Please forgive if this comes off as a foolish question.

[Pythons]

Posted a question in the progressive form about the main difference between the Traditional and Progressive SDA belief.

Do both, one or neither believe in the Trinity?

 

[happywiththelord]

yes, traditional SDA's believe in the Trinity.

 

[Pythons]

Thanks, I get the feeling that the other ones do not based from the answer I got. Trying to figure out which end is up with this.

 

[RND]

Thanks, I get the feeling that the other ones do not based from the answer I got. Trying to figure out which end is up with this.

I think a good question in answering this question is: Which trinity?

Mark 1:9 ¶
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Mark 1:10
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Mark 1:11
And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. The Godhead.

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

 

[capnator]

I think most SDA's believe in the trinity.. it's one of the Fundamental beliefs.

There are some who don't hold to this doctrine though.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Pythons, welcome to our forum and thank you for your question.
Just as RND said, I too prefer the term "Godhead" over trinity. My personal reason is because the bible never uses the term trinity , but instead says Godhead. But from scripture, we understand that there are three in heaven that co-exist in unison and love.

Also for me personally, I think the Godhead is a very hard thing for humans to comprehend. I know I have wrestled with it for years. We know that the I AM is spirit and for the most part, the things of the spirit are near impossible for we mortals to grasp. So I'll step aside and let those smarter than me explain it--lol.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Pythons, and this is why if you really want to know what SDA's OFFICIAL stand on doctrine is, you must come to the traditional sub-forum or the main forum for your answers.

There is much confusion about the SDA doctrines in the progressive area as you have indicated.

In addition to the Godhead issue, we and the progressives differ widely on our theology. This is why this forum is split as it is. I for one have always advocated a complete split from association from this faction for the very reason you have stated. How are those outside the SDA church to know what we really stand for when such a forum exists?

Here is the official Seventh-day Adventist web site where you can learn all about our beliefs. Hope you find a blessing there.

http://www.adventist.org

 

[Mankin]

Yes Progs believe in the trinity. It is with some of the Fundmental doctrines exclusive to the SDA church that we have a problem with. Anyway, Progressives do believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Pythons, and this is why if you really want to know what SDA's OFFICIAL stand on doctrine is, you must come to the traditional sub-forum or the main forum for your answers.

There is much confusion about the SDA doctrines in the progressive area as you have indicated.

Actually when Pythons asked the question http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43759781&postcount=54
aside from Senti who said you can't cubbyhole Progressives the other answers were from Traditionalists Honor and RND. So the confusion there if it exists is from Traditionalists answers. At least until I answered the question.

Just wanted to say that so we don't have new people even more confused then necessary.

 

[Pythons]

Ok, what is the difference between Godhead and Trinity? As for the Bible not using the actual term Trinity the same thing can be said about investigative judgement. Correct?

 

[RND]

Ok, what is the difference between Godhead and Trinity?

There is no difference provided the usage of "trinity" is referring to the nature of the Godhead.

As for the Bible not using the actual term Trinity the same thing can be said about investigative judgement. Correct?

Correct. Although the specific concepts are considerablly different.

 

[Pythons]

There is no difference provided the usage of "trinity" is referring to the nature of the Godhead.



Correct. Although the specific concepts are considerablly different.

The Doctrine of the Godhead is more then just the nature of it and your use of "provided" clearly shows there is something different about the SDA Godhead compared to the Catholic one.

You can just spit out what it is you dont' agree with about Catholicism whereas the Trinity (Godhead) is concerned or I will engineer questions and extract it from you. Is it the "substance" of the Godhead you do not agree with?

 

[RND]

The Doctrine of the Godhead is more then just the nature of it and your use of "provided" clearly shows there is something different about the SDA Godhead compared to the Catholic one.

Correct. The SDA Godhead does not include Mary as the "Queen of Heaven." Of course, you have been provided a few links and ample description of the SDA doctrine from the official conference position.

It appears you've ignored this because with what you have been given to disgest there should be no question. The "Godhead" is the "trinity" provided the "trinity" in discussion agrees with the stated position.

You can just spit out what it is you dont' agree with about Catholicism whereas the Trinity (Godhead) is concerned or I will engineer questions and extract it from you. Is it the "substance" of the Godhead you do not agree with?

I agree with the "substance" of the Godhead quite nicely. That "substance" or more properly "nature" consists of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

If your "trinity" agrees with that nature then we are on the same page. If your "trinity" disagrees with that nature then we are not on the same page.

 

[Pythons]

Correct. The SDA Godhead does not include Mary as the "Queen of Heaven." Of course, you have been provided a few links and ample description of the SDA doctrine from the official conference position.

It appears you've ignored this because with what you have been given to disgest there should be no question. The "Godhead" is the "trinity" provided the "trinity" in discussion agrees with the stated position.



I agree with the "substance" of the Godhead quite nicely. That "substance" or more properly "nature" consists of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

If your "trinity" agrees with that nature then we are on the same page. If your "trinity" disagrees with that nature then we are not on the same page.

The Trinity of Catholicism does not include Mary, RND, and as a veteran of this forum you certainly know that. I have read the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists web section on this topic as well.

So, you would agree that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all of the same "substance" or nature (made of whatever it is that is beyond our understanding)?

My understanding of the Trinity is that in God there are Three persons, The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the three Persons possesses the ONE Divine substance or Essence and Person refer to the three owners or bearers of the Divine Being.

Are we still on the same page? This is the most important doctrine of Christianity so, if there is any difference between how you understand it, now is the time to sort it out. After that we can get down to where the rubber meets the road.

As for Mary:

"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with The Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (GOD) should come to me. Luke1,41,42,43

If A = B and B = C then A = C. Mary is the Mother of God. I would be happy to go into Mary later as she would be down the list of importance a ways from the Trinity.

 

[RND]

The Trinity of Catholicism does not include Mary, RND, and as a veteran of this forum you certainly know that. I have read the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists web section on this topic as well.

So, you would agree that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all of the same "substance" or nature (made of whatever it is that is beyond our understanding)?

My understanding of the Trinity is that in God there are Three persons, The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the three Persons possesses the ONE Divine substance or Essence and Person refer to the three owners or bearers of the Divine Being.

Are we still on the same page? This is the most important doctrine of Christianity so, if there is any difference between how you understand it, now is the time to sort it out. After that we can get down to where the rubber meets the road.

You found us out. Finally!

As for Mary:

"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with The Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (GOD) should come to me. Luke1,41,42,43

If A = B and B = C then A = C. Mary is the Mother of God. I would be happy to go into Mary later as she would be down the list of importance a ways from the Trinity.

If Jesus existed and was with the Father before Mary how is Mary the Mother of God? Mary is the mother of Jesus in human form.

Mary was not Jesus' mother before she existed.

BTW, just out of curiosity in your "A = B and B = C then A = C" scenario, what is A, what is B and what is C?

 

[Pythons]

It's ok RND, we can work on your Nestorian beliefs. It's just important that prior to each of us typing up a storm that we understand where we are similar and establish the areas we are not.

You asked;

"If Jesus existed and was with the Father before Mary how is Mary the Mother of God? Mary is the mother of Jesus in human form."

That's easy RND;

"AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US; WE HAVE BEHELD HIS GLORY, GLORY AS OF THE THE ONLY SON FROM THE FATHER". John 1,14

The Bible clearly tells us that the Word "did not" unite with man, the Word was "MADE MAN". Therefore Mary is the Mother of Jesus who is 100% man and 100% God. This is part of the Trinity RND, or Godhead, if you would rather use that term.

Now, onto the a,b,c lesson

If Jesus is God (A)as the Scriptures say and Mary is the Mother of Jesus (B)_ then Mary is the Mother of God (C). = Jesus is God and who is His Mother?

To deny this is to devalue Christ which is exactly where every heresy in history started. This is exactly why Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of God and exactly why I asked if you could say the same thing.

 

[RND]

It's ok RND, we can work on your Nestorian beliefs. It's just important that prior to each of us typing up a storm that we understand where we are similar and establish the areas we are not.

You asked;

"If Jesus existed and was with the Father before Mary how is Mary the Mother of God? Mary is the mother of Jesus in human form."

That's easy RND;

"AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US; WE HAVE BEHELD HIS GLORY, GLORY AS OF THE THE ONLY SON FROM THE FATHER". John 1,14

The Bible clearly tells us that the Word "did not" unite with man, the Word was "MADE MAN". Therefore Mary is the Mother of Jesus who is 100% man and 100% God. This is part of the Trinity RND, or Godhead, if you would rather use that term.

Yes, I understand all your saying. My point was that Mary isn't the mother of God in the sense that she had anything to do with the existence of Jesus prior to His becoming flesh.

Jesus existed, was with the Father and is creator of all. He "created" Mary before Mary had any part of being Jesus' mother. King David had no problem with this concept. Mary was Jesus' "earthly" mother, not His "heavenly" mother.

Mar 12:35 ¶
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

Mar 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mar 12:37
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Now, onto the a,b,c lesson

If Jesus is God (A)as the Scriptures say and Mary is the Mother of Jesus (B)_ then Mary is the Mother of God (C). = Jesus is God and who is His Mother?

A sinful human.

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Dan 9:11
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

To deny this is to devalue Christ which is exactly where every heresy in history started. This is exactly why Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of God and exactly why I asked if you could say the same thing.

I would say the opposite obviously. To say Mary is a god, especially when there is nothing in scripture suggesting such a notion, devalues Jesus and lessens His ministry by essentially saying, "He couldn't have done it without her."

But I do thank you for expressing your opinion.

You mentioned earlier that you do not consider the "trinity" to involve Mary. But clearly you think Mary is a god. So therefore, using your same circular reasoning in you a=b scenario, she must be part of Catholic trinity and therefore a god.

The idea that Mary was the mother of the second person of the Trinity is difficult at best to accept in anyway simply because Jesus existed before Mary. The same Jesus that appeared to man in the flesh is the same Jesus that was with the Father before Mary.

The pagan origin of the Trinity-

The so called 'Christian-Trinity'

The Roman Catholics continued the pagan trinity in their churches. And in this church the 'woman-and-child-worshipping' still continues. Also we know the Catholic Trinity, being: The Father God, Mother Mary and the Son; an exact copy of the pagan trinity.

And we all know that Mary -the Mother of Jesus- is not a Goddess at all.

The Protestant-churches have continued the pagan work of the Roman Catholic Church and extracted a more biblical 'Trinity' from the pagan Catholic trinity. But still neither our Holy Bible nor the Apostles, nor Jesus speak of 'a trinity'. Still the Protestants make 'a trinity-god-in-one' from God (The Father), The Son (Jesus) and the Spirit of God. In the pagan-trinity the Spirit is 'Semiramis', the Son is 'Tammuz' and the Father is 'Baal'.

From a biblical point of view it is evident, that Jesus and God are not 'one-and-the-same-God'at all ! The Bible speaks of 'the Eternal Father' and the 'only begotten Son' created by the Father. And the Bible goes on by telling, that Jesus was made equal in appearance to God, but Jesus layed down his equality to the Father to go to Earth as 'fruit of the Holy Spirit'(Matthew 1:20) to be born from the human Mary to save the world from Sin.

And the Bible continues in telling us that Jesus sacrificed his life according to the will of God. And because of this sacrifice Jesus would receive the highest honour of God and Jesus was given the title 'Lord' by God. Also Jesus will be sitting at the right site of God on the thrown from that moment on.


God testifies of the Son, the Son testifies of the Father !
God himself testifies in Matthew (after Jesus was baptised) and Mark (on the mountain with the clouth covering them) that 'Jesus is His Son'.

Jesus testifies that God is His Father in heaven; that all power was given to him by his Father and that he is our Highpriest in heaven, chosen by God and annointed by God with His Holy Spirit. And that is exactly what 'Messias' or 'Christ' means! God appointing, chosing and annointing a person for a special task: a holy sacrifice. Jesus is the Lamb of God.

Also the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 15:28, that Jesus will give back his received power from the Father and so God will live in all of us. ('And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son Himself also be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. ')

So from the Bible we can be assured, that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not 'one -and-the-same', but that they are in fact seperately existing and working persons. With different tasks.

Jesus left the Holy Spirit behind before He went to Heaven. And the Spirit is our Comforter; advisor en guidesman. Jesus is in Heaven preparing a place for us there and preparing the comming Judgement. After this Judgement Day Jesus will return to Heaven with His People and He will give back His given powers to God; His eternal Father.

The Trinity: a pagan doctrine!
Neither the Bible, nor Jesus or the Apostles talk of a Trinity; and that is easy to explain: because it is not a biblical or christian basis. As you know now: the Trinity came from a pagan-basis.

We owe it to the Catholic Church that churchmembers are in fact celibrating days in honour of pagan gods; these gods were even declared 'saints' by the same Roman Church!

For example:the keeping of Sunday; Sunday is the day in honour of Balder (also known as: the pagan trinity Isis, Horus, Seth).
For example: Christmas. These days are in honour of Baäl; (Winter-Solstice ; again sungod-worshipping.)
For example: 'midsummer-feast' - 14th of June: This is the Summer-Solstice in honour of the pagan God Tammuz. The Son of Baal.

For example: 7th of October; The feast of Saint Dionysses en 'his two Saint-friends', which are in fact not friends, but titles of Dionysses; also known as Baal. het feest ter ere van St. Bacchus of 9 oktober de feestdag ter ere van St. Dionysses en zijn twee "St-vrienden" die overigens geen personen zijn, maar titels van Dionysses.

For example: Easter (from Astarte!). As well as the date, 'the eggs' or 'oranges' or 'pine-apples' have nothing to do with the Hebrew 'Pascha' or 'Passover'. Easter comes from the name of Astarte; The Goddess and wife of Baal. The fable of Astarte tells us, 'that the egg was floating on the water'. And Astarte was born from this egg. This 'egg' however is a Chaldean translation of the Hebrew word 'Arc' and is all about the Arc of Noah; not about Astarte! In Chaldean the word 'Arc' means 'Egg'.
And in this way a story was fabricated, that Astarte was born from an egg that floated on the water. And this day is kept holy by our Catholic Church and all Christian followers in other churches... Paganism in action.

The mother and Child has been worshipped since the ancient days of Babylon, Egypt and India.

 

[Pythons]

I don't think Mary had anything to do with Jesus prior to the incarnation either. I'm very certain Catholicism says nothing of the kind so I'm wondering why you would bring this up as it's not a Catholic belief?

Catholicism has never taught Mary is a god either? If you want to take issue with Catholic teaching then use quotes of it to demonstrate your position.

Mary's only purpose with this current discussion is to show that Jesus is God (not that Mary is god). If your only problem is saying Mary is the Mother of the second Person of the Godhead then I can accept that provided you don't try to split Christ into two parts which is where I'm guessing you are going next.

You led me to believe that you accepted the Trinity. I'm just making sure you have not poured a new meaning into the term.

I'm looking forward to dealing with your paganism issues with the Church however at this time we need to find out where you get off the bus.

 

[RND]

I don't think Mary had anything to do with Jesus prior to the incarnation either. I'm very certain Catholicism says nothing of the kind so I'm wondering why you would bring this up as it's not a Catholic belief?

Catholicism has never taught Mary is a god either? If you want to take issue with Catholic teaching then use quotes of it to demonstrate your position.

You plainly suggested in your a=b scenario that Mary was a god.

Now, onto the a,b,c lesson

If Jesus is God (A)as the Scriptures say and Mary is the Mother of Jesus (B)_ then Mary is the Mother of God (C). = Jesus is God and who is His Mother?

Mary's only purpose with this current discussion is to show that Jesus is God (not that Mary is god). If your only problem is saying Mary is the Mother of the second Person of the Godhead then I can accept that provided you don't try to split Christ into two parts which is where I'm guessing you are going next.

But see, that's the point I'm trying to suggest in that it is Catholicism that treaches and believes that Mary is the mother of the second person of the trinity. That's part of the rosary. But plainly Mary isn't the mother of the second nature of the trinity because Jesus existed before Mary did. Mary was mother of Jesus' human nature. His Godhead nature and status preceeded Him and was immediately part of His nature as a human.

Catholicism denies this by saying Mary was the mother of this nature. She was not.

You led me to believe that you accepted the Trinity. I'm just making sure you have not poured a new meaning into the term.

I believe that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three distinct and separate beings that are part of the singular family of God.

I'm looking forward to dealing with your paganism issues with the Church however at this time we need to find out where you get off the bus.

I was never on the "Catholic" bus fortunately. The Catholic view of Mary is directly associated with the ancient paganism of the Babylonians and blended with Zoroastrianism.

"Since the holy Virgin brought forth corporally God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh." (Council of Ephesus, 431 A.D.)

"The cult of the Mother Goddess entered the Christian Church in typically Christian categories, such as the Ecclesia [church], represented as the spiritual mother of Christians, or as "the Second Eve," whose divine motherhood is responsible for mankind's rebirth. It was through such Christian concepts that the idea of the divine feminine took root in Christianity, and it was a long and often confusing process until Mary was declared to be the Mother of God. But it is the primordial mystery of generation and childbirth, the appearance of life, and the age-old belief that motherhood is part of a cosmic order upon which both the pagan and the Christian versions of the cult of the theotokos ["God bearer", i.e., "Mother of God", Council of Ephesus, 431 A.D.] rest. This reverence for motherhood and childbirth is the basic principle of Mariology, a principle which Christianity inherited from its pagan forerunners." - Stephen Benko (1993) The Virgin Goddess: Studies in the pagan and Christian roots of Mariology. Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 5

Romanism substitutes Mary for Christ

 

[reddogs]

Pythons,

Questions in the Traditional Seventh-day Adventists by non-members are allowed but anything which may lead to debate or beyond that by a non-member it is better to take to the Discussion and Debate Sub-forum which is for that specific purpose or the Main SDA Forum........

Thanks...
Red
Seventh-Day Adventist Forum Moderator