Oopart dinosaurs? ideas please..

[OldWiseGuy]

But, the evidence does not fit a flood model. Period.

There is no worldwide flood model (yet). If large areas of land were washed away in a huge flood how do you construct a model? To construct a model you have to know what the land looked like before the flood. Also the exact location of the geologic anomoly (like the earthquake that caused the Indonesian tsunami) that started the flood.

No scientist would ever construct such a model anyway.

In the oil and gas industry, if one were to use a flood model they would not find any oil and gas reserves beyond that expected stochastically.

I would look in the Gulf of Mexico, especially the coastal area, if I thought there was big flood over what is now North America. That is where I would think large amounts of plant and animal material would have been deposited.

So, where is your evidence of a global flood? What ould the geology look like if it was formed in a global flood?

Can't really tell as there is no flood model that large. We do know that all areas of the earth reveal deposition by or through water over millions of years.

owg

 

[Molal]

There is no worldwide flood model (yet).



I would look in the Gulf of Mexico, especially the coastal area, if I thought there was big flood over what is now North America.



We don't know. There is no global flood model.

owg

There is no flood model because there is no evidence for a global flood.

And why would you look at the coastal region of the gulf of mexico to find oil and gas if you thought there was a "big flood over what is now North America"?

What does a flood and oil/gas have to do with a flood?

 

[Mallon]

Well, for an evoutionist, evolution must needs to do exactly that, or there would be no multi-cellular living things.

You're mistaken. I highly recommend that you read up about the left wall of minimal complexity, since you do not seem to be familiar with it. I'll summarize it in a caption (take from here: http://brembs.net/gould.html).

[SIZE=-1]PROGRESS DOES NOT RULE (and is not even a primary thrust of ) the evolutionary process. For reasons of chemistry and physics, life arises next to the "left wall" of its simplest conceivable and preservable complexity. This style of life (bacterial) has remained most common and most successful. A few creatures occasionally move to the right, thus extending the right tail in the distribution of complexity. Many always move to the left, but they are absorbed within space already occupied. Note that the bacterial mode has never changed in position, but just grown higher.[/SIZE]

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is no flood model because there is no evidence for a global flood.

And why would you look at the coastal region of the gulf of mexico to find oil and gas if you thought there was a "big flood over what is now North America"?

What does a flood and oil/gas have to do with a flood?

Sorry. Go back an read my post. I have added details to it that answer your question.

This is curious as well. You mentioned oil and gas exploration and flood models. I answered it. Then you wondered what the connection is. ????????????

owg

 

[NathanCGreen]

Even if those pictures are genuine, evolution doesn't predict that dinosaurs and man cannot coexist.

How convenient for you to say such a thing Shernren. All you evos do is make up fairy stories to fit what you see, but you claim to be scientific in all areas... what hogwash! I have always heard that dinos and man could never have lived together according to the evolutionary belief system. But now they can? So, instead of changing your view, you change your interpretation, which is, funnily enough, contrary to the majority of evo opinions on the matter.
Give all of us the evolutionary predictive scenario in this matter then... go on, what is it?
Your reasoning in this case tells us that whatever may come along, the evolution model would still not be affected... Oh boy, are you in deep!

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I've found another similar picture of dinosaurs..Slate palette from Hierakonpolis showing the triumph of King Nar-mer with long-necked dragons (James B. Pritchard, The Ancient Near East in Pictures, p.93).

it must have been the best picture they could get for the cylinder seal.. (wishful thinking from creationist site that the birds shown are pterosaurs)
early Mesopotamian cylinder seal (Moortgart, Anton, The Art of Ancient Mesopotamia, 1969, plate 292)

 

[Molal]

Sorry. Go back an read my post. I have added details to it that answer your question.

This is curious as well. You mentioned oil and gas exploration and flood models. I answered it. Then you wondered what the connection is. ????????????

owg

You misunderstand my question. Using a flood ideology, one could not find oil and gas reserves. Oil and gas reserves require an old earth for formation and, based on the evidence, the exploration model that has been created works very well.

So, you state there is no flood model because you would have to know what the land looked like before - which is not true. You can construct a model from current data without the need for knowledge of former land mass topography. This is how science works.

So, may I ask whether your biblical ideology is YEC, OEC, TE or otherwise. Thanks

 

[juvenissun]

You misunderstand my question. Using a flood ideology, one could not find oil and gas reserves. Oil and gas reserves require an old earth for formation and, based on the evidence, the exploration model that has been created works very well.

1. As long as the burial was quick enough, oil can be made in hundreds of years if not in tens of years.
2. How can you be sure that oil and gas will be kept tight underground for millions of years?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You misunderstand my question. Using a flood ideology, one could not find oil and gas reserves. Oil and gas reserves require an old earth for formation and, based on the evidence, the exploration model that has been created works very well.

So, you state there is no flood model because you would have to know what the land looked like before - which is not true. You can construct a model from current data without the need for knowledge of former land mass topography. This is how science works.

So, may I ask whether your biblical ideology is YEC, OEC, TE or otherwise. Thanks

OEC with my own twists. I believe periodic flooding over millions of years washed animal and vegetation remains into low lying areas inland, and onto coastal areas, thus providing the material for oil and gas. Noah's flood may well have provided some of this although I believe most to be ancient.

Regarding flood models. I have seen computer models of predicted ocean rise and how it would affect coastal areas. A worldwide model could be made, but it would show topography as it exists now, not how it looked before Noah's flood. I can't see how a pre-flood model could be envisioned. However a simple model could be made to demonstrate that a small upward movement of the ocean floor in several places could cause such a flood, even to the height of Mt. Everest.

In fact I'm actually surprised that some Christian scientist hasn't done it already.

owg

 

[Molal]

1. As long as the burial was quick enough, oil can be made in hundreds of years if not in tens of years.
2. How can you be sure that oil and gas will be kept tight underground for millions of years?

I agree hydrocarbons can be produced quickly; however, it would need burial to a great depth (4-8 kilometres deep) and relatively high temperature. The material would have to sit in thee conditions for sometime to produce hydrocarbons. The exact temp and pressure requirements are known through several alterations indices used in geology.

Hydrocarbons can be kept under ground against cap rocks - rocks of very low hydrocarbon permeability. Over situations of capping petroleum reserves include faults, folding, salt and mud diapirs and diapiric structures in general.

The oil and gas industry use geology and all it's "old-earth" theories to make money and discover new plays. Indeed, ore and mining companies use exactly the same theories. I have never met a christian who works as a geologist in oil/gas/coal/ore/mining that thought a literal genesis interpretation is correct.

 

[Molal]

OEC with my own twists. I believe periodic flooding over millions of years washed animal and vegetation remains into low lying areas inland, and onto coastal areas, thus providing the material for oil and gas. Noah's flood may well have provided some of this although I believe most to be ancient.

Regarding flood models. I have seen computer models of predicted ocean rise and how it would affect coastal areas. A worldwide model could be made, but it would show topography as it exists now, not how it looked before Noah's flood. I can't see how a pre-flood model could be envisioned. However a simple model could be made to demonstrate that a small upward movement of the ocean floor in several places could cause such a flood, even to the height of Mt. Everest.

In fact I'm actually surprised that some Christian scientist hasn't done it already.

owg

Thank you for being upfront - I appreciate it!

Frequently in oil and gas exploration and in coal mining (both open-cast and mining), we find the source rocks interbedded with sediments. The sediments are coarse grained and fine grained interbeds that depict a fluctuating sea level. The palaeoenvironment is indicative of low energy transgress:regression sequences and not a one-time global flood.

In coal deposits, we find fossilized plant vegetation such as tree trunks, leaves, etc. that are often observed in place, i.e. not reworked by fluvial or marine processes. This palaeoenvironment is indicative of a terrestrial environment.

I do not know if a christian scientist has done modeling for sea floor rising and flooding. If someone has, they did not publish it and choose to "hide" their results. But the calculation would not be difficult - you would need to find the volume of water needed to fill the space between sea level and the top of everest and then figure out by how much to raise the sea floor to fill that space.

 

[LittleNipper]

There is no evidence, none at all for a global flood. You have danced past the question.

1. What evidence is there for a global flood.
2. Describe what you would expect to see for a global flood.
3. What evidence is there for a literal interpretation of the bible?
4. Why do you hold onto an interpretation that is in direct opposition to the world God created? Why are you so dogmatic to this interpretation?

No you are testing my patience by saying, "No, there isn't! No, there isn't! No, there isn't." Sorry buddy, I totally disagree. The FLOOD happened thousands of years ago. There have been numberless meteor/asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions, crust upheavel, etc., etc., etc., since then. You want to see everything in extended ages. I see through the Bible events far more condensed.

 

[theFijian]

How many meteor/asteroid strikes have there been on earth? How do they fit into a 6000 year time-frame?

 

[LittleNipper]

You're mistaken. I highly recommend that you read up about the left wall of minimal complexity, since you do not seem to be familiar with it. I'll summarize it in a caption (take from here: http://brembs.net/gould.html).

Baloney! What you say even sounds idiotic. "Some move to the right......... others to the left......" And so bacteria sprouts arms, legs, eyes and gets larger ---- until we have a man.... Yeah! That works....... NOT!

 

[Molal]

No you are testing my patience by saying, "No, there isn't! No, there isn't! No, there isn't." Sorry buddy, I totally disagree. The FLOOD happened thousands of years ago. There have been numberless meteor/asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions, crust upheavel, etc., etc., etc., since then. You want to see everything in extended ages. I see through the Bible events far more condensed.

Then show me the evidence. Peer reviewed, published scientific evidence.

If you are so sure of your biblical interpretation then there should clearly be evidence.

 

[LittleNipper]

How many meteor/asteroid strikes have there been on earth? How do they fit into a 6000 year time-frame?

It is hard to say. A theory could be that an asteroid signaled the beginning of the FLOOD. This may have been preceeded by many smaller meteors. This would seem to be in keeping with the future Tribulation period where the mention of what sounds to be an asteriod plunges into the ocean (WORM WOOD). Even later in the Tribulation there is a terrible meteoric shower of some sort. So there is probable cause to note that likely at the start of the FLOOD, during the FLOOD and more than likely after the FLOOD, there were asteroid, meteor, and comet strikes. When they hit could likely be determined by how the surrounding area appears. One must understand that Noah, his family, the ark were completely protected by GOD. One should also understand that the earth's "remodeling" was also in the hands of GOD.

 

[LittleNipper]

Then show me the evidence. Peer reviewed, published scientific evidence.

If you are so sure of your biblical interpretation then there should clearly be evidence.

I would suggest you begin your own journey to research both what has been reported in the past (hundred plus years) and then research what is being said today and why. The final thing would be to do your own research and perhaps even incorporate computer generated models.

 

[Molal]

I would suggest you begin your own journey to research both what has been reported in the past (hundred plus years) and then research what is being said today and why. The final thing would be to do your own research and perhaps even incorporate computer generated models.

I have done research, I currently perform research, I have worked on oil and gas rigs and explored for minerals and ores.

So, we come back to the question of peer reviewed, published data to back up your assertion. Clearly, if what you suggest is true, you would have evidence. What is the evidence?

 

[juvenissun]

Hydrocarbons can be kept under ground against cap rocks - rocks of very low hydrocarbon permeability. Over situations of capping petroleum reserves include faults, folding, salt and mud diapirs and diapiric structures in general.

The cap rock will also leak all the oil/gas out in tens of millions of years.

 

[Molal]

The cap rock will also leak all the oil/gas out in tens of millions of years.

Based on the hydrocarbon permeability of the cap rock, some or all of the hydrocarbon will leak out. In a highly impermeable cap rock, it would take billions of years for the hydrocarbon to leak out.

Hence why I used the term permeability.