How exactly does the Vatican justify it's wealth?

[Renton405]

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[Rebekka]

Hmph. A lot of the monumental buildings the church owns can't be sold - so the church can't use the money to help the poor (by the way, as has been mentioned, the catholic church is the biggest charity in the world). To whom can you sell St Peters?

My church is nearly bankrupt - they can't even afford to restore their beautiful monumental 14th-century cathedral. That's actually quite common over here. They're thinking of asking non-religious for money because, contrary to what I read in this thread, it seems that many atheists are rather attached to those old beautiful church buildings. Well, they can look at them, but then they might as well pay for the work that is needed to preserve them.

Also, I think the 10% tithe is mainly a protestant thing. I know we don't pay 10% and I know no catholic church who asks it of its parishioners.

It's a false dilemma presented in this thread. Feeding the poor is important. That doesn't mean that preserving works of art and culture isn't important. The church has many works of art, but that doesn't mean that they can use that money (who will buy the works of art? Can you afford them? If you can, then isn't it your duty to feed the poor with that money?), and besides, as I've said, the church already has lots of charities.

My life would be poorer, aesthetically speaking, if all the catholic riches were destroyed because it's immoral. We had that in the 16th and 17th century over here. It's still visible in our formerly catholic now protestant churches. They used to be beautiful, now they're just plain and empty because all the statues and other works of art were destroyed by protestant.

I don't see how it's an either/or situation. The church should feed the poor, but that doesn't mean she has to get rid of all that is beautiful.

 

[beechy]

You made a post suggesting that only Christians help the homeless. I think you're wrong about that. Not all organizations which help the homeless are faith-based -- some are secular (see the list below). I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the orgs I listed are not "affiliated" with atheism or secularism. Atheists simply don't believe in God, and generally do not have an organized religion devoted to that non-belief (although, of course, I'm sure there are exceptions ... the world's a big place ). Secularism is the absence of overt or specific religious affiliation. Did I miss the "We Are Run by the Catholic Church" pages in those sites?

As for your laundry list of Christian organizations, I am fully aware that they exist and think many of them are doing good, compassionate work -- but I don't see how that's relevant to your implication that there is no such thing as an atheist who has helped or is interested in helping those less fortunate. If you need an individual's name, I've got one for ya: Bill Gates. And another: Warren Buffet. These guys have teamed up to form a little foundation you may have heard of, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (ok, maybe not so little -- actually, it is the largest charitable foundation in the world). Actually, there is some evidence that either or both of these guys may more accurately described as agnostic ... but they're decidedly not Christian.

American Family Housing in San Bernardino County, CA
Rosie's Place for homeless women in Boston
People Serving People in Minneapolis
Atlanta Children's Shelter ... in Atlanta, of course
Crossroads in Oakland, CA (this one is green ... very cool)
Emmaus Inc. in Boston
Homeward Bound in Grand Junction, CO
Stockton Shelter for the Homeless in Stockton, CA
Twin Oaks Shelter for the Homeless in Delavan, WI

Thats very nice, but none of those are affiliated with atheism or secularism either. In fact I bet many of those places direct the homeless to churches and AA for extra help also.

Either way lets make a comparison

• Salvation Army (27)
  dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Salvation_Army
• Church World Service (2)
  dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Church_World_Service
• Bread for the World
  Citizens' movement seeking justice for the world's hungry people by lobbying our nation's decision makers.
  www.bread.org
• World Vision International@
• Etc. .....
  

 

[FaithLikeARock]

The rest of it is what, then? Do they own IBM?

Seriously now, you did the whole sarcasm thing, so where is the wealth?

Art and architecture are temporary possesions and possesions no matter how valuable should NEVER be put before people.

Matthew 24:2 - And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

[FaithLikeARock]

it seems you do not know much about the history of Architecture. its not like the Vatican bought all of those things at once, it accumulated over time from the begnining of Christ till now.

By the way. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest organizations that house and feed the homeless. Read on the St. Vincents fund. Nearly every Basillica and Cathedral has a food shelf and shelter for the homeless. And don't forget how many monastarys hid and sheltered the Jews in WWII..

have atheists ever done these things?

I suggest you knock on every mueseum and tell them to take down all their art and statue. Be sure to email every one.

Out of curiosity, have YOU ever lent to the homeless?? fed the poor?

Why should he tell you that? And why does the Roman Catholic Church brag about this help? You shouldn't be helping people just to tell, which considering what the Roman Catholic Church does have, that's all it is is a show. The answer shouldn't be "What I HAVE done" it should be "What HAVEN'T I done", because obviously, the Roman Catholic Church hasn't done as much as they can.

 

[Avatar]

Art and architecture are temporary possesions and possesions no matter how valuable should NEVER be put before people.

So you have no posessions then, right?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

So you have no posessions then, right?

Of course I do. But I don't try to justify them by saying they're "valuable". They're possessions and I'm sadly and pathetically addicted to them. However, there is a difference between need and want. You need food. However the Vatican doesn't need that art. They could easily sell it to the government but the church should have NO take it it.

 

[Avatar]

Of course I do. But I don't try to justify them by saying they're "valuable". They're possessions and I'm sadly and pathetically addicted to them. However, there is a difference between need and want. You need food. However the Vatican doesn't need that art. They could easily sell it to the government but the church should have NO take it it.

Hmmm. Then the government would own it. Wouldn't they be just as obligated to sell it to help the poor?

 

[stan1980]

Hmmm. Then the government would own it. Wouldn't they be just as obligated to sell it to help the poor?

No, the government's primary responsibility is to their own people, which may mean keeping these places open for the good of the economy (revenues on tourism etc). Governments by their very
nature are xenophobic, while the church, if it is acting on behalf of god, has a duty to every man on earth.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Hmmm. Then the government would own it. Wouldn't they be just as obligated to sell it to help the poor?

The government does. It's called welfare. It's where they give money earned through taxes to needing families. A good government spends only a minimal amount of money and fixing up anything man made unless it's truly necessary, something like a shelter.

 

[Renton405]

The government does. It's called welfare. It's where they give money earned through taxes to needing families. A good government spends only a minimal amount of money and fixing up anything man made unless it's truly necessary, something like a shelter.

Most shelters now are faith based, and the Catholic Churches house an extreme amount of homeless people in their monastarys. You can't really criticize the church for not helping, because they have helped much more than any secular government or sect. Many of the homeless people I see go to the Cathedral and basillica when they need food and shelter. And thats where they PREFER to go..Any person who has had experience with the homeless would obviously know this..

how much you wanna bet that these people criticizing have not even been on a missions trip to help the poor.

Secondly if the vatican sold everything it had, It would hurt the economy in the long run which would cause more people to be poor. Art requires an artist, a statue a sculpture, a building; construction workers. You want people to lose their jobs?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Most shelters now are faith based, and the Catholic Churches house an extreme amount of homeless people in their monastarys. You can't really criticize the church for not helping, because they have helped much more than any secular government or sect. Many of the homeless people I see go to the Cathedral and basillica when they need food and shelter. And thats where they PREFER to go..Any person who has had experience with the homeless would obviously know this..

how much you wanna bet that these people criticizing have not even been on a missions trip to help the poor.

Secondly if the vatican sold everything it had, It would hurt the economy in the long run which would cause more people to be poor. Art requires an artist, a statue a sculpture, a building; construction workers. You want people to lose their jobs?

There you go bragging again. Most of said art the artist is long gone. Artists can still paint but the church should have nothing to do with it. They shouldn't be considering spending thousands of dollars to maintain art and architecture. That's not their job! The church is trying to take up jobs that they're warned about in the Bible they pretend to cherish while ignoring their actual job.

You shouldn't HAVE to say "WELL LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE DONE". It should be obvious. You shouldn't have to say anything or expecting any mercy because doing good doesn't give you special privelages. You're supposed to. It's commanded by God. Stop trying to justify your vanity with good deeds and remember the women and the two coins.

Mark 12:41-44

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 12:41-44; Luke 21:1-4&version=50#fen-NKJV-24710awhich make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”


The church represents those rich, who put in some but not all. In fact, most Christians are this way. Sadly, I am included. However it seems some don't even have the courage to admit it and instead try to justify what they don't give by bragging and boasting about what they do. How shameful. While you are out there trying to condemn what are essentially minor, controversial sins, you aren't even willing to admit your own!

I suggest before you start another thread trying to point the finger at anyone for the problems in the world today, you relook your priorities because right now, I'm not impressed. God doesn't care about art. He doesn't care about possessions. Maybe you should start thinking about what God cares about.

 

[stan1980]

You really need to grow up. This post in the OP was attacking how the Vatican dosen't help the poor. It is obviously wrong because the Church helps the poor more often than most. That is what I was implying.

I wont deny the church helps people, but the simple fact of the matter is how do they justify all those expensive buildings, museums and artwork throughout the world. Why does the holy need material possessions?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

You really need to grow up. This post in the OP was attacking how the Vatican dosen't help the poor. It is obviously wrong because the Church helps the poor more often than most. That is what I was implying. You and others are obviously ignorant of the Church and don't know much about it, or its involvement with the poor, so I have to correct you because of this OPs ignorance. In fact if people actually read more about the Apostolic Church, they would see that the Vatican isn't as rich as people think it is. If you think the Vatican is some super rich organization then you are watching too many movies. You should try to read what I say instead of going on a tangent of self righteouness telling others to "think more about what God cares about". As if you really knew.. Seriously, all your posts bleed self righteousness and you need to humble yourself for once. Like I said if your so concerned, go on a missions trip to africa. You can leave your vain lifestyle for a missions trip, correct?

No it's not. The title doesn't say "How does the Vatican justify not helping people", it asks how it justifies it's wealth.

Also...irony. Don't talk like you know me Renton, because the fact you'd assume I don't help proves you'll do anything to defame someone if it'll make your point.

 

[beechy]

Secondly if the vatican sold everything it had, It would hurt the economy in the long run which would cause more people to be poor. Art requires an artist, a statue a sculpture, a building; construction workers. You want people to lose their jobs?

I don't understand .... If the church sold a piece of artwork it would hurt the artist who rendered it?

 

[beechy]

You really need to grow up. This post in the OP was attacking how the Vatican dosen't help the poor. It is obviously wrong because the Church helps the poor more often than most. That is what I was implying. You and others are obviously ignorant of the Church and don't know much about it, or its involvement with the poor, so I have to correct you because of this OPs ignorance. In fact if people actually read more about the Apostolic Church, they would see that the Vatican isn't as rich as people think it is. If you think the Vatican is some super rich organization then you are watching too many movies. You should try to read what I say instead of going on a tangent of self righteouness telling others to "think more about what God cares about". As if you really knew.. Seriously, all your posts bleed self righteousness and you need to humble yourself for once. Like I said if your so concerned, go on a missions trip to africa. You can leave your vain lifestyle for a missions trip, correct?

So if you're able to show that you use some (or even a lot) of your money to help the poor, then it is ok to also accumulate additional vast amounts of wealth which you do not use to help the poor?

 

[Morcova]

As for your laundry list of Christian organizations, I am fully aware that they exist and think many of them are doing good, compassionate work -- but I don't see how that's relevant to your implication that there is no such thing as an atheist who has helped or is interested in helping those less fortunate.

It's called moving the goal posts.

 

[Rebekka]

So if you're able to show that you use some (or even a lot) of your money to help the poor, then it is ok to also accumulate additional vast amounts of wealth which you do not use to help the poor?

Wasn't Bill Gates mentioned as an example of an admirable secular person who donated much to charity?

 

[Morcova]

I don't understand .... If the church sold a piece of artwork it would hurt the artist who rendered it?

The church would no longer have the pretty bauble to show off, it would hurt the church's PRIDE.

 

[talkingmonkey]

Have the church sell the art to the government, then the government sell it to the mafia, then the mafia sell it to private collectors for millions!

Then the mafia can give the money to poor people and make a good name for themselves.

Sounds pretty snazzy to me!