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nikeascher

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I am not christian for the reason that i am just not convinced.
Why should i believe in this religion that i am supposed to invest so much time in when i dont have any real concrete evidence that it is even correct? I am honestly asking this. I want a reason to believe.
Also as a sort of side topic, i want these points addressed please if you feel like it.

  • Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is logically preferable to any other.
  • In the absence of morality, existence has no higher meaning or goal.
  • There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
  • Even if there exists a higher ruler or creator, mankind has no moral obligation to worship them.
 

TexasSky

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Nikescher,

I understand why you have the impression that Christianity is about morals, but the fact is, it is not about morality. It is about a relationship with a God who loves you.

You said that even if God exists, mankind is not obligated to worship Him. That is true. God does exist, and He gave you the ability to refuse His love.

Let's work with that assumption that He does exist. That He did create the universe. That He is the Almighty King of Kings, Lord of all Lords.

That would make Him the final authority. The final rule maker. The final judge. The jury. He gave us rules, which are designed to help us. People like to pretend otherwise, but a careful look at them shows that the basis of the laws were to help man, not hurt him. The validity of the "positives" of those rules is seen in the world time and time again, for even societies that do not worship God agree these rules (do not kill, do not steal, be faithful to your loved one, don't give false testimony, etc.) are necessary for a society to survive.

So that is a given.

Now, look beyond that.

Whether you think that God's holiness is so great that it literally destroys unholiness in its presence in the way that the Sun will destroy ice that is brought too near to it, not with an intent to harm, but because of the very nature of the substances, the way light will "scatter" darkness or you think that God simply chooses not to tolerate unholiness, this final authority has said that everyone who has lived on this earth since Adam, except Christ, has earned the judgement of death. They've violated laws with the penalty of permanent separation of God. They will, on judgement day, be judged "according to their works." And every one of them will fail. They will all have done something that harmed another or harmed themselves. They will all have sinned.

God, knowing this, provided a royal pardon. He gave that pardon to Christ, and said, "Give it freely to people." That was it. There was no requirement, "If they accept your pardon they have to change their ways forever, pay a fine, go to some work colony for a few thousand years." It was simple. "If you accept this pardon, the punishment that Christ took at Calvary will be considered your "time served."

All you have to do is accept that pardon.

Okay - - -

Beyond that.

Why follow Christ?

Why not follow Christ?
What, exactly, did Christ teach that you object to?

Christ taught, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
"Do good to them that hurt you."
"Love your enemy."
"Feed the hungry, clothe the poor, heal the sick, care for the widows and orphans."
"Judge not, lest you be judged, and remember, that you will be judged with the same measure that you judge others."
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
(Paraphasing) "Don't throw stones at those who failed God, unless you have never failed God."

He taught that the two greatest commandments in the world were to Love God, and to love one another.

He taught forgiveness.

He taught patience.

He taught that the law should serve man, not men the law.

So, why would anyone dislike that message? Why would someone reject that leadership?

As to "evidence."

It is impossible to explain that to a non believer. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for" means, you have to reach out to Christ in faith, to find Christ. You have to accept that even though you don't get it with your senses, you want to know Him.

The only real way to know if a chair will hold your weight is to sit in the chair. All the scientific tests that say it will or it won't are really useless if you never sit in the chair.

The only way to find Christ, is to look for Christ. To reach out and say, "I want to know you, Lord."

And when you do that, He will reveal Himself.
 
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christianmomof3

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I am not christian for the reason that i am just not convinced.
Why should i believe in this religion that i am supposed to invest so much time in when i dont have any real concrete evidence that it is even correct? I am honestly asking this. I want a reason to believe.
Also as a sort of side topic, i want these points addressed please if you feel like it.

  • Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is logically preferable to any other.
  • In the absence of morality, existence has no higher meaning or goal.
  • There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
  • Even if there exists a higher ruler or creator, mankind has no moral obligation to worship them.
I do not suggest believing in a religion.
I believe in God because He is real and I know Him.
I do not worship God out of any obligation, but because He loves me and I love Him and He is Love and He is so wonderful that knowing Him, I cannot do anything other than worship Him and praise Him.
 
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nikeascher

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I appreciate your advice, but I think my OP may have mislead you or strayed from my original intentions. What I really want to know is; how do I know there is a god? What evidence do I have to believe in him? And if there is a god, then why doesn't he make himself known in an obvious way that would lead all to salvation? Doesn't he want all to be good and to not sin? (sorry for the awkward wording of that last one)
 
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christianmomof3

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I appreciate your advice, but I think my OP may have mislead you or strayed from my original intentions. What I really want to know is; how do I know there is a god? What evidence do I have to believe in him? And if there is a god, then why doesn't he make himself known in an obvious way that would lead all to salvation? Doesn't he want all to be good and to not sin? (sorry for the awkward wording of that last one)
God's goal is not to have us all be good and not sin.
God's goal is to have a group of people who are filled with Him as their life and who are built up together in His life to express and represent Him.
To know Him, you need to talk to Him. Talk to Him out loud. Turn to Him sincerely and call upon His name. Say "Lord Jesus, if you are real, please reveal yourself to me that I can know you." or something like that.
Why doesn't He make Himself known in an obvious way?
I don't know. Perhaps He is obvious and we don't pay attention to Him.
Before I knew Him I thought that all Christians were brainwashed idiots. I thought that man created the concept of God rather than God creating man. I was not seeking to know Him or to know that He existed because I just thought that He did not exist except for in people's imaginations.
Then a co-worker of mine who had prayed for me for over 3 years shared Christ with me. She shared a little gospel tract with me and I had lots of questions. She could not answer them all. She asked her husband to join us and he told me to just try it. So, I read and prayed the prayer in there. I did not really believe it or so I thought. But I was a bit concerned because I was Jewish (although I no longer practiced the religion because I thought it was hypocritical) and I felt that I would be betraying my people if I prayed to Jesus. And I did it anyway. And I found out that He is God and He is real.
So my advice is to just try it. If you seek the Lord, you will find Him.
:prayer:I pray that you will seek and find Him.:prayer:
 
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Light hearted

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I spent years with the same problem of believing. I had to see to believe. I think more mechanically, not emotional. Sad thing is, to believe in a spirit, you have to believe in something you can not see. Grrrrr, very frustrating.

Finally I found the answer for the mechanically minded person. God is not only SPIRIT he is a CREATOR. He made the earth he made everything on it, he decided on the actual size of it, he designed a way for it to rain, he created ice, he created fire, I could go on and on but I hope your mind has engaged in forward now and you are looking around and seeing for the first time all the complexities of earth.

Everybody tries to sell the idea of coming to Jesus with the guilt of sin and hell. It never worked for me, selling me on a negative foundation, pfueeee. I've had better luck trying to get people to stop and smell the flowers so to speak.

More thought. It is written that God made man to be the caretaker of earth. Image the issues we would have if we were 2 or 3 feet shorter, or 2 or 3 feet taller. We would be either overgrown by the vegitation or we would have such a need for lumber and wood products we would run out.

Ever notice how many of the natural resouces were distributed around the world. Oil, forests, gold, silver, diamonds, coal, it is almost as if the world was designed that each governing body could have an equal opportunity in the world's economy.

Consider how the highest intellegence was given to the body that also has the hands and torso to put the intellegence to use. If we all came from some random bog bang how did the intelegence end up in man. This brain would be a total waste in any other animal.

Do really believe a random Big Bang with no authoritve figure could create all this.

I've got a ton of examples, my point is, I like to create things, my shop is my life. Can you imagine how great it was to realize God also creates things. NOW I CAN BELIEVE!!!!!!

Next up, read the Bible, front cover to the back cover, at least read the New Testament, and understand the pathetic human character. Now I can understand the need for a savior.

Prayed and repenting I say thank God for the Holy Spirit.
 
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To add to the above posts, I have had many of the same questions you did, and while I am only relatively new to Christianity and belief in God, I have found quite a few things that were shown to me by God to help me grow in Him.

One of the first and most significant ideas that came to me while thinking about the existence of God (and going along the same lines of the Creator as Light heated) was the idea of interior decoration, decoration in general, or landscaping. I have worked landscaping jobs as well as construction jobs, and always have been amazed by the differences that are within us all. Some people like a tree over here, some a garden over there. Some people would love a window here, or a nice stone walkway to the street on that side of the house, winding and curving in this specific way. I have heard too many times words along the lines of "No, I didn't want it there" or "I think it'll look better this way, lets try this idea out and see how it looks."

Yet never once have I heard anything along the lines of "That tree/flower/rock/bird is out of place" in a natural setting, such as a protected national/state forest. Never once have I heard "That waterfall should have never been carved into that specific spot, but should rather have come out over there." With that specific example, look at Niagara Falls, one of the "Wonders of the World." Never once have I heard that the falls are one of the worst designs ever made, or they could have been shaped/carved out of rock better if it had worked this way instead of that way.

Look at the chemistry of water also. I am remembering this from a very long time ago in intro-chem in high school, so I cannot even begin to give you the chemical facts of why this takes place, but even so, I don't think they would help totally explain the facts. Take any chemical composition or element (besides H2O), and put a solid form of it in a liquid form of the same element/composition. In every single case, the solid form would sink to the bottom. Water, however, is entirely different. Water, when frozen into a solid state of matter, creates a crystal matrix that creates enough pockets of air within the solid form, that it floats in its own liquid state.
Now, Imagine if this were not the case, and water acted like every other chemical element/composition out there, and its solid form sank in its liquid form. When lakes and ponds froze in winter, the ice would sink, displacing water from the bottom, keeping the liquid state on the top. This water would continually freeze into ice, and sink. Eventually, there would be no pond, there would be no water, except for the frozen solid forms of this water that had sunk and built up within the beds of the lakes/ponds. Now, imagine what problems this would cause for animals, plants and other creatures within these lakes/ponds. Without the ice floating on top of the water, creating a barrier between the air and the water and allowing these creatures to live, if instead the ice sank and displaced the water, building up from the bottom, these creatures would have to die, or "evolve" pretty fast in order to get out of the water, and survive on land in the frigid temperatures that were causing the water to freeze in the first place. Eventually, half the world would be out of fish. The fact that this does not happen, and water, the most abundant resource and chemical composition on our planet, floats in solid form instead of sinks, allows for life to continue to thrive and survive.

I don't think that could have come out of chance. Both the "external, natural" "order and design" of things outside, in nature, as they are naturally, without the help of man, as well as the incredible difference in one of our most needed and most significant chemical resources that allows us to survive and not perish through problems that would most likely eventually come about, are, to me, evidences of God, a Divine Creator. I cannot see either of these happening merely by chance.

We do not question the marvelousness of many natural occurrences, lightening, rain, wind, clouds, storms, even natural disasters. These things are all part of a cycle of renewal, growth, birth and death. The natural course of things within our world is just too complete, too flawless to have happened merely by chance. If I knew any more about sciences (I did not graduate as a science major), I could most likely look at so much more as wonders of a creator that had a plan, that was able to keep things so balanced throughout the world in such a way that the Earth would continue to thrive for millions of years without fear of disappearing, burning out, or collapsing from a miscalculation between everything.

You asked for signs from God stating his presence, and I personally believe that there are signs from Him all around us, we are just too busy in life to be able to recognize them. Even our own human intellect is a natural wonder of God, as was stated before.

I know this was probably not the most eloquent or Christian-based responses out there, but it is what helped me look at not only the world, but also the existence of God, a Divine Creator, in a whole new light, and one that has opened my eyes.

I hope this helps, if you need me to clarify or explain anything, I'll be happy to, just let me know.
 
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heymikey80

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I am not christian for the reason that i am just not convinced.
Why should i believe in this religion that i am supposed to invest so much time in when i dont have any real concrete evidence that it is even correct? I am honestly asking this. I want a reason to believe.
Also as a sort of side topic, i want these points addressed please if you feel like it.

  • Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is logically preferable to any other.
  • In the absence of morality, existence has no higher meaning or goal.
  • There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
  • Even if there exists a higher ruler or creator, mankind has no moral obligation to worship them.
Real morality does exist, every bit as much as the objective speed limit in the universe. However, 200 years ago, no one was proposing that speed limit. What's not sought is unlikely to be found.

Science has attacked "subjective" thinking, with some belief that when a topic involves persons -- subjects -- it must not be real. But that's assuredly not the case. Ethics always involves this personalized motive, a thing called "intent". Modern ethics sought to strip that away. Of course when it did so it found nothing left, and declared ethics "unreal".

Information about the science of morality can be found throughout among the writings of thinkers in Europe under Christian influence and even before, but certainly from the 300's right up to the Enlightenment period. Then it suffers a marked decline.

Morality is a very different thing than what modern objective science seeks. It is inherently not a directly-observed phenomenon. But then, neither is an electron. Both require unusual research tools.

For a couple of good reads about this problem:
Alasdair MacIntyre, "After Virtue"
C.S. Lewis, "The Abolition of Man"
I appreciate your advice, but I think my OP may have mislead you or strayed from my original intentions. What I really want to know is; how do I know there is a god?
How do you -- in particular -- know that an electron exists?

And how does anyone know whether a person exists or not? According to evolutionary scientists this is impossible for science to say (their argument against Intelligent Design said so explicitly).

Do you exist? As a person? Hm. If you exist, and science can't comment on your personal existence, then there's more to the world than what science can deal with.
What evidence do I have to believe in him?
2000 years ago someone unmistakably died, and three days later got up and started working with his disciples again. This event encircled the globe and founded organizations linked by this one common thread -- teaching people to rely on this guy who knows how to defeat death.
And if there is a god, then why doesn't he make himself known in an obvious way that would lead all to salvation? Doesn't he want all to be good and to not sin? (sorry for the awkward wording of that last one)
That sounds pretty obvious. Look, miracles and signs can be faked. People do it all the time. What's "unmistakable" about that? But that crazy little organization, the church, it doesn't have a great reason for existing all these 2000 years. Not unless there's something real in what it's saying.
 
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halfbuiltrobot

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I would highly recommend reading a book called Evidence for truth | Science. By Dr E. K. Victor pearce.

He is a Christian Author, Archaeologist & scientist who teaches at top Universities here in the UK.
He compares the bible with scientific findings and explains in true scientific terms how God created the world and gives hard evidence that discredits silly lies like Evolution. It also deals with big issues like the flood and again gives accounts from the bible and prove his theories with modern science.

What to many people in this world do, is follow the flock if it is written in a book that we evolved then you take it for fact right? well really you shouldn't! I work as a designer for a book publishers and see first hand the errors and miss information that is printed and accepted, people with little knowledge are left to preach these things they know nothing about in out text books.

A lot of the time such things are left in out books even when proved incorrect because the truth is harder to swallow.

Evolution is peddled not by true scientist but people that think they know. Dr E. K. Pearce is a trained Scientist with a list of tittles as long as my arm and is fully Qualified to teach his theories.

When I was struggling a few years back I read this book which totally wiped out all my fears and has made me so much stronger.
 
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