Predestination and Election

[Ben johnson]

Jesus chose all 12. Show me how 6:70 & 15:15 do not assert "Judas was chosen an ordaINED to bear fruit".

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus knew who judas was and for the reason Jesus chose him.. So that scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[MamaZ]

Judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen.. It just was not salvation fruit of the fruit of the son of perdition.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Quote:
Not Judas chester
​

Have you erased Jn6:70 from your copy, "MamaZ"?

Jesus chose all twelve, and ordained all of them to bear fruit.

Find a way to deny that...

Yes, Jesus chose the twelve apostles and Jesus said to the apostles, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16). The choosing in that verse was not for salvation but for the special task of being an apostle. On that last evening Jesus gave His last address to eleven of His disciples and Judas was dismissed by Christ earlier because Christ knew that Judas will betray Him. In John 15. He speaks about two types of disciples with those eleven before Him who are real disciples, that you can discern which followers are true believers because they will bear fruit, obey, continue in His love, and remain in a close relationship with Him. False believers do none of those things and only follow Jesus temporarily. That is why Christ warns superficial followers of the terrible tragedy of being around Him like Judas, but not being saved.

 

[moonbeam]

Judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen.. It just was not salvation fruit of the fruit of the son of perdition.

It seems to me that mr johnson is determined to establish a solid connection between himself and Judas...he seems rather determined to do so.

 

[nobdysfool]

Judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen.. It just was not salvation fruit of the fruit of the son of perdition.

But according to Ben, Judas was "saved". He points to Judas as proof that one can "unsave" themselves. However, you have correctly pointed out that Judas Iscariot was chosen to bear the fruit that he did. Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas Iscariot would be His betrayer, and chose Judas Iscariot specifically for that role, "that the scriptures would be fulfilled". Judas bore the fruit he was chosen to bear, and fulfilled that which had been predestined and fore-ordained.

This blows a hole as big as an eighteen-wheeler in the middle of Ben's false doctrines.

 

[beloved57]

Quote:
Not Judas chester
​

Have you erased Jn6:70 from your copy, "MamaZ"?

Jesus chose all twelve, and ordained all of them to bear fruit.

Find a way to deny that...

one of them was a devil..

 

[Ben johnson]

In John6:70, Jesus said "I chose you, the twelve."

In Jn15:15, Jesus said: "I chose you (the Disciples) and appointed you to bear fruit, and your fruit remain."

So you all say that Jesus chose Judas to SINFUL fruit. You really believe that about Jesus' nature???

Now --- everyone please focus on what's happening at the end of John6.

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up the last day".
...many of His disciples said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
Jesus said, "Does this cause you to stumble? ...It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing, the words
........that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe."
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him by the Father."
As a result of this many disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore.
Jesus said to the twelve: "YOU aren't going to go away TOO, are you?"
Peter said, "Lord ...you have words of eternal life; we believe ...and know You are the Holy One of God."
Jesus said, "Dd I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

To put that in more concise terms:
Many disciples were LEAVING.
Jesus said to the twelve: "YOU are not going to leave TOO, are you!"
Peter: "No; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "Did I not choose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE is a devil?"

Jesus asked the twelve, "YOU aren't going to leave, ARE you?"
Jesus said, "I chose ALL TWELVE, and ONE has already left Me."

Tell me what else Jesus could have meant, but "any ONE of you COULD leave because one of you twelve is ALREADY A DEVIL!"

If Jesus wasn't saying "ANY of you COULD leave", then why did He say vs70, in response to Peter in vs69?

1. "Are YOU leaving?"
2. "No; You're the Messiah."
3. "I chose ALL TWELVE, and ONE is a devil."

See if anyone can disconnect #3 from #1; "ONE of you IS leaving". Tell me how Jesus didn't mean "the REST of you COULD POSSIBLY leave like the ONE."

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
But according to Ben, Judas was "saved". He points to Judas as proof that one can "unsave" themselves. However, you have correctly pointed out that Judas Iscariot was chosen to bear the fruit that he did. Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas Iscariot would be His betrayer, and chose Judas Iscariot specifically for that role, "that the scriptures would be fulfilled". Judas bore the fruit he was chosen to bear, and fulfilled that which had been predestined and fore-ordained.

This blows a hole as big as an eighteen-wheeler in the middle of Ben's false doctrines.
​

Speaking of "blowing holes"...

Does Jesus ordain anyone's SIN?

There's no way you can answer; if you say "YES", then you deny Christ's nature. "Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil; He appeared to TAKE AWAY SINS. In Him THERE IS NO SIN." 1Jn3:5

If you say "NO", then you admit that Judas was ordained for GOOD, but BECAME bad.

You can't answer, NBF --- nor any other "RT". The only thing you can do, is post something like "You're wrong"; or just ignore this post.

But you cannot answer it.

 

[beloved57]

In John6:70, Jesus said "I chose you, the twelve."

In Jn15:15, Jesus said: "I chose you (the Disciples) and appointed you to bear fruit, and your fruit remain."

So you all say that Jesus chose Judas to SINFUL fruit. You really believe that about Jesus' nature???

Now --- everyone please focus on what's happening at the end of John6.

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up the last day".
...many of His disciples said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
Jesus said, "Does this cause you to stumble? ...It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh profits nothing, the words
........that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe."
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him by the Father."
As a result of this many disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore.
Jesus said to the twelve: "YOU aren't going to go away TOO, are you?"
Peter said, "Lord ...you have words of eternal life; we believe ...and know You are the Holy One of God."
Jesus said, "Dd I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

To put that in more concise terms:
Many disciples were LEAVING.
Jesus said to the twelve: "YOU are not going to leave TOO, are you!"
Peter: "No; we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "Did I not choose ALL TWELVE of you, and ONE is a devil?"

Jesus asked the twelve, "YOU aren't going to leave, ARE you?"
Jesus said, "I chose ALL TWELVE, and ONE has already left Me."

Tell me what else Jesus could have meant, but "any ONE of you COULD leave because one of you twelve is ALREADY A DEVIL!"

If Jesus wasn't saying "ANY of you COULD leave", then why did He say vs70, in response to Peter in vs69?

1. "Are YOU leaving?"
2. "No; You're the Messiah."
3. "I chose ALL TWELVE, and ONE is a devil."

See if anyone can disconnect #3 from #1; "ONE of you IS leaving". Tell me how Jesus didn't mean "the REST of you COULD POSSIBLY leave like the ONE."

Jesus said Judas was a devil and scripture says he was thief jn 12:

John 12


1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
Jesus said Judas was a devil and scripture says he was thief jn 12:

John 12

1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. ​

What man who follows Jesus, did not used to be a sinner? What man who follows Jesus, forsakes the possibility of sinning again?

You have not answered the question. Can you disconnect "I chose all twelve", from "I chose you and ordained you to bear fruit"?

Did Jesus choose Judas to bear fruit that remained? There is no way that Jesus chose Judas to bear SINFUL fruit. That would have been impossible for Jesus to ever do.

We have two possibilities:

1. Judas NEVER believed, NEVER repented, was ALWAYS reprobate --- and Jesus chose a wanton unbelieving reprobate to be a DISCIPLE.

2. Judas BELIEVED, and was therefore chosen AS a believer, but struggled with sin and unbelief.

The fact that Jesus was asking "Are the REST of you twelve going to leave also, like the ONE is leaving? --- betrays Jesus' clear meaning that they COULD LEAVE. COULD disbelieve.

"I have prayed for you, that your faith not FAIL. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." Lk22:32 Did Jesus REALLY PRAY that Peter's faith not fail? Yes.

QUote:
prov 19:

21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand. ​

What does the rest of Proverbs19 say? Looks like a lot of choices.

"Cease listening, my son, to discipline; and you will stray from the words of knowledge." Prov19:27

"Stray from words of knowledge"? Whatever could he mean? Sounds a lot like Heb12:7-9, doesn't it?
"It is for discipline you endure; God deals with you like sons. What son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are WITHOUT discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are ILLEGITMATE and not sons. We had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, and live? ...See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him-who-warned-on-earth, much less shall WE escape who turn away from Him-who-warns-from-Heaven!" Heb12:7-9, 25

Back to the question --- was Judas "ordained to bear fruit that remained"?

 

[MamaZ]

Good try Ben but still Far from truth. For judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen. He was never saved. He was not chosen to be saved. He was chosen to fulfill scripture. Which he did.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Good try Ben but still Far from truth. For judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen. He was never saved. He was not chosen to be saved. He was chosen to fulfill scripture. Which he did.​

Nope --- this is one that must be answered.

1. Was Judas "chosen to bear fruit that remains"?
2. Was Judas chosen to bear BAD fruit (his sin was predestined)?
3. Was Judas chosen to bear GOOD fruit that remained?
4. Were the OTHER ELEVEN at the same risk of leaving, in Jesus' words?

#1 can only be "yes".
#2 can only be "no" --- God is not cause of sin. Jesus came to DESTROY sin, He CANNOT ordain it.
3. No way can "I chose ALL TWELVE" be divorced from "I chose and ordained you to bear fruit that REMAINS"
4. Jesus could not have meant anything ELSE

I don't see any way out for "predestinationists", "MamaZ". Either Judas was ordained to SIN (impossible), or he was not ordained at all (impossible --- "I chose YOU TWELVE") --- or he was ordained for GOOD and FELL.

There is no way that "Reformed THeology" can answer this...

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Good try Ben but still Far from truth. For judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen. He was never saved. He was not chosen to be saved. He was chosen to fulfill scripture. Which he did.​

Nope --- this is one that must be answered.

No, yourself, Ben. MamaZ is correct.

1. Was Judas "chosen to bear fruit that remains"?

Yes, indeed. Your problem is that you think that there was only one fruit.

2. Was Judas chosen to bear BAD fruit (his sin was predestined)?

His sin was prophesied, therefore it was pre-ordained. Prophecy deals with certainty, not chance. It was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed. So it is clear that this sin was ordained to happen, prophesied to happen, and Jesus chose Judas, knowing that it was Judas who would betray Him. Jesus did not choose Judas "in the hope" that Judas would not betray Him. It was a deliberate choice, made with full knowledge of what would certainly happen, with full knowledge of that certainty.

So the answer to #2 is an unequivocal "YES"

3. Was Judas chosen to bear GOOD fruit that remained?

Given the answer to # 2, NO. Judas was chosen to bear BAD FRUIT, which remained. Can you deny that Judas played an integral part in the events leading up to the Crucifixion? Can you deny that the Crucifixion was fore-ordained to happen, given all the prophecy in the OT about it? Was the crucifixion predestined? Scripture says "YES".

4. Were the OTHER ELEVEN at the same risk of leaving, in Jesus' words?

In reality, this has nothing to do with Judas directly. But, the answer to the question is, while there was the potentiality of the other eleven leaving, the actuality was that they didn't, and Jesus knew they wouldn't. He asked them the question, not because He didn't know, or needed to know, but to elicit from them an affirmation of faith in Him.

#1 can only be "yes".
#2 can only be "no" --- God is not cause of sin. Jesus came to DESTROY sin, He CANNOT ordain it.
3. No way can "I chose ALL TWELVE" be divorced from "I chose and ordained you to bear fruit that REMAINS"
4. Jesus could not have meant anything ELSE

Your canned answers show just how close-minded you are, and how much you refuse to see. Your questions are slanted and do not correctly state the problem.

I don't see any way out for "predestinationists", "MamaZ". Either Judas was ordained to SIN (impossible), or he was not ordained at all (impossible --- "I chose YOU TWELVE") --- or he was ordained for GOOD and FELL.

There is no way that "Reformed THeology" can answer this...

Reformed Theology answers it just fine, Ben, The problem here is that you refuse to accept any answer that does not agree with your already-decided-on outcome, which is flawed. You ask, nay demand, answers to questions that you have no intention of ever considering those answers as anything other than fodder for you to shoot at. You refuse to be corrected about anything. You refuse to accept that you could have missed the Truth on anything. This is amply demonstrated by the record of posts and interactions with you going back literally years, and can be confirmed by any number of other posters here.

Bottom line, it is your theology that leaves questions unanswered, or answers them wrongly.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, yourself, Ben. MamaZ is correct.



Yes, indeed. Your problem is that you think that there was only one fruit.



His sin was prophesied, therefore it was pre-ordained. Prophecy deals with certainty, not chance. It was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed. So it is clear that this sin was ordained to happen, prophesied to happen, and Jesus chose Judas, knowing that it was Judas who would betray Him. Jesus did not choose Judas "in the hope" that Judas would not betray Him. It was a deliberate choice, made with full knowledge of what would certainly happen, with full knowledge of that certainty.

So the answer to #2 is an unequivocal "YES"



Given the answer to # 2, NO. Judas was chosen to bear BAD FRUIT, which remained. Can you deny that Judas played an integral part in the events leading up to the Crucifixion? Can you deny that the Crucifixion was fore-ordained to happen, given all the prophecy in the OT about it? Was the crucifixion predestined? Scripture says "YES".



In reality, this has nothing to do with Judas directly. But, the answer to the question is, while there was the potentiality of the other eleven leaving, the actuality was that they didn't, and Jesus knew they wouldn't. He asked them the question, not because He didn't know, or needed to know, but to elicit from them an affirmation of faith in Him.



Your canned answers show just how close-minded you are, and how much you refuse to see. Your questions are slanted and do not correctly state the problem.



Reformed Theology answers it just fine, Ben, The problem here is that you refuse to accept any answer that does not agree with your already-decided-on outcome, which is flawed. You ask, nay demand, answers to questions that you have no intention of ever considering those answers as anything other than fodder for you to shoot at. You refuse to be corrected about anything. You refuse to accept that you could have missed the Truth on anything. This is amply demonstrated by the record of posts and interactions with you going back literally years, and can be confirmed by any number of other posters here.

Bottom line, it is your theology that leaves questions unanswered, or answers them wrongly.

James 1:13-18
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Sin is not simply rebellion against God; rather, it is the refusal of God's grace, which aims to bring the sinner from death into life, from bad news into good news. It would be absurd to think that God desires the ugliness of death or the self-destructiveness of sin God wants to rescue us from the terrible results of sin.

 

[nobdysfool]

James 1:13-18
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Sin is not simply rebellion against God; rather, it is the refusal of God's grace, which aims to bring the sinner from death into life, from bad news into good news. It would be absurd to think that God desires the ugliness of death or the self-destructiveness of sin God wants to rescue us from the terrible results of sin.

None of which addresses the clear fact that Judas' sin was predestined and pre-ordained, prophesied, and therefore certain. Jesus chose Judas knowing that Judas would betray Him, not in the hope that He could prevent Judas from doing so.

Judas played a part in the events leading up to the Crucifixion, which was also fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, prophesied to take place, and therefore as certain to happen as the rising and setting of the sun.

Your weak and feeble attempt to dodge these clear facts shows that you deny God's Sovereignty over all things, and all events, and that you view God as merely reactive to Man, making Man the real power in control of all that happens.

 

[chestertonrules]

None of which addresses the clear fact that Judas' sin was predestined and pre-ordained, prophesied, and therefore certain. Jesus chose Judas knowing that Judas would betray Him, not in the hope that He could prevent Judas from doing so.

Judas played a part in the events leading up to the Crucifixion, which was also fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, prophesied to take place, and therefore as certain to happen as the rising and setting of the sun.

Your weak and feeble attempt to dodge these clear facts shows that you deny God's Sovereignty over all things, and all events, and that you view God as merely reactive to Man, making Man the real power in control of all that happens.

It appears that you believe that God is the author of sin.

Do I misunderstand you?

 

[nobdysfool]

It appears that you believe that God is the author of sin.

Do I misunderstand you?

You have misunderstood me from the beginning. And, you regularly engage in inflammatory and offensive terminology. I will not go any further with such garbage until you define exactly what you mean by that phrase, "author of sin".

 

[chestertonrules]

You have misunderstood me from the beginning. And, you regularly engage in inflammatory and offensive terminology. I will not go any further with such garbage until you define exactly what you mean by that phrase, "author of sin".

You wrote:

the clear fact that Judas' sin was predestined and pre-ordained

I assume you mean that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.

This is contrary to biblical teaching.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

 

[nobdysfool]

You wrote:





I assume you mean that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.

This is contrary to biblical teaching.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

You're avoiding my question. Define "author of sin", as you mean it.