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Creating a New Nation! The New C.S.A. (2)

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DrStrangelove

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Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force! You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you. In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms on other Fronts, you will bring about the destruction of the CSA war machine, the elimination of Confederate tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world. Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle hardened. He will fight savagely. But this is the year 2012! Much has happened since the CSA triumphs of 2010-11. The United Nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeats, in open battle, man-to-man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground. Our Home Fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war, and placed at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men. The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to Victory! I have full confidence in your courage and devotion to duty and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full Victory! Good luck!


- Slightly modified "D-Day" Speech, originally said by Dwight D. Eisenhower.
 
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Gremlins

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Interesting side note: The CSA would have no linguists. Knowledge of linguistics is enough to prove the Tower of Babel 100% wrong for long time. Actually, now I think about it, the "historical linguistics vs. Tower of Babel" argument is an almost perfect analogy of the "evolution vs. first chapter of Genesis" one.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Interesting side note: The CSA would have no linguists. Knowledge of linguistics is enough to prove the Tower of Babel 100% wrong for long time. Actually, now I think about it, the "historical linguistics vs. Tower of Babel" argument is an almost perfect analogy of the "evolution vs. first chapter of Genesis" one.

Linguists -- another in a long list of people who'll end up hanging from trees in the C.S.A.

Anyone capable of thinking -- or worse, teaching -- threatens to undermine the "Believe a literal Bible or HANG!" mentality that the C.S.A. needs to keep its people under their boot.

Knowledge has always been Kryponite to a fundamentalist -- just ask Galileo.
 
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Gremlins

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Linguists -- another in a long list of people who'll end up hanging from trees in the C.S.A.

Anyone capable of thinking -- or worse, teaching -- threatens to undermine the "Believe a literal Bible or HANG!" mentality that the C.S.A. needs to keep its people under their boot.

Knowledge has always been Kryponite to a fundamentalist -- just ask Galileo.
Presumably they'd have to ban english-foreign language dictionaries, since they can be used to reconstruct proto-forms. Oh, and deny the existance of any written work before about 1750 (bye bye KJV!).

Come to think of it, these little "in the CSA, X would be hanged from the town hall" ideas are fun. Let's think of some more:

-Linguists
-Biologists
-Socialists
-Libertarians
-Atheists
-Folks who work on Sunday
-All journalists not currently working for Townhall
gotta catch 'em all! (or not, since Japanese cartoons would be banned aswell).
 
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Nathan Poe

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Presumably they'd have to ban english-foreign language dictionaries, since they can be used to reconstruct proto-forms. Oh, and deny the existance of any written work before about 1750 (bye bye KJV!).

And make the possession of such works punishible by...

--SURVEY SAYS! --

Hanging!
 
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TheReasoner

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Don't forget you guys, physics would also be illegal. As would astronomy. I mean, these prove you can't read the genesis creation tale literally.
You know, if you were to accept that as literal, there are stars in the night sky you wouldn't be able to see because they are too far away for the light to have reached us.

Edwin Hubble would have been hanged in the CSA, no doubt about that.
What a country of recession and scientific collapse Shield's proposing.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Presumably they'd have to ban english-foreign language dictionaries, since they can be used to reconstruct proto-forms. Oh, and deny the existance of any written work before about 1750 (bye bye KJV!).

Come to think of it, these little "in the CSA, X would be hanged from the town hall" ideas are fun. Let's think of some more:

-Linguists
-Biologists
-Socialists
-Libertarians
-Atheists
-Folks who work on Sunday
-All journalists not currently working for Townhall
gotta catch 'em all! (or not, since Japanese cartoons would be banned aswell).

Saturday, Saturday!

Remember, since we're dealing with OT laws (Jesus who?) then we're necessarily dealing with the OT Sabbath -- unless the C.S.A. wants to finally drop the pretense of Biblical living.
 
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Nathan Poe

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OT:

You know it is amazing we don't have three day weekends since Friday is a day of rest for Muslims.

Gotta be the most convincing argument for multiculturalism I've heard yet.

Also, that's the reason George Carlin once said, "Don't pray on Mondays. The Muslim Sabbath's on Friday, the Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday, and the Christian Sabbath is on Sunday.

By Monday, God is hung over."
 
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DrStrangelove

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With all the loss in brainpower it would be amazing they could keep a 20th century technology based society going, much less a modern army.

I wonder how quickly things would break down.
You're making the brash assumption that there would be enough people to serve in an army or be enough people for there to be a breakdown. They'd either all be hanging from lightposts or simply running in the opposite direction of the CSA.
 
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Paulos23

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You're making the brash assumption that there would be enough people to serve in an army or be enough people for there to be a breakdown. They'd either all be hanging from lightposts or simply running in the opposite direction of the CSA.
Good point. I bet someone would make a fortune on rope.....just before they hang.
 
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Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force! You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you. In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms on other Fronts, you will bring about the destruction of the CSA war machine, the elimination of Confederate tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world. Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle hardened. He will fight savagely. But this is the year 2012! Much has happened since the CSA triumphs of 2010-11. The United Nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeats, in open battle, man-to-man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground. Our Home Fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war, and placed at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men. The tide has turned! The free men of the world are marching together to Victory! I have full confidence in your courage and devotion to duty and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full Victory! Good luck!


- Slightly modified "D-Day" Speech, originally said by Dwight D. Eisenhower.

You can make a similar quote from the "dark side" as well. No doubt CSA Supreme Overlord ShieldofFaith will need a secret police director or perhaps a "Grand Inquisitor" to enforce his dictates. Here's a speech that has been slightly modified by a speech from Heinrich Himmler to an SS meeting:

Grand Inquisitor speech to the CSA "Purification Brigades":
"Most of you know what it means when a hundred corpses are lying side by side, or five hundred or one thousand. To have stuck it out, and at the same time - apart from exceptions caused by original sin - to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard... Homosexuality is a sin worthy of death by God. We had the moral right, we had the duty to God and the CSA to destroy this people, the homosexuals, which wanted to destroy us."
 
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Suomipoika

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Hey, where is
[/FONT]Suomipoika? I hope he's alright.

I've been... thinking... I think you've got me convinced... the OT law probably should be re-established like you've said... and... I've been reading what the Law of God says about sins and punishments.. I think I've committed some sins that deserve the death penalty according to the Law of God. Like working on the sabbath, and saying some mean things to my parents... so I don't know but.. maybe this is it... the end of my road...

A tout le monde, a tout les amis... je vous aime, je dois parti.

Thank you Shield for helping me understand the truth of God's Law... I don't know if I'll be back again... God bless you all... stick to the Truth of God's Law...

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
 
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DrStrangelove

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I've been... thinking... I think you've got me convinced... the OT law probably should be re-established like you've said... and... I've been reading what the Law of God says about sins and punishments.. I think I've committed some sins that deserve the death penalty according to the Law of God. Like working on the sabbath, and saying some mean things to my parents... so I don't know but.. maybe this is it... the end of my road...

A tout le monde, a tout les amis... je vous aime, je dois parti.

Thank you Shield for helping me understand the truth of God's Law... I don't know if I'll be back again... God bless you all... stick to the Truth of God's Law...

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
aw. Surely you remember that Dave specifically said that 'A tout le monde' wasn't about suicide...
 
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ShieldOFaith

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No madman should be ignored, especially when you see someone else taking heart in his evil ravings.



All too well. And like others that have been pointed out to be the evil people they are, he squirms and shifts and tries to re-paint his bad ideas as something better. Which is why we should point out the evil he is basing his nation on, and not focus on the veneer of Holiness he keeps trying to rap it in.

Paul, read this, understand this; know it.

VII. THE APPLICATION OF GOD'S LAW TO CIVIL JUSTICE
In order to more fully comprehend the issue at hand, it is important to understand the historical divisions of God's law. To aid our understanding, God's law has been divided into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. This division is found in our Westminster Confession, chapter 19. The moral law is summarized in the 10 commandments and are, without question, applicable to the believer today (see WCF 19:2,5,6,7).




The ceremonial law was designed to be applied only in the shadows of the Old Covenant, since those bloody ceremonies served as sign posts pointing to the One whose blood would take away sin. The bloody rituals of the Old Covenant have been replaced by bloodless signs of baptism and the Lord's Supper in the New Covenant. The bloody signs of the Old Covenant pointed to a savior to come. The bloodless signs of the New Covenant point back to the savior who has come. It would not be accurate, however, to say that these ceremonial laws are abolished. They still teach us the principle that God requires a substitutionary blood sacrifice in order to forgive sins. For example, if you are traveling from Monroe to Jackson on I-20, the signs informing you of the number of miles to Jackson are very helpful. Once you arrive in Jackson, however, you no longer need those signs. They have served their purpose. They still apply to those traveling to Jackson and they still serve to remind you of where you were and the distance you have traveled.



The third category of the law is the judicial category and this is where the bulk of the controversy lies. The question is as follows: Are the judicial and penal sanctions in the law of Moses applicable to the Civil Magistrate today? The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 19:4 states: "To them (Israel) also as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws which expired together with the state of that people; not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

Although this statement from our Confession seems hopelessly confusing, a bit of careful thinking should clear the fog. First, it CANNOT mean that it is God's intent for the judicial law not to be applied at all. This would mean that the State is not under God in any way and implies that the Bible has nothing to say at all about penal justice. This is absolutely unconscionable and I cannot understand how any Christian could advocate such a monstrous position.

Besides, this interpretation of 19:4 is radically inconsistent with the Westminster Standards in other places. In the original version of the WCF, chapter 23, pertaining to the Civil Magistrate, one of the duties outlined by the Westminster Divines for the Civil Magistrate was that he is responsible to see that "all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed."

Although this provision was deleted in the late 1700's in the American version of the WCF, it is interesting to note that WLC question 108 (citing Deut. 7:5) was left intact. "The duties required in the Second Commandment are...disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship; and according to one's place and calling, removing it and all monuments of idolatry."

There is an interesting historical vignette helpful to our discussion on the relationship between the Westminster Confession and Theonomy. According to the book, Minutes of the Sessions of the Westminster Assembly, p. 211, discussing the debate on Chapter 20, Of Christian Liberty and the Liberty of Conscience, the wording originally passed by the Assembly was "under the gospel consists, especially in freedom from the guilt and power of sin...from the ceremonial and judicial law..." The phrase: "freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law was moved to a point later in the section. For the purpose of our discussion, however, the important point is that any mention of being free from the judicial law was excised altogether and never appeared in the WCF. (Thanks to Bill Anderson for this information). This means, that as a result of the debate at the Assembly, the Divines determined that the Christian was not free from the claims of the judicial law!

There is also a "theonomic flavor" in Larger Catechism, question 191, which asks: "What do we pray for in the second petition?

Part of the answer reads: "...the Church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ be purely dispensed... Thus, the Civil Magistrate has a role in protecting the true Church and keeping her pure. Reformed Presbyterians opposed to theonomy, must, in order to maintain integrity, take exceptions to these provisions in our Standards.

NOW PAY REAL CLOSE ATTENTION HERE:

Secondly, if the judicial laws no longer apply in any way, how could any civil magistrate do his duty according to Romans 13? Romans 13:4 teaches us that it is the duty of the Civil Magistrate to be an avenger of God's wrath on the one who practices evil. How is a Civil Magistrate to carry out this duty without an absolute standard of what is good and evil? Without biblical judicial law, it is up to the magistrate himself to determine what is good or evil. The magistrate or legislative body must then arbitrarily determine the punishment for criminal behavior. Thus, King James I of England applied the death penalty for pickpocketing. An abandonment of theonomy leads to arbitrariness, tyranny and uneven punishment. Although Old Testament law has an unjustified reputation of being harsh, a theonomic ethic actually serves to protect citizens against tyrants run amuck. Thirdly, Christians must remember who wrote the judicial laws. They come from the mind of a perfectly good and just God.

God is perfectly fair. An abandonment of theonomy implies that man is wiser than God. It implies that God does not know what He is doing when it comes to civil law. Does any Christian really believe that better and more just laws can come from the minds of sinful, finite, fallen men? How absurd!! Christians who detest theonomy must understand that they are arguing against God.

Theonomists did not write those civil laws, God wrote each one of them. Theonomists believe the laws of God are wiser than men and at least are attempting to believe them and apply them.

The Westminster Divines employed the terms "general equity" because they understood that the Bible was written to apply to all cultures in all times. The case laws provide man with principles of justice that can be applied to all nations in all epochs. For example, Deuteronomy 22:8 requires a parapet to be built around the roof of a home. The theonomic position does NOT maintain that all houses today must have a guard rail constructed on the roof. We look for the general equity of the law. What is God teaching us in this statute? The general equity is a principle of safety. There are many modern applications, such as a requirement to build a fence around a swimming pool, lest a child wander in and drown. If someone owned a house with a flat roof and he entertained guests on the roof, the general equity would be, in that case, a literal application of the law.

To those who deny that the principles of the Old Testament civil code apply today, there is a question that must be answered. With what do you plan to replace God's law? Are the Republicans and Democrats more competent than the Almighty to draft just and righteous laws? Is fallen man better equipped than God to write laws which restrain crime and more efficiently govern people?
--Pastor T. Mark Duncan


Exercise your brain and learn something new. And understand that you are wrong and you are lying when you say I am evil.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.
 
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DrStrangelove

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Paul, read this, understand this; know it.

VII. THE APPLICATION OF GOD'S LAW TO CIVIL JUSTICE
In order to more fully comprehend the issue at hand, it is important to understand the historical divisions of God's law. To aid our understanding, God's law has been divided into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. This division is found in our Westminster Confession, chapter 19. The moral law is summarized in the 10 commandments and are, without question, applicable to the believer today (see WCF 19:2,5,6,7).




The ceremonial law was designed to be applied only in the shadows of the Old Covenant, since those bloody ceremonies served as sign posts pointing to the One whose blood would take away sin. The bloody rituals of the Old Covenant have been replaced by bloodless signs of baptism and the Lord's Supper in the New Covenant. The bloody signs of the Old Covenant pointed to a savior to come. The bloodless signs of the New Covenant point back to the savior who has come. It would not be accurate, however, to say that these ceremonial laws are abolished. They still teach us the principle that God requires a substitutionary blood sacrifice in order to forgive sins. For example, if you are traveling from Monroe to Jackson on I-20, the signs informing you of the number of miles to Jackson are very helpful. Once you arrive in Jackson, however, you no longer need those signs. They have served their purpose. They still apply to those traveling to Jackson and they still serve to remind you of where you were and the distance you have traveled.



The third category of the law is the judicial category and this is where the bulk of the controversy lies. The question is as follows: Are the judicial and penal sanctions in the law of Moses applicable to the Civil Magistrate today? The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 19:4 states: "To them (Israel) also as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws which expired together with the state of that people; not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

Although this statement from our Confession seems hopelessly confusing, a bit of careful thinking should clear the fog. First, it CANNOT mean that it is God's intent for the judicial law not to be applied at all. This would mean that the State is not under God in any way and implies that the Bible has nothing to say at all about penal justice. This is absolutely unconscionable and I cannot understand how any Christian could advocate such a monstrous position.

Besides, this interpretation of 19:4 is radically inconsistent with the Westminster Standards in other places. In the original version of the WCF, chapter 23, pertaining to the Civil Magistrate, one of the duties outlined by the Westminster Divines for the Civil Magistrate was that he is responsible to see that "all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed."

Although this provision was deleted in the late 1700's in the American version of the WCF, it is interesting to note that WLC question 108 (citing Deut. 7:5) was left intact. "The duties required in the Second Commandment are...disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship; and according to one's place and calling, removing it and all monuments of idolatry."

There is an interesting historical vignette helpful to our discussion on the relationship between the Westminster Confession and Theonomy. According to the book, Minutes of the Sessions of the Westminster Assembly, p. 211, discussing the debate on Chapter 20, Of Christian Liberty and the Liberty of Conscience, the wording originally passed by the Assembly was "under the gospel consists, especially in freedom from the guilt and power of sin...from the ceremonial and judicial law..." The phrase: "freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law was moved to a point later in the section. For the purpose of our discussion, however, the important point is that any mention of being free from the judicial law was excised altogether and never appeared in the WCF. (Thanks to Bill Anderson for this information). This means, that as a result of the debate at the Assembly, the Divines determined that the Christian was not free from the claims of the judicial law!

There is also a "theonomic flavor" in Larger Catechism, question 191, which asks: "What do we pray for in the second petition?

Part of the answer reads: "...the Church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ be purely dispensed... Thus, the Civil Magistrate has a role in protecting the true Church and keeping her pure. Reformed Presbyterians opposed to theonomy, must, in order to maintain integrity, take exceptions to these provisions in our Standards.

NOW PAY REAL CLOSE ATTENTION HERE:

Secondly, if the judicial laws no longer apply in any way, how could any civil magistrate do his duty according to Romans 13? Romans 13:4 teaches us that it is the duty of the Civil Magistrate to be an avenger of God's wrath on the one who practices evil. How is a Civil Magistrate to carry out this duty without an absolute standard of what is good and evil? Without biblical judicial law, it is up to the magistrate himself to determine what is good or evil. The magistrate or legislative body must then arbitrarily determine the punishment for criminal behavior. Thus, King James I of England applied the death penalty for pickpocketing. An abandonment of theonomy leads to arbitrariness, tyranny and uneven punishment. Although Old Testament law has an unjustified reputation of being harsh, a theonomic ethic actually serves to protect citizens against tyrants run amuck. Thirdly, Christians must remember who wrote the judicial laws. They come from the mind of a perfectly good and just God.

God is perfectly fair. An abandonment of theonomy implies that man is wiser than God. It implies that God does not know what He is doing when it comes to civil law. Does any Christian really believe that better and more just laws can come from the minds of sinful, finite, fallen men? How absurd!! Christians who detest theonomy must understand that they are arguing against God.

Theonomists did not write those civil laws, God wrote each one of them. Theonomists believe the laws of God are wiser than men and at least are attempting to believe them and apply them.

The Westminster Divines employed the terms "general equity" because they understood that the Bible was written to apply to all cultures in all times. The case laws provide man with principles of justice that can be applied to all nations in all epochs. For example, Deuteronomy 22:8 requires a parapet to be built around the roof of a home. The theonomic position does NOT maintain that all houses today must have a guard rail constructed on the roof. We look for the general equity of the law. What is God teaching us in this statute? The general equity is a principle of safety. There are many modern applications, such as a requirement to build a fence around a swimming pool, lest a child wander in and drown. If someone owned a house with a flat roof and he entertained guests on the roof, the general equity would be, in that case, a literal application of the law.

To those who deny that the principles of the Old Testament civil code apply today, there is a question that must be answered. With what do you plan to replace God's law? Are the Republicans and Democrats more competent than the Almighty to draft just and righteous laws? Is fallen man better equipped than God to write laws which restrain crime and more efficiently govern people?
--Pastor T. Mark Duncan


Exercise your brain and learn something new. And understand that you are wrong and you are lying when you say I am evil.

SOLI DEO GLORIA.


You know, you still can't grasp the fact that, hey, not everyone agrees with you, or that guy, and that the more you quote him, the more we think you and him should be locked up for the rest of your physical lives for the betterment of mankind.
 
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ShieldOFaith

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I'm thinking that Bibles would be allowed in Hebrew (for the OT) and Greek (for the New). After all, can't allow normal people to actually read their Bibles and come to a interpretation than SoF's.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 "And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. --Exodus 21

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " --Matthew 15

Jesus is reaffirming the death penalty for delinquent children. He is rebuking men for trying to destroy GODS Word and making it null and void.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand the Word of GOD.

SOLA SCRIPTURA.
[/FONT]
 
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DrStrangelove

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]17 "And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. --Exodus 21[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " --Matthew 15[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Jesus is reaffirming the death penalty for delinquent children. He is rebuking men for trying to destroy GODS Word and making it null and void.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand the Word of GOD.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]SOLA SCRIPTURA.[/FONT]
No, that's way too out of your league. Your level is more around, ehhh...I'll be generous, kindergarten/preschool.
 
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