you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[Rick Otto]

We are to make the prayers of The Church our own when we pray them.

Failing to do that is a personal failure.

Do you desire us to stop praying The Lords prayer? Or perhaps you believe we should say it less often?

What's the measure for what is correct?

Did our Lord not say "When you pray, say..."?

Forgive me...

Of course He did, but He didn't say "When you pray, repeat this exactly..."
What I desire is that in "making the prayers of The Church your own", you use your own words, as a conscientious act of sincerety to make the same petitions and offerings that the prayers of The Church do.

The measure for what is correct is found in the principles revealed in scripture. You have to be able to read & understand the measure before applying it to your own petitions & offerings. It isn't that difficult, considering The Holy Spirit is willing to help & you have lots of Christian help, not any of it error free, but the ones who claim to be that, have to go to great lengths to rationalize their diversity and gloss over doctrinal disunity in their own ranks.
Perfectionism is the point where healthy concern becomes counterproductive worry.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Of course He did, but He didn't say "When you pray, repeat this exactly..."
What I desire is that in "making the prayers of The Church your own", you use your own words, as a conscientious act of sincerety to make the same petitions and offerings that the prayers of The Church do.

The measure for what is correct is found in the principles revealed in scripture. You have to be able to read & understand the measure before applying it to your own petitions & offerings. It isn't that difficult, considering The Holy Spirit is willing to help & you have lots of Christian help, not any of it error free, but the ones who claim to be that, have to go to great lengths to rationalize their diversity and gloss over doctrinal disunity in their own ranks.
Perfectionism is the point where healthy concern becomes counterproductive worry.

You do realize that Christ participated in Jewish litugical worship in the Temple? Even upon the cross he was repeating the Psalms.

We make the psalms our own when we sing and chant them. They become part of us. It's how we teach and learn.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Without repeating the prayers, how will our children learn them?

Forgive me...

 

[Rick Otto]

How could he have legitimized the NT that didn't exist in his life-time?

He legitimized the NT as it unfolded, explaining how Jesus was The Christ, using OT scripture that gave all that prophecey that Jesus fulfilled.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I really wish we would stop reading the scriptures out load... your just repeating them and they become vain.

Do you see how silly that sounds?

Forgive me...

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=OrthodoxyUSA;You do realize that Christ participated in Jewish litugical worship in the Temple?

He was under the law, modeling perfect obedience. We are under grace.
Holo is The Grace Guy. He explains Grace like nobody else here.

Even upon the cross he was repeating the Psalms.

Scripture!

We make the psalms our own when we sing and chant them. They become part of us. It's how we teach and learn.

Teaching & learning are not vain per se.

 

[Rick Otto]

Without repeating the prayers, how will our children learn them?

Forgive me...

Teaching is good.
Children need it.
Adults should posess self-motivation to study & learn.
And that happens naturaly to a limited extent, just by casual bible reading. I used to listen to &/or read OT stories for entertainment value as a kid.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

He was under the law, modeling perfect obedience.

Incorrect. He is the author of the law. He was never "under" it.

It is his model that I follow.

Mat 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you recognize that? Search the Psalms.


Forgive me...

 

[Rick Otto]

I really wish we would stop reading the scriptures out load... your just repeating them and they become vain.

Do you see how silly that sounds?

Forgive me...

Absolutely.
Reading scripture (even repetitiously) & praying are apples & oranges tho. Let's stick to just talking about repetitious prayer that is criticized in the scripture.
BTW, what would be an example of the kind of repetitious prayer the scripture criticizes, from your point of view?
Stuttering is forbidden?

 

[Philothei]

Was Luther silly for keeping the Latin Mass?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Teaching is good.
Children need it.
Adults should posess self-motivation to study & learn.
And that happens naturaly to a limited extent, just by casual bible reading. I used to listen to &/or read OT stories for entertainment value as a kid.

And what of the past?

Those who could not read? Nor had access to books.

Forgive me...

 

[sunlover1]

Absolutely.
Reading scripture (even repetitiously) & praying are apples & oranges tho. Let's stick to just talking about repetitious prayer that is criticized in the scripture.
BTW, what would be an example of the kind of repetitious prayer the scripture criticizes, from your point of view?
Stuttering is forbidden?

Context helps.
Here's how some Greek Scholars saw it:

7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.
8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!

I think it's the repeating again and again that's the
'vain' part.
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7022569#_ftnref1

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=OrthodoxyUSA; Incorrect. He is the author of the law. He was never "under" it.

Don't try & quibble a technicality. He placed Himself as much under the law as He placed Himself under His Father, and as much as He incarnated.

Galatians, 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2: But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3: Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4: But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ​

It is his model that I follow.

​

I'll be the judge of that.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you recognize that? Search the Psalms.

heck yeah, old hat. I learned that from RC's in grade school.

 

[Philothei]

Context helps.
Here's how some Greek Scholars saw it:

7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.
8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!

I think it's the repeating again and again that's the
'vain' part.
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7022569#_ftnref1

Where is the context ... not even who is this greek scholar...???

Vain repetition without thinking is just that... You are right... But the responsibility falls on one's head about not repeating in vain but praying.. Also praying on your own how does this safeguards .... vain talking without thinking?

 

[jckstraw72]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jckstraw72
i guess you can show me where he says to be of one mind only on select things? where does he mention the things that its ok to be at variance about?

he doesn't have to.

then how do you know which doctrines its ok to change and which it isnt?

Quote:
why is it an impossibility? anyone in Paul's congregations who simply accepted what he taught would then have unity. its quite possible.
even within your "unified" EO, you have differences of opinion.

such as?

Quote:

look, on one hand you admit that liturgical worship happened in the Temple, and on the other you say its just a supposition. seriously, make up your mind.
It's a supposition that all the christians who went to the temple worshiped liturgically, and only so.

well since the worship in teh Temple was liturgical .... do you have any evidence to think otherwise?

you STILL haven't done anything to convince me that heaven worship will be liturgical, for one. And the Jewish liturgy encompassed the sacrifices, that are no longer in place. I am not a Jew. The Jewish rituals of sacrifice are 1) complete, fulfilled, with Christ's one time sacrifice and 2) inapplicable to a non Jew.

Hebrews 8 tells us that Jewish liturgy was a shadow of heavenly worship. shadows have the same form as the reality. thus the form of heavenly worship is liturgy. this is also seen in Isaiah and Revelation, and probably other places. Additionally, all of Christian history bears witness to this understanding. there is not a single piece of evidence that says otherwise.

Quote:
worshiping God.
how?

liturgically, just as the angels do. we are all one united Church after all.

 

[Rick Otto]

Was Luther silly for keeping the Latin Mass?

I think he was, yes.

 

[Rick Otto]

Where is the context ... not even who is this greek scholar...???

Vain repetition without thinking is just that... You are right... But the responsibility falls on one's head about not repeating in vain but praying.. Also praying on your own how does this safeguards .... vain talking without thinking?

The vanity isn't absense of thought, rather in thinking that repetition is effective in getting prayer answered!

 

[jckstraw72]

The vanity isn't absense of thought, rather in thinking that repetition is effective in getting prayer answered!

perhaps repetition is effective in drawing nearer to God ...
more prayer = more communication with God = more getting to know Him
calling on the name of Christ is hardly a bad thing methinks.

 

[Philothei]

So... why David's psalms are repetitive? he must have been .... out of it I guess...

 

[Philothei]

Spending your time praying according to you Otto is vanity then.... case closed...