Where's Aristotle?

[snoochface]

Okay Pete. You've convinced me. There is no hell. Would it make you happy to hear me say that? Do you get something from criticizing people's beliefs? Does it make you feel good?

 

[keith99]

My point is, the idea of hell is ridiculous. And for crying out loud, Dante's Inferno (aka the Divine COMEDY) is NOT scripture, even a filthy atheist like myself knows that.

Also didn't the pope nix limbo (or was that another imaginary realm)? The reason you see it as a silly question is because the very idea of people being sent to different planes upon death is absurd.

Inferno is no more the Divine Comedy than The Two Towers is Tolkeins Ring Trilogy. ANd while not scripture the setting(s) do reflect the doctrine of the Catholic Church of the time.

 

[Verv]

This should probably be in the Apologetics section.

Many Chrisitians believe that non-believers go to hell. Aristotle was born before Christ and was therefore a non-believer. Is one of the fathers of western ethical philosophy (and one of the greatest influences on so-called Christian values) in hell? If not, why not, since God's law is immutable?

One of the reasons why he is a huge influence on Christian values is his belief in God/the Gods and many of the Aristotleans later said that philosophy, which was then defined as love of wisdom, becomes the practice of love of God. This notion is rather interesting.

It is said,

[bible]Luke 12:48[/bible]

He will be punished according to the sins that was committed by him but not on any level of those who consciously reject Christianity.

That is why it is imperative you take a more objective look at Christianity before dismissing it.

Hebrews 11 says that Abraham, and all the other examples used in that chapter who were born before Christ, were saved by their faith. If Aristotle had faith, he's in heaven. But how are any of us to know one way or the other?

I just read the chapter -- i tis pretty good and clear. Good post:

[bible]Hebrews 11:1-6[/bible]

 

[peter22]

Okay Pete. You've convinced me. There is no hell. Would it make you happy to hear me say that? Do you get something from criticizing people's beliefs? Does it make you feel good?

More that I can't believe an intelligent person would truly believe in that. *shrug* And before you get too irate, it's often the obnoxious religionists that ram the threat of eternal damnation down people's throats which provoke reactions such as mine.

 

[Verv]

More that I can't believe an intelligent person would truly believe in that. *shrug* And before you get too irate, it's often the obnoxious religionists that ram the threat of eternal damnation down people's throats which provoke reactions such as mine.

Intelligent people would never believe that a soul may be condemned to hell if it has led an impure life?

Why?

Do you know what hell is? If you do, please let us all know as Christians have been in grave disagreement about it since the advent of Theology. We could use whatever help you can provide in offering descriptions thereof.

 

[Baggins]

Intelligent people would never believe that a soul may be condemned to hell if it has led an impure life?

Why?

Because what ever evil a person carried out in life eternal torture to punish it is worse.

So however evil someone was in life god is more evil because he commits a more evil act.

There is nothing that can be more evil than torturing a person for eternity.

That is why no intelligent person, as you have it, believes in hell.

Because it makes god more evil than the worst human imaginable

 

[peter22]

Intelligent people would never believe that a soul may be condemned to hell if it has led an impure life?

Why?

Do you know what hell is? If you do, please let us all know as Christians have been in grave disagreement about it since the advent of Theology. We could use whatever help you can provide in offering descriptions thereof.

jmvervill

Intelligent people would never believe that a soul may be condemned to hell if it has led an impure life?

Impure how?

Do you know what hell is? If you do, please let us all know as Christians have been in grave disagreement about it since the advent of Theology. We could use whatever help you can provide in offering descriptions thereof.

I can provide a rough outline. It is an imaginary place that religious organisations use to bully normal people into toeing the party line. It's not dissimilar to Stalin's terror campaigns, though less subtle.

 

[peter22]

Intelligent people would never believe that a soul may be condemned to hell if it has led an impure life?

Meaningfully define 'impure' to me. Note that I'm not a Christian.

Do you know what hell is? If you do, please let us all know as Christians have been in grave disagreement about it since the advent of Theology. We could use whatever help you can provide in offering descriptions thereof.

Hell is an imaginary place used by organised religions to scare ordinary folk into toeing the party line, a little like Stalin's terror campaigns, though less subtle.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Aristotle didn't have faith in your god, he had faith in the Greek pantheon, if anyone.

His writing suggest he didn't. He certainly seemed to acknowledge the existence of the Logos- as close as I think you can come to understanding God without judeo-christianity.

 

[Crazy Liz]

My point is, the idea of hell is ridiculous. And for crying out loud, Dante's Inferno (aka the Divine COMEDY) is NOT scripture, even a filthy atheist like myself knows that.

Also didn't the pope nix limbo (or was that another imaginary realm)? The reason you see it as a silly question is because the very idea of people being sent to different planes upon death is absurd.

Dante is not scripture, but Dante was as free to speculate on people's eternal fate as any other Christian. His guess is as good as that of any of the posters here.

 

[Meshavrischika]

Dante is not scripture, but Dante was as free to speculate on people's eternal fate as any other Christian. His guess is as good as that of any of the posters here.

if that's so, then I say Aristotle is like Elvis... living in hiding. lol

 

[Crazy Liz]

Hebrews 11 says that Abraham, and all the other examples used in that chapter who were born before Christ, were saved by their faith. If Aristotle had faith, he's in heaven. But how are any of us to know one way or the other?

Aristotle didn't have faith in your god, he had faith in the Greek pantheon, if anyone.

Aristotle deduced one god from creation and his own mind.

Aquinas and many other Doctors of the Church thought he was largely correct.

What could we logically deduce from that?

Dante consigned him to Inferno, rather than Paradiso, because of not being baptized, not because of his beliefs.

 

[Meshavrischika]

Aristotle deduced one god from creation and his own mind.

Aquinas and many other Doctors of the Church thought he was largely correct.

What could we logically deduce from that?

Dante consigned him to Inferno, rather than Paradiso, because of not being baptized, not because of his beliefs.

logically? that since baptism only was important post crucifixion that his lack of baptism is moot. The Christian baptism is an identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Jewish baptism was an outward sign of repentance (aristotle was not a Jew and was not under Jewish law... i.e. this does not apply to him either). SO... in my mind (this is just supposition and in no way reflects me saying YES he is or NO he is not) belief in one God as evidenced in nature would indicate to me that he, like Abraham, was saved by his faith. But that's just me.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Do you think a philosophical deduction of one god is functionally equivalent to Abraham's faith?

To what degree does faith consist in holding correct opinions?

 

[snoochface]

It begs the question, "faith in what?"

Abraham's faith was in the God of the Bible. He knew him, he trusted him, he screwed up a lot but ultimately he believed and was rewarded for it.

I don't know that simply believing there is a God is enough. I certainly don't think it's on the same level as the faith and knowledge in God that Abraham, Moses, Noah, et. al. had.

 

[Meshavrischika]

Do you think a philosophical deduction of one god is functionally equivalent to Abraham's faith?

To what degree does faith consist in holding correct opinions?

I can only make assumptions. As each man is allotted his own measure of faith, I'd have to assume that included Aristotle, you and even me. The only difference I can see is that we are told Abraham was visited by God (God came and said "hey, this is me"). We do not know one way or the other with Aristotle.

As for faith being somehow related to being correct? Faith and correct don't function on the same level of reference. One is the evidence of things unseen. Correct implies the ability to discern (hence seen). But that's just my take.

 

[snoochface]

It begs the question, "faith in what?"

Abraham's faith was in the God of the Bible. He knew him, he trusted him, he screwed up a lot but ultimately he believed and was rewarded for it.

I don't know that simply believing there is a God is enough. I certainly don't think it's on the same level as the faith and knowledge in God that Abraham, Moses, Noah, et. al. had.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I can only make assumptions. As each man is allotted his own measure of faith, I'd have to assume that included Aristotle, you and even me. The only difference I can see is that we are told Abraham was visited by God (God came and said "hey, this is me"). We do not know one way or the other with Aristotle.

With all the writing he did, it would surprise me if he had such an epiphany, believed it, and never wrote about it or taught about it, so as to leave no record of it. In fact, based on Aristotle's writing about god, I don't think Aristotle believed his god could communicate with humans.

As for faith being somehow related to being correct? Faith and correct don't function on the same level of reference. One is the evidence of things unseen. Correct implies the ability to discern (hence seen). But that's just my take.

You may be right. But I've seen plenty of posts by Christians indicating in very urgent terms that one's eternal salvation is endangered by incorrect theological opinions. Would you disagree with this?

 

[Crazy Liz]

It begs the question, "faith in what?"

Abraham's faith was in the God of the Bible. He knew him, he trusted him, he screwed up a lot but ultimately he believed and was rewarded for it.

I don't know that simply believing there is a God is enough. I certainly don't think it's on the same level as the faith and knowledge in God that Abraham, Moses, Noah, et. al. had.

Does that mean anyone before Christ who did not receive a personal visitation like these individuals is SOL?

 

[Meshavrischika]

With all the writing he did, it would surprise me if he had such an epiphany, believed it, and never wrote about it or taught about it, so as to leave no record of it. In fact, based on Aristotle's writing about god, I don't think Aristotle believed his god could communicate with humans.

Hey. You asked me to suppose. I did.

You may be right. But I've seen plenty of posts by Christians indicating in very urgent terms that one's eternal salvation is endangered by incorrect theological opinions. Would you disagree with this?

If your last statement is true we're all going to hell. This is why I don't like Christians who preach "this is the ONLY truth and the ONLY way and the ONLY life". They're the ones who also preach "I" can show you the way (which is utterly false).