Isaac or Ishmael?

[Kris_J]

Hi all!

I recall a conversation where there is a disagreement as to who was actually offered up for sacrifice to God by Abraham. Was it Isaac or Ishmael?

Thanks for your responses!
(if any)

 

[saiful-Islam-Khattab]

Hi all!

I recall a conversation where there is a disagreement as to who was actually offered up for sacrifice to God by Abraham. Was it Isaac or Ishmael?

Thanks for your responses!(if any)

well it depends what concept you are following here, lets start from the root of the problem, followers of the Bible have made it encumbent on themselves first of all to deny there was a marriage between Abraham and Hajar and to prefer live with the concept that Abraahnm committed adultery with Hagar and that Ismael was illegitimate.so from the beginning there is negation already.How can one enetrtain the Idea that Prophets like Abraham, David and Solomon committed adultery.If we accept Abraham committed adultery then we cannot deny David and Solomon did it to.Solomon was the Child from an adulterss then.If Ismael was?
One has to be Objective hear, i mentioned in a previous post, it is easy for the tongue to deny, but Be casreful by deny one you end up denying you r own.One has to go to the roots solve this problem and the roots have many more dire consequences.
More later Duty calls. A man's got ot do what a man's got to do. Work!
Laters

 

[Bevlina]

We have been through this. Kris_J, you carry the Catholic Faith Icon, so you know who was offered for sacrifice. It was Isaac.
Ishmael was half egyptian.

 

[peaceful soul]

well it depends what concept you are following here, lets start from the root of the problem, followers of the Bible have made it encumbent on themselves first of all to deny there was a marriage between Abraham and Hajar and to prefer live with the concept that Abraahnm committed adultery with Hagar and that Ismael was illegitimate.so from the beginning there is negation already.How can one enetrtain the Idea that Prophets like Abraham, David and Solomon committed adultery.If we accept Abraham committed adultery then we cannot deny David and Solomon did it to.Solomon was the Child from an adulterss then.If Ismael was?
One has to be Objective hear, i mentioned in a previous post, it is easy for the tongue to deny, but Be casreful by deny one you end up denying you r own.One has to go to the roots solve this problem and the roots have many more dire consequences.
More later Duty calls. A man's got ot do what a man's got to do. Work!
Laters

Abraham was not a prophet in the Bible; so your reasoning is off. Prophets were sinners just like everyone else. They are special in the sense that God ordained them to resue His word/message from distortion and to be a beacon of light to bring them back home to obedience to God. To say that they had no faults is ridiculous. The problem again is applying Islamic beliefs and concepts to a non-Islamic book.

The relationship of Abraham and Hagar was not blessed by God; therefore, the promise of God could not be carried through that union. God promised that Sarai would bear a child with Abraham despite their disbelief due to her age and her inability to bear a child up to that point. We have surely discussed this in quite detail just recently. It would do you good to search the site for our discussions.

 

[Kris_J]

We have been through this. Kris_J, you carry the Catholic Faith Icon, so you know who was offered for sacrifice. It was Isaac.
Ishmael was half egyptian.

Sure. & John Howard supporters will say that Little Johnny was innocent of the children overboard scandal.

I'd like both sides of the story please.

 

[Bevlina]

Thankyou peaceful soul.

 

[Arthra]

peaceful soul wrote:

Abraham was not a prophet in the Bible; so your reasoning is off. Prophets were sinners just like everyone else.

My reply:

But how can Abraham not be a prophet?

What did the Lord Jesus say about Abraham?

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

- Matthew 8:11

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out."

- Luke 13:28

It would seem to me that the Lord Jesus Himself placed Abraham in the Kingdom of Heaven and classified Him as a prophet.

peaceful soul wrote:

They (the Prophets) are special in the sense that God ordained them to resue ("rescue"?) His word/message from distortion and to be a beacon of light to bring them back home to obedience to God. To say that they had no faults is ridiculous. The problem again is applying Islamic beliefs and concepts to a non-Islamic book.

My response:

Consider that the Lord Jesus Himself gave the "works of Abraham" a high place in the following verse:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham"

- John 8:39

peaceful soul wrote:

The relationship of Abraham and Hagar was not blessed by God; therefore, the promise of God could not be carried through that union. God promised that Sarai would bear a child with Abraham despite their disbelief due to her age and her inability to bear a child up to that point. We have surely discussed this in quite detail just recently. It would do you good to search the site for our discussions.

My reply:

If the angel of the Lord announced that God "hath heard thy afflication" to Hagar it would seem she and the child were blessed.


"And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction."

- Genesis 16:11

And read the following:

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he [is]."

- Genesis 21:17

God blessed Hagar and Ishmael and heard them and said "fear not..."

The Bible says Ishamel was Abraham's son:

"And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre..."

Genesis 25:9

"Now these [are] the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham..."

Genesis 25:12

Ishmael is blessed by God in the following verse:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Genesis 17:20

In Genesis 17:7 God says He will establish His covenant with all the descendents of Abraham:

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

and in Genesis 17:9

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations."

It's true that to Isaac is the immediate Covenant:

As found in Genesis 17:21 "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

But the eternal Covenant is with all the descendents of Abraham which would include Ishmael and his descendents.

- Art

 

[Muslim]

I personally know that the description of the life of Ishmael in the Quran is 100% accurate. The Jews have hated Ishmael and loved Isaac because one is the father of the Children of Israel while the other is the father of the Arabs. In their hatred towards him they have taken out all the good verses in the Bible about him and even fabricated some tales about Isaac to take the credit from Ishmael. But in doing so they have contradicted parts of the Bible with their made up parts. In Genesis 22:1-19 Abraham is commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac but then he is stopped from doing so at the last minute. I'm sure your very familiar with this story in the bible. But the Bible contradicts itself in Genesis 21:1-7 when three angels come to announce to Abraham that he will have a son named Isaac and that Isaac will have a son named Jacob. So why would God command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac when he knew that Isaac would live on to have a son. There would be no point because Abraham would know that God would stop him from doing so. This is because it was Ishmael who was supposed to be sacrificed and not Isaac.

 

[markie]

Abraham was not a prophet in the Bible; so your reasoning is off. Prophets were sinners just like everyone else. They are special in the sense that God ordained them to resue His word/message from distortion and to be a beacon of light to bring them back home to obedience to God. To say that they had no faults is ridiculous. The problem again is applying Islamic beliefs and concepts to a non-Islamic book.

The relationship of Abraham and Hagar was not blessed by God; therefore, the promise of God could not be carried through that union. God promised that Sarai would bear a child with Abraham despite their disbelief due to her age and her inability to bear a child up to that point. We have surely discussed this in quite detail just recently. It would do you good to search the site for our discussions.

didn't think Abraham was a prophet either but unless this is a misprint he was, Geneses 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, . And it does say Hagar was Abraham's wife, in 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. She was an Egyptian servant girl but the bible says saria gave Hagar to abram to be his wife but that doesn't mean they were married. Apparently the word for wife can mean any woman.

 

[bouncer]

But the Bible contradicts itself in Genesis 21:1-7 when three angels come to announce to Abraham that he will have a son named Isaac and that Isaac will have a son named Jacob. So why would God command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac when he knew that Isaac would live on to have a son. There would be no point because Abraham would know that God would stop him from doing so. This is because it was Ishmael who was supposed to be sacrificed and not Isaac.

Didn't read any such prophecy in Genesis 21:1 - 7.

 

[Bevlina]

I personally know that the description of the life of Ishmael in the Quran is 100% accurate.

How could you personally know Muslim?

The Jews have hated Ishmael and loved Isaac because one is the father of the Children of Israel while the other is the father of the Arabs. In their hatred towards him they have taken out all the good verses in the Bible about him and even fabricated some tales about Isaac to take the credit from Ishmael.

I am sure you know that is not true.

But in doing so they have contradicted parts of the Bible with their made up parts. In Genesis 22:1-19 Abraham is commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac but then he is stopped from doing so at the last minute. I'm sure your very familiar with this story in the bible. But the Bible contradicts itself in Genesis 21:1-7 when three angels come to announce to Abraham that he will have a son named Isaac and that Isaac will have a son named Jacob. So why would God command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac when he knew that Isaac would live on to have a son. There would be no point because Abraham would know that God would stop him from doing so. This is because it was Ishmael who was supposed to be sacrificed and not Isaac.

Yahweh was testing Abraham's faith. Abraham was a human being. It would take alot of faith and love for Yahweh to do what Abraham did with Isaac.
But, he loved God so much, he would have willingly have sacrificed his only son for God.
Likewise , God sacrificed His own Son, Jesus.
The Old Testament always shows a shadow of things to come.

 

[saiful-Islam-Khattab]

We have been through this. Kris_J, you carry the Catholic Faith Icon, so you know who was offered for sacrifice. It was Isaac.
Ishmael was half egyptian.

So what differnce does it make what nationality he was.I am sure GOD gave him a visa.Where was moses from, does that deny him as a prophet too and Joseph etc.

 

[saiful-Islam-Khattab]

Abraham was not a prophet in the Bible; so your reasoning is off. Prophets were sinners just like everyone else. They are special in the sense that God ordained them to resue His word/message from distortion and to be a beacon of light to bring them back home to obedience to God. To say that they had no faults is ridiculous. The problem again is applying Islamic beliefs and concepts to a non-Islamic book.

The relationship of Abraham and Hagar was not blessed by God; therefore, the promise of God could not be carried through that union. God promised that Sarai would bear a child with Abraham despite their disbelief due to her age and her inability to bear a child up to that point. We have surely discussed this in quite detail just recently. It would do you good to search the site for our discussions.

According to the Bible Abraham was a prophet.

Genesis 20:
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

It is clear here. I advise you to learn the Bible first before coming to deny your own prophet was a prophet since your denial may carry serious consequences.Abraham the father of Great nations Both from the Jews and Muslims not a prophet.So quick to just deny Ismael His position.

 

[Bevlina]

Ah ... but saiful ... you say the Bible is corrupted!!

 

[saiful-Islam-Khattab]

Ah ... but saiful ... you say the Bible is corrupted!!

If you are convinced it is corrupted why still follow it then.We muslims have pointed out several times that we beleive part of the Bbile is corrupt not all.GOD sent a gospel to Jesus, that Gospel is not used by the Christians , what they prefer to quote from is the Gospel according to and according to.The words of Jesus we Beleive and parts of the OT too.
saiful-Islam

 

[Bevlina]

As I said ... YOU say.

 

[rosenherman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: Muslim

I personally know that the description of the life of Ishmael in the Quran is 100% accurate.

How could you personally know Muslim?

Quote:

Originally Posted by:

The Jews have hated Ishmael and loved Isaac because one is the father of the Children of Israel while the other is the father of the Arabs. In their hatred towards him they have taken out all the good verses in the Bible about him and even fabricated some tales about Isaac to take the credit from Ishmael.

I am sure you know that is not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by:

But in doing so they have contradicted parts of the Bible with their made up parts. In Genesis 22:1-19 Abraham is commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac but then he is stopped from doing so at the last minute. I'm sure your very familiar with this story in the bible. But the Bible contradicts itself in Genesis 21:1-7 when three angels come to announce to Abraham that he will have a son named Isaac and that Isaac will have a son named Jacob. So why would God command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac when he knew that Isaac would live on to have a son. There would be no point because Abraham would know that God would stop him from doing so. This is because it was Ishmael who was supposed to be sacrificed and not Isaac.

Yahweh was testing Abraham's faith. Abraham was a human being. It would take alot of faith and love for Yahweh to do what Abraham did with Isaac.
But, he loved God so much, he would have willingly have sacrificed his only son for God.
Likewise , God sacrificed His own Son, Jesus.
The Old Testament always shows a shadow of things to come.

Abram believed that if he were to sacrifice Isaac, he'd be miraculously restored to him because of God's promise that he would have descendents through him.

And it's silly to think that Hagar wasn't Abram's wife, God called her Abraham's wife in Genesis 12, so she was obviously his wife before he was called Abraham (Father of Nations).

Saying Ishmael a ******* is as wrong as saying Mary didn't have any other children after Jesus.

 

[new_manII]

please, can any muslim show us a verse from Quran that says Ishamel was the one who was to be offered by Abraham?????
or you just *think* he was?

 

[tulc]

How can one enetrtain the Idea that Prophets like Abraham, David and Solomon committed adultery.

Uhmm Bathsheba? I think part of the problem lies in thinking prophets are somehow exempt from being sinners. Just a thought.
tulc(one of those prophets listed was also a murderer, another was an idol worshiper later in life)

 

[Bevlina]

please, can any muslim show us a verse from Quran that says Ishamel was the one who was to be offered by Abraham?????
or you just *think* he was?

They'll show you as many as you like from their koran. But, we know the truth.