Heh heh. It's funny you should criticize panspermia for being without evidence while defending a story about a talking snake, Spirit brooding over the waters, etc., as historically accurate.
Let's be honest, though -- most of us here agree panspermia is a crackpot claim with no evidence in support of it. Please don't think this reflects the thoughts of all (or even a significant fraction of) evolutionary creationists.

 

[busterdog]

Heh heh. It's funny you should criticize panspermia for being without evidence while defending a story about a talking snake, Spirit brooding over the waters, etc., as historically accurate.
Let's be honest, though -- most of us here agree panspermia is a crackpot claim with no evidence in support of it. Please don't think this reflects the thoughts of all (or even a significant fraction of) evolutionary creationists.

Well, lets do a TE ranking of proofs (as I interpret your worldview):

Best: Conditions observed in nature.

Not as Good: In the absence of best evidence, scripture surface text.

Least satisfactory: Speculation that has neither science nor scripture to back it.

If I go with the plain meaning of Gen. 1-3, I have scriptural evidence. The alien idea has no evidence.

Yes, I would not expect that most TEs would indulge in these ideas. So, I don't see why it should get less ire than YEC. That is a bass-ackwards way to take issue with a TE perspective. The real problem for a YEC is that to rank this notion anywhere near the regard one should have for Scripture is troubling.

 

[Seve]

You think my ideas are crazy, but I'll point out that you're the one talking about Noah "bringing intelligence" to a "Planet of the Apes."
Like Melethiel, I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're talking about.

As you know, IF this Planet were covered with water (flood), above Everest, the water would still be here. A fig tree could not have germinated, grown, and put forth leaves within the week Scripture requires. Gen 8:10

The 1st World/Heaven -- where the garden of Eden was located -- made on the 2nd day (Gen. 1:6-8) surrounded by waters above and below it, was dissolved totally and completely by the universal flood. It fell like a drunkard and it shall Never rise again. ‘Want Scripture?

This present World – our universe - will be Dissolved with Fire. Everything living will be taken to the 3rd World or Heaven. Scripture available. In like manner, ALL Christians will be taken to the 3rd Heaven (New Jerusalem), before our World is Burned. We won't even need an Ark. See, no changes. God's Truth is written in Permanent Ink.

Thus, both Worlds or Universes, are Dissolved, in the end. The reason, the wickedness of mankind. Humans have the highest intelligence of all creatures but are also the most violent of creatures. Scripture tells us that if Jesus doesn't return, then NO flesh will be spared.

Noah & his Ark was raptured/brought to our present Earth – similar to the way Paul, the Apostle, was taken to the 3rd heaven -- when his World was destroyed in the Flood. Human Civilization can be traced to Noah's grandsons, who brought Human Intelligence to this planet of Apes.

Today's Humans contain the DNA of Mt Eve, a Prehistoric woman who lived 150-200K years ago. We also contain the abiltiy to know good and evil, and we have a higher intelligence than Any other Creature. How did we get this higher Intelligence? and When? History is clear. We began to build Human Civilization just AFTER Noah arrived some 10K +- years ago, just south of the mountains of Ararat. Scripture and History agree, but Evols remain ignorant of the Truth. If Noah had not left his world and came to this Planet, we would still be innocent Apes, because Evolution does NOT produce Humans. Human Intelligence must be inherited from another Human.


God Bless

 

[Mallon]

Awesome. Another local expert on human intelligence. You should get together with mark kennedy and write a book, Seve.

All kidding aside, I'm having a hard time understanding just where you stand (the randomly capitalized words and sentence fragments don't help). In one breath, you seem to disavow evolution, and then in another, you seem to cite it for support. See here, for example...

Today's Humans contain the DNA of Mt Eve, a Prehistoric woman who lived 150-200K years ago.

By "Mt Eve", I assume you mean "Mitochondrial Eve" -- a concept built on the foundation and using the tools of evolutionary science. But then you go on to disparage evolution here:

Scripture and History agree, but Evols remain ignorant of the Truth.

... and then back to assuming the evolutionary scenario:

If Noah had not left his world and came to this Planet, we would still be innocent Apes

It's confusing.

Besides all of which, I still don't see that you've refuted accomodationism in favour of concordism. You say that Scripture accords with science, but it strikes me that all you are doing is picking and chosing what bits of science to believe in order to line up with your literal (and might I add interesting) interpretation of Scripture. (AiG admits to doing the same. See their mission statements.)

Sorry, Seve, but I'm not buying it.

 

[Seve]

You are apparently unaware that creationists accept the adaptive nature that drives micro-evolution. What we reject is the leap of logic and faith being employed to try and apply the same mechanism to explain macro-evolution (the goo-to-you theory). Micro-evolution or descent with modification happens every time a baby is born.

When Jesus made the creatures, he made them in various "kinds", His kinds. No one knows His classification system except He, Himself. Some theorize that the kinds could be creeping, walking, crawling, flying, etc. kinds.

Micro is Descent with Modification, within His kinds.

Example: Cat's Family - A Lion (male) and a Tiger (female) producing a Giant offspring called "LIGER". (Please google it since I can not link at this time.

It's really amazing how the discovery of Science Today support the TRUTH of the Bible written many centuries ago -- Genesis 6:4 - the sons of God (prehistoric" mankind) producing GIANT offsprings - Mighty Men of old, men renown - AFTER their union with the Daughters of Men (human), as documented in Genesis 6.

On the other hand, Macro-Evolution is a Lie from the pits of Hell and excludes God from His own Creation. No entirely different kind species can produce offspring together. They are confined to their kind. The fact that God continues to Create confuses those who believe wolf like ungulates evolved into Whales.

Sorry

 

[Mallon]

You are apparently unaware that creationists accept the adaptive nature that drives micro-evolution. What we reject is the leap of logic and faith being employed to try and apply the same mechanism to explain macro-evolution (the goo-to-you theory). Micro-evolution or descent with modification happens every time a baby is born.

I am well aware that neocreationists accept microevolution. My confusion came about as a result of your citing evolutionary timelines (on the order of hundreds of thousands of years) and refering to humans as "innocent apes". If you don't believe humans are descended from apes, why would you ever refer to them as such?

When Jesus made the creatures, he made them in various "kinds", His kinds. No one knows His classification system except He, Himself. Some theorize that the kinds could be creeping, walking, crawling, flying, etc. kinds.

I am familiar with the neocreationist concept of "kinds" as well. As the fossil record and genetics attest to, these are non-existent entities in nature. Life is continuous. I hold that not even the Bible implies "kinds" are somehow intransient. If they were, God wouldn't have given us the command not to interbreed them (Lev 19:19). The Hebrew use of the word "kind" simply reflects an ancient understanding of animal life that does not accord with what we now know about common descent.

Example: Cat's Family - A Lion (male) and a Tiger (female) producing a Giant offspring called "LIGER". (Please google it since I can not link at this time.

How do you know that lions and tigers are not "kinds" in their own right? After all, Lev 19:19 implies that "kinds" can be interbreed. Does the "cat kind" you mention include house cats? Cheetah? Smilodon?
Again, there's really nothing useful or valid about the concept of "biblical kinds". That's why baraminology has produced nothing beyond conclusions based on gut instinct in the last 20 years. "They sorta look the same, therefore they belong to a 'kind'" isn't science. Especially considering that the further back we look in the fossil record, the more similar life begins to look. It's called life's nested hierarchy, and baraminology doesn't account for this pattern.

On the other hand, Macro-Evolution is a Lie from the pits of Hell and excludes God from His own Creation.

How is God excluded from macroevolution?

Sorry

Apology accepted.

 

[gluadys]

You are apparently unaware that creationists accept the adaptive nature that drives micro-evolution. What we reject is the leap of logic

What leap of logic? Can you explain how micro-evolution happens? Can you show how the process of macro-evolution is distinctly different and impossible given the reality of micro-evolution?

Micro is Descent with Modification, within His kinds.

How does macro-evolution differ from this?

On the other hand, Macro-Evolution is a Lie from the pits of Hell and excludes God from His own Creation.

To echo Mallon's question, how does macro-evolution exclude God?

No entirely different kind species can produce offspring together.

How can you know this? Especially since you said"

"No one knows His classification system except He, Himself."

How do you know that some of the hybrid offspring you see produced are not offspring of different kinds?

The fact that God continues to Create confuses those who believe wolf like ungulates evolved into Whales.

What new species has God created lately? How do we know they were not produced through descent with modification? How do we know that descent with modification is not God's material means of continuing to create?

 

[Seve]

You want a clear distinction? Here's one: "Microevolution is the process that is responsible for the many variations of some species of living things, such as dogs and finches. Macroevolution, on the other hand is the mythical process by which one kind of creature, such as a reptile, turns into another kind, such as a bird."

MICRO-evolution is observable. MACRO-evolution is strictly historical. It is classic equivocation by evolutionists to mean macroevolution when they speak of evolution, but turn to micro-evolution when asked for evidence.

Having a rich imagination doesn’t make an event repeatable, but it does demonstrate that non-repeatable events of the past are subject to speculation, which is what macro-evolution is.

Dream on.

 

[Seve]

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I am well aware that neocreationists accept microevolution. My confusion came about as a result of your citing evolutionary timelines (on the order of hundreds of thousands of years) and refering to humans as "innocent apes". If you don't believe humans are descended from apes, why would you ever refer to them as such?

Innocent animals live in caves and brush, but Humans always build cities. I have not claimed that our ancestors were stupid, but instead, have pointed out that God calls them the sons of God.

There were no humans, on this planet, until Noah arrived, which is confirmed by the fact that there are NO other Human Civilizations, older than Mesopotamia, just South of the mountains of Ararat.

Perhaps you mistake me telling the Truth, that Noah was the first Human to step on this Earth, for "brushing off" the accomplishments of the ancient prehistoric mankind.

I do not mean to imply that the ancient people, the sons of God, were any different than ourselves. They looked the same, could produce offspring with Humans, and were the pinnacle of evolutionary growth BUT they were Not Human.

The prehistoric mankind were innocent beings because they did Not know good and evil, and they had Never built a City, wrote a book, or worked one math problem. The offspring of the union of the sons of God and the descendants of Adam brought Human Civilization to this Planet of innocent animals.

God Bless

 

[Melethiel]

Innocent animals live in caves and brush, but Humans always build cities.

So...hunter/gatherer societies are not really human? Do we really want to go there?

 

[gluadys]

You want a clear distinction? Here's one: "Microevolution is the process that is responsible for the many variations of some species of living things, such as dogs and finches.

I did not ask what microevolution is responsible for. I asked if you knew how it works. I find it startling that many people who claim they "believe" in micro-evolution do not really know what it is.

How do you get many varieties of finches via micro-evolution? Do you know or don't you?

In what way does macro-evolution differ from this process? Is there really a different process?

Macroevolution, on the other hand is the mythical process by which one kind of creature, such as a reptile, turns into another kind, such as a bird."[/I]

According to you "No one knows His classification system except He, Himself."

How then do you know that reptiles and birds are different kinds?

MICRO-evolution is observable. MACRO-evolution is strictly historical.

Not true. Macro-evolution has been observed. In fact, those finches you spoke of are an instance of macro-evolution (though not one of the observed instances.)

By the way, if you don't know the classification of living things by kinds---as you have stated--you cannot define macro-evolution in terms of kinds and claim that it does not occur. There is no way you can tell if it happens or not unless you can distinguish one kind from another. But you can't because "No one knows His classification system except He, Himself."

Scientists don't define macro-evolution in terms of kinds. They define macro-evolution in terms of species. If you get a new species, that is macro-evolution and that has been observed.