How can you justify existance without a divine Creator? How did the heavens and the earth come to form out of a vast expanse of nothing? Surely there was a divine beginning and initial creation set in motion by a higher power.
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Is atheism logical?
- Thread starter LonesomeTexan
- Start date
Freodin
Devout believer in a theologically different God
I´d say that these question about the origin of everything defy any logic, mostly because before the origin of everything, there could also be no logic.
But that does not only god for atheistic origins, but for theistic as well.
We might follow some lines of reasoning, but they are, part of the question, illogical.
You do not believe that heavens and earth came from "a vast expanse of nothing" (a contradiction in terms: how do you measure the expanse of nothing? Can nothing have an expanse?)
But how does God create heavens and earth out of nothing? Can something be created from nothing? Can God created non-God from nothing?
There is only an ad-hoc answer: yes, of course, he is God.
But that is only a claim, no explantion. An extrapolation of human concepts into the unconceivable.
THAT is the logic behind my personal Atheism: every concept of God presented is just that: an extrapolation of already known concepts into a super-concept.
Humans have no real understanding of "nothing" - it is beyond their experience. But they understand an empty something. And that is, as your own terms show, the (non)understanding of creation: God created from empty something. God forms. God forms humans from earth/clay/dust. God speaks. God breathes.
God is an extrapolation of these humans concepts. God does it like humans would do it, only better, more powerfull. God´s ways are like human´s ways, regardless of what the Bible says.
This is the case in any existing theistic religion. Every existing deity is a more or less mysterious and powerful perfect utopian superhuman... and as the concepts of "perfectness" might slightly vary from culture to culture, so do the deities.
So the theistic explanation for existence is "Yes, God can create from nothing. We might not understand how, but he can."
My atheistic explanation for existence is "Yes, something can come from nothing. We might not understand how, but it can. After all, what would prevent it from happening? There is nothing there!"
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Idea
Veteran
Do you not use the same logic? Who created God?
Who created matter? Energy? Laws of thermo say you can't get something from nothing - conservation of mass of energy ... of life - you do not get something from nothing. Look around, we are surrounded by something, we are something - something exists, and has always existed... change from one form to another, but does not blink in and out of existence. People understand what no end means, but do not understand what "no beginning" means.... there was never a time of nothingness...
cut-n-paste
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
Think about it - either
God IS perfect - and did not create us 100% out of nothingness,
or
He is not perfect, as evidenced by us...
Free will only exists if we are self-existent...
God is perfect only if part of us is self-existent.... and not His creation...
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
The potter did not create the clay... but we can become His creation... He will not take away our free will though...
Rom 8:
15 For ye have not received the spirit of abondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
John 1:
1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
It does not say God was alone, nor does it say He made everything... IF it was made, He made it... however, not everything is "made" ...
read Gen again... does not say created man - formed him, then placed a spirit in - breathed in life - not created it, placed it in...
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Eccl. 12:7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
Return means we have been there before
Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee
Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
Eph. 1:4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
Our life did not start with our birth here on Earth
Eph. 1:4 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
Eph. 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself
2 Thes. 2:13 God hath from the beginning chosen you
2 Tim. 1:9 called us ... before the world began
1 Pet. 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God
1 Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world
Beginning in the absolute sense of the word does not exist. There is no such thing as beginning.
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ralphSpoilsport
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"Justify"? I don't know that existance needs justification.
Atheists have this saying:
"I don't know".
We use it when we don't know the answer to something instead of assuming an invisible supernatural being is responsible. Many atheists rely on reason, logic and scientific investigation to find answers instead of relying on invisible supernatural beings.
Why surely?
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Corey
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ALso...
The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false, or that it is false because it has not been proven true. He adds, A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953) Emphasis added.
The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false, or that it is false because it has not been proven true. He adds, A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953) Emphasis added.
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Atheism to me is not at all Logical... and GOD is an eternal being, no beginning, no end!
Love in Jesus!
Love in Jesus!
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Sounds like a personal problem. Sounds like logic isn't a key element in what you're saying in the first place.
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And who created the strings? Who created quantum physics? Who determined how the strings came together to create a vast universe? How can something come from nothing? Who controls the forces of nature? Who knows the purpose for our creation? What man can claim he knows everything there is to know? Don't you see that science will never be able to answer all the questions? How was Christ able to be physically reserected? How does science or evolution explain how life was created? Who can tell me how the earth just so happend to be the perfect distance from the sun and have the right amounts of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, and other elements that make life on Earth possible? Was all of this just due to some random chance? You'd have to be crazy to think it just happend without some sort of divine guidance. In fact, I find it highly illogical that someone could be 100% sure that God doesn't exist.
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I think Plato's allegory of the cave fits well for those so convinced that God doesn't exist.
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Did you miss the part that said go away?
Seriously, though, I have no problem saying that the multiverse (if we're going to use the term) has simply always existed. Beyond that, all is occurance without agency. Our very best investigations so far indicate no need for a god, and it doesn't look like they will any time soon. And I don't believe that there is such a thing as an objective purpose, and I don't believe that Christ was resurrected. Long story short, you're going to have to do better than an argument from incredulity to convince intelligent people who don't already agree with you.
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lol. so do you care to answer any of the questions I posted? do you think we came to exist by random chance? To me and most logical thinkers, that seems highly unlikely. I'd argue that a much more logical conclusion is that a divine power having influence in the creation of the universe and everything in it. Heck, even Einstien acknowledged that God didn't roll dice in regards to quantum physics. It's seems awful foolish to totally dismiss God when we will never know all there is to know about everything that exists. We have limits to what we can know. There will always be questions that science can't answer and only a fool would think otherwise.
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ArchaicTruth
Ridiculously reasonable, or reasonably ridiculous
sorry, but Recovering Philosophers reply concerning the string and m theory have already shot this reply forcibly in the face. Thanks for playing though.
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The question is: "Is atheism logical?"
Two questions to each of you:
Can you define a criterion that indicates that something is illogical?
Are you logical for not believing in the Egyptian gods?
If you answer yes to these questions, atheism is logical.
If you answer no to the first question, you cannot ask the original question as you cannot distinguish between logical and illogical.
Two questions to each of you:
Can you define a criterion that indicates that something is illogical?
Are you logical for not believing in the Egyptian gods?
If you answer yes to these questions, atheism is logical.
If you answer no to the first question, you cannot ask the original question as you cannot distinguish between logical and illogical.
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Wiccan_Child
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Is atheism logical? Yes, insofar as the logical stance to take on the existance of anything in the absence of evidence or rationale one way or the other is "I don't know".
Atheism is not a stance that attempts to explain anything, so posing these difficult questions to atheism is only going to garner a shrug.
Atheists, by and large, look to science for explanations, not ad hoc spirituality. Since science has yet to offer an explanation for the hard questions, it follows that most atheists have yet to devise an answer.
Besides, I daresay that no theist (myself included) is able to answer all the questions posed by the OP. I'm content to shruging.
Atheism is not a stance that attempts to explain anything, so posing these difficult questions to atheism is only going to garner a shrug.
Atheists, by and large, look to science for explanations, not ad hoc spirituality. Since science has yet to offer an explanation for the hard questions, it follows that most atheists have yet to devise an answer.
Besides, I daresay that no theist (myself included) is able to answer all the questions posed by the OP. I'm content to shruging.
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