Isaac or Ishmael?

[Montalban]

In the Bible God repeats so many times that He will not leave His beloved (Israel). He says that His covenant will last forever with them. Of course, the Muslims will have to say that the Jews tampered with the passages to make themselves look good. The have no proof of that or any other things that they propose.

They are like those who play the lottery and do not win. Somehow they are certain that they will win the next time. And when next time does not produce, they keep saying next time. After a while they believe anyways although deep down in their hearts, know that they are not going to win. But, they have built up this belief and can not let go of it.

I understand this. They do not. They proclaim that Ishmael is a prophet; though what teachings he made is unclear. Especially there's another logical flaw here. Ishmael founded the Arab nation; if he had revelations from al-lah, then those would have been passed onto the Arabs - but what happened to them? Where is the Book of Ishmael?

Secondly, they try to increase the status of Ishmael so as to add to some pedigree to their lineage. Even doing this there is still NO covenant between Ishmael and al-lah, so why would al-lah deceive the Jews for so long, giving them prophet after prophet after prophet? Odd too that Jesus whom we Christians believe to be the fulfilment of prophecy is the last prophet to the Jews (even by Muslim reckoning). But why did al-lah change his mind?

There's no mention in the Bible concerning a covenant with Ishmael. Sure, they'd argue, it's been distorted. But then where is it in the Koran? I quoted from the Koran the complete list of quotes regarding covenant, and there's no mention of covenant in connection with him.

 

[Montalban]

But, someone does win. They believe they might be the next to win. Moslems have attained converts and believe they are right. Editing our Holy Book to support their theories was a mistaken effort far in the past.

What they should have done, Muhammad and his hench-men is to start up a their completely new religion without any reference to other faiths. The pretence to being a fulfilment to a covenant already fulfilled lands them into a lot of hot water (in the sense that their arguments contradict each other).

Muhammad should have at least studied Christianity a bit better before he tried to pass off his nonsense as a continuation of it. Then he'd not have made such obvious mistakes such as he did with the Trinity..

Below is a summation of it, with reference to the twisting Muslim has put on the Koran...
Muhammad's mistake...
(Sura Al-Ma'idah)
5:116
And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.

" the doctrine of the Trinity was finally and clearly formulated about 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea in the Nicean creed"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Why-not/13trinity.html

Thus the Koran gives injunctions against worshipping in a manner no Christian performed! Christians had clearly defined the Trinity 300 years before the Koran, and yet Muhammad thinks Christians believe Mary is co-equal to God the Father and God the Son!

Muhammad made an error in belief that Christians worship a Trinity of Father, Son and Mother Mary (Sura 5:116). Muslim has attempted to distract from this association of the 'three' that Muhammad has made to a general critique of Christians who venerate Mary.

His argument is that because Christians venerate Mary we are worshipping Mary as a god... therefore Muhammad is correct. However this is a slight of hand.

Muhammad is not just saying that Christians worship Mary as a god, but that we worship a trio of gods; Father, Son and Mary. That is, he is mistaken about the nature of the Trinity. If he were truly concerned about Christian 'mistakes' of worship he'd have said that we raise two other gods with the Father; namely the Son and Holy Spirit.

The associations of Father (al-lah), Son, and Mother are repeated...
Surah 6:101
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Surah 72:3
And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.

BUT THESE THREE ARE NOT THE TRINITY.

That is, he's not condemning Christians for raising Mary; but because he believes we consider her as part of the Trinity! If he were concerned about Christians blaspheming Al-lah, then he'd have made a different case; criticising the right Trinity.

Muhammad had some knowledge of Christianity (http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/article/a06.htm#4.0) but he was wrong; as he criticises not what Christians believe, but what some heretics may have believed.

It's therefore not just a mistake in saying we worship Mary as a god; because we don't, but it is a mistake to consider that Christians worship a Trinity of Father, Son, and Mother.
The Term "Son of God" occurs 47 times in the King James New Testament. In reference to Jesus, it is a title as the heavenly, eternal Son who is equal to God the Father (John 5:18-24). It is Jesus who fully reveals the Father (Matt. 11:27). He is the exact representation of the Father (Heb. 1:1-3), He possesses all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18), and Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5).
The Muslim is taught from the Qur'an and therefore cannot accept the fact that Jesus is divine. To the Muslim, that is shirk, blasphemy of the worst kind. But believing it doesn't make it so. To the Christian, and according to the Bible, Jesus is the one who alone saves us from our sins. We cannot earn our way to heaven, perform enough good works to please God, or ever be "sincere enough" in repentance to somehow obtain forgiveness from God. Instead, Christianity is a faith of God's great love and sacrifice for His creation. Jesus, the Son of God, is the divine one who fulfilled prophecies, walked on water, healed the sick, and rose from the dead. Only the Son of God can do these things.

http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_Jesus_son.htm

 

[azri]

5:116
And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.

Surah 6:101
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Surah 72:3
And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.

Where is the word Christian in these verse?

 

[Bevlina]

Would you expect it to be there azri?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

Would you expect it to be there azri?

I didn't find "Muslim" either!

 

[Bevlina]

Me neither!

 

[Crispie]

Isaac. This was a test of faith to Abraham. God had promised that he would be the father of as many children as the stars, and even stressed that Isaac would have children. When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, this was a true test of faith. Abraham knew that God said Isaac would have children, and in faith and trust in God went through with the sacrifice knowing God would do something, and God did. This is heavily stressed in the NT.


Hebrew 11
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring[b] will be reckoned.”[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

 

[markie]

You're a man of very few words... but not 'yes' or 'no'

I don't know why you believe al-lah made some for hell (see Muslim's quotes; some made for worship, others not)

That might be smoothing like the bible says God has predestinated us to son ship. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[markie]

This is true I think. Muslims and Christians believe in 2 different Jesus's. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and nothing will deter me from that.
Similarly, you believe in the Qu'ran and won't deter from that. And fair enough.
We can agree to disagree without any hassles.

I think it might be more accurate to say we believe in the same Jesus we just don't agree on who He was. Similarly if we both worship the God of Abraham we worship the same God we just don't agree that the bible is His word.They can't change God so they changed His words which is about the same thing because God is revealed through his word and if they change it it's like they are changing God. At least they got His name right though if Allah is Arabic for eloah.

 

[Crispie]

Muslims worship Allah, Christians and Jews worship God. End of story. Their god is entirely different than ours. Just because one religion tried applying one religion to their own, doesnt mean that their god is now the same one as ours. This is something Muslims could easily say the same about our religion and their god.

 

[tulc]

Muslims worship Allah, Christians and Jews worship God. End of story. Their god is entirely different than ours.

Uhhmm the Arabic word for God is Allah. It's like telling someone from from Spain they can't use the word Deo. Our ideas about God are different, but Arab Christians use the same word.
tulc(sippin' coffee, typing posts!)

 

[markie]

Where is the word Christian in these verse?

They took it out. More than one hundred Qor'anic aberrations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic have been noted. Needless to say, the commentators strove to find explanations and justifications of these irregularities. Among them was the great commentator and philologist Mahmud oz-Zamakhshariof whom a Moorish author wrote: `This grammar-obsessed pedant has committed a shocking error. Our task is not to make the readings conform to Arabic grammar, but to take the whole of the Qor'an as it is and make Arabic grammar conform to the Qor'an.'" (p. 50)"In the field of moral teachings, however, the Qor'an cannot be considered miraculous. Mohammad reiterated principles which mankind had already conceived in earlier centuries and many places. Confucius, Buddha, Zoroaster, Socrates, Moses, and Jesus had said similar things."Neither the Qor'an's eloquence nor its moral and legal precepts are miraculous. Christians are claimed by the Qur’an to believe in a family of gods — Father God, mother Mary and ‘Isa the son — but ‘Isa rejected this teaching. (Al-Ma’idah 5:116) The doctrine of the Trinity is disbelief and a painful doom awaits those who believe it. (Al-Ma’idah 5:73)
The trinity does not include a mother Before Islam in the fifth century A.D. a heretical doctrine appeared. (A heretical doctrine is an untrue and strange teaching of an infidel or a heretic.) The adherents of this doctrine were heathens who embraced Christianity. As pagans they worshipped the planet Venus and said that it was "the queen of heaven". After embracing Christianity they tried to associate what they had worshipped with Christian doctrine. They considered Mary as "queen of heaven" or "goddess of heaven" instead of Venus. Consequently, they called themselves Mariamists. They came to believe that there are three gods: God, Mary, and Christ .http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/article/a06.htm#4.0
http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/islamic_jesus.html
http://www.geocities.com/islampencereleri3/querying_the_koran.htm Contrary to your belief there is more than one veering of book. There is at least two, this says there is 14 but there is more than one out, there were from 7-14 different versions written of which 4 survive today.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/islam_untrustworthykoran.html There are verses missing from the original. http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

 

[azri]

[font=Verdana,Arial]Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.[/font][font=Verdana,Arial](Qur'an 5:82)

Still here.
[/font]

 

[Montalban]

[font=Verdana,Arial]Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.[/font][font=Verdana,Arial](Qur'an 5:82)

Still here.
[/font]

Getting back to the topic, why did al-lah break his promise to the Jews? Where in the Koran or Bible does it say that a covenant was established between God and Ishmael.

If Ishamel is a prophet, where is the Book of Ishamel? (surely he handed it down to his descendants - the Arabs)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

bump............

This form of the greek word "cast" is used only twice in the NT/NC which I find interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Gala 4:30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you Casting Out! [#1537- #906 ek-bale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10/Revelation 11:2 "court of the Priests"]

Reve 11:2 and, the Court/aulhn <833> [Court of Priests/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one within/eswqen<2081> the Sanctuary[#3485], be you Casting Out!! [#1537-#906 ek-bale] out-side,[exw #1854]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2450494&page=5
Moses Tabernacle and God's Plan of Redemption

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi all!

I recall a conversation where there is a disagreement as to who was actually offered up for sacrifice to God by Abraham. Was it Isaac or Ishmael?

Thanks for your responses!
(if any)

Well, here is what my bro Paul said about "hagar and her son"

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Gala 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are alleghory. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, [You] who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac [was,] are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[Montalban]

Interesting too that not all Arabs consider themselves of Ishmael

 

[Futuwwa]

Is it dawn of the dead? Why are so many old threads rising back lately?

 

[peaceful soul]

Interesting too that not all Arabs consider themselves of Ishmael

That is because they are not. There were Arabs around before Ishmael was born. Thus, Ishmaellite &#8800; Arab. I think that many Muslims have taken to this notion for several reasons such as pride, tradition, power (tribal/political) and religious (probably the major one). The religious one is often use to validate the Islamic position of Mohmammd's prophethood and Islam's credibility.

 

[Jadis40]

Hi all!

I recall a conversation where there is a disagreement as to who was actually offered up for sacrifice to God by Abraham. Was it Isaac or Ishmael?

Thanks for your responses!
(if any)

Isaac.