How exactly does the Vatican justify it's wealth?

[stan1980]

They can't raise the 4 million it costs just to prevent it from falling to pieces.

Well that is a sick amount of money. I'm sure it would cost a fraction of the money to build something more modest.

 

[MissBabylon]

Well that is a sick amount of money. I'm sure it would cost a fraction of the money to build something more modest.

Good grief. It's a 14th-century gothic cathedral. Yes, let's tear it down and build a boring more modest building.

 

[stan1980]

Good grief. It's a 14th-century gothic cathedral. Yes, let's tear it down and build a boring more modest building.

Why not? Would God rather see $4m spent on restoring a building or would he rather the money spent on:

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Go gather it up and take it back then. Muslim, page one, agreed with me.




Ah. Another person without personal posessions. Another person who wants to see the museums of the world sell off their holdings.



Lol. Yep I worship paintings, how did you know?

Oh yeah, because that's complete agreement. /sarcasm

Wrong. As I've admitted several times, I am not without possessions. I also don't try to hide or cover up the fact that I have them. It's one of my many convictions and I'm not going to try to justify having nice things as okay. It's not okay.

Don't laugh. You obviously only hold the Bible to verses that don't apply to you. The world worships idols, oh except you right? You're a good boy right? Idols aren't "I worship this". It's anything that comes above God and God's mission. And unfortunately, you're putting the weight of what is ironically plated in gold above God's work. It's a painting. There's nothing holy about it. You can burn it in a fire for all I care. But no. Oh it's worth so much money blah blah blah, please.

Also, 4 million? Wow. THAT makes it a lot better. The church is so extravagant that the church can't even afford to keep it up. If that isn't a symbol that it's WAY too expensive than obviously they've already fallen to the point of no return. No possession is worth spending THAT much money on.

And before you start pointing fingers AGAIN at anyone, trying to push the blame over on another group, sweeping it under the carpet if you will, this is about the church. KEEP IT that way. Don't go "Well look at how THIS religion does it". I don't care. We're not talking about them

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Why not? Would God rather see $4m spent on restoring a building or would he rather the money spent on:

Stan, I love you (brotherly) and I know you're trying to make a point, but those are dramatized and manipulated pictures. My church has brought back pictures of poverty-stricken places and children who are malnourished don't look like that. Most of the time they actually look bloated. Those pictures are playing on emotion in the worst ways and I find that very inappropriate. They are plenty of picture of children living in poverty that aren't over dramatized and faked. It really makes me sick just looking at them, and I'm not the one they're directed at. That's the effect they're meant to have and they're no better than some of the beefed up pictures anti-abortion clinics use.

 

[stan1980]

Good grief. It's a 14th-century gothic cathedral. Yes, let's tear it down and build a boring more modest building.

That actually makes me want to vomit. Sums it all up.

*disgusted*

 

[stan1980]

Stan, I love you (brotherly) and I know you're trying to make a point, but those are dramatized and manipulated pictures. My church has brought back pictures of poverty-stricken places and children who are malnourished don't look like that. Most of the time they actually look bloated. Those pictures are playing on emotion in the worst ways and I find that very inappropriate. They are plenty of picture of children living in poverty that aren't over dramatized and faked. It really makes me sick just looking at them, and I'm not the one they're directed at. That's the effect they're meant to have and they're no better than some of the beefed up pictures anti-abortion clinics use.

The images are harsh, but millions of children are going without food. I make no apologies, as i think we all need a wake up call. Would you let this go on in your own country? no, so why let this go on anywhere?

 

[Avatar]

Why not? Would God rather see $4m spent on restoring a building or would he rather the money spent on:

Exactly what is the matter with you? Your nation alone could eliminate the poverty in Africa, overnight. You are affluent and your government is elected. Your government finances itself through taxes. Taxes could very easily be raised enough to end starvation in Africa. And none of you would starve. Ain't happening though, and you're not complaining about it.

What about the holdings of the monarchy? Why not sell the crown jewels or Buckingham palace?

The Catholic church does far more worldwide for the poor than your nation. Talk to me when you take the log out of your eye.

 

[beechy]

Well, if they're so wealthy, then why don't they have the money to restore their own churches? Mine, for example? They can't raise the 4 million it costs just to prevent it from falling to pieces.

As I said, they're not accumulating.

I don't know why they've let your church fall to pieces. I don't understand the international symbiosis or operation of Roman Catholic Church finances, but maybe the powers that be are mindful that they may have to come up with more payoff for U.S. sex scandal settlements (which have already been in the hundreds of millions), so they're going to syphon money in that direction rather to your ailing structure. In any case, the idea that the church only maintains historic, museum quality treasures as assets is simply incorrect. Here's a list of some church owned property in the Boston. I guess "historic treasures" are in the eye of the beholder, but I find it hard to suspend my disbelief that apartment buildings, vacant lots, and recreational land are being preserved for posterity ... Again, I don't know a ton about the Catholic church and am open to learning, but it does seem clear to me that the church maintains a lot of non-historic real estate assets.

And to answer your question - which I already did - yes, to a degree I think it's OK to have possessions. As I said, I'm not a communist. Don't know about you, but I'm not. If you want to help the poor, use your own money to do it.

I understand that you believe it is ok to have possessions. Like a shirt and pair of pants, perhaps. Do you think it is ok to have possessions like a $65 million dollar mansion and 10 luxury cars, so long as you also give to the poor?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

The images are harsh, but millions of children are going without food. I make no apologies, as i think we all need a wake up call. Would you let this go on in your own country? no, so why let this go on anywhere?

It's not about why they're posted. They're fake. To use fake pictures simply to play on peoples emotions in and of itself is very unethical. I'm simply asking you find some real, more appropriate pictures.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Exactly what is the matter with you? Your nation alone could eliminate the poverty in Africa, overnight. You are affluent and your government is elected. Your government finances itself through taxes. Taxes could very easily be raised enough to end starvation in Africa. And none of you would starve. Ain't happening though, and you're not complaining about it.

What about the holdings of the monarchy? Why not sell the crown jewels or Buckingham palace?

The Catholic church does far more worldwide for the poor than your nation. Talk to me when you take the log out of your eye.

That would be wonderful. Unfortunately it won't happen. But it still doesn't matter. Instead of concentrating on what others aren't doing in an attempt to make ourselves look good, we should be concentrating on what we're doing in an attempt to make the world better.

And on a second note, God didn't call the government to give to the poor. He called the church to give to the poor.

 

[beechy]

It's not about why they're posted. They're fake. To use fake pictures simply to play on peoples emotions in and of itself is very unethical. I'm simply asking you find some real, more appropriate pictures.

Without comment as to the propriety or quality of stan1980's dramatic argument, I'm curious as to why you believe those pictures are fake ....

 

[Avatar]

That would be wonderful. Unfortunately it won't happen. But it still doesn't matter. Instead of concentrating on what others aren't doing in an attempt to make ourselves look good, we should be concentrating on what we're doing in an attempt to make the world better.

And on a second note, God didn't call the government to give to the poor. He called the church to give to the poor.

Dead wrong. He called on all of us to give to the poor. The government is of the people. The government is us, we choose it. There the responsibility lies. With each and every one of us.

 

[stan1980]

Exactly what is the matter with you? Your nation alone could eliminate the poverty in Africa, overnight. You are affluent and your government is elected. Your government finances itself through taxes. Taxes could very easily be raised enough to end starvation in Africa. And none of you would starve. Ain't happening though, and you're not complaining about it.

What about the holdings of the monarchy? Why not sell the crown jewels or Buckingham palace?

The Catholic church does far more worldwide for the poor than your nation. Talk to me when you take the log out of your eye.

You're absolutely right. The monarchy in this country don't need their possessions, and i'd love nothing more than for them to sell up. I didn't have to pick on the catholic church, as you rightly say there are plenty of others who could sort out the problem... BUT i don't have much faith in them doing much about the problem. The catholic church on the other hand i could see making the biggest gesture the world has ever seen. They are in a position to do it, and if they do represent God or Jesus Christ, they shouldn't need clowns like me putting pressure on them.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Without comment as to the propriety or quality of stan1980's dramatic argument, I'm curious as to why you believe those pictures are fake ....

Malnourished children don't appear sickly like that, they're bloated. There was a group from my church that visited Africa a few years back. Very few people in general look like that.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Dead wrong. He called on all of us to give to the poor. The government is of the people. The government is us, we choose it. There the responsibility lies. With each and every one of us.

He called on the church specifically. I'm fairly sure Christ knows to call out the non-believers to give to the poor is yelling at a wall that's ten feet thick.

 

[Avatar]

He called on the church specifically. I'm fairly sure Christ knows to call out the non-believers to give to the poor is yelling at a wall that's ten feet thick.

There was no church then. Jesus was calling on Christians. Pressure your government, vote differently. It is what you are called to do.

Nobody does it though. That would mean higher taxes, personal sacrifices. Can't have that. Much easier to wring your hands and claim impotence while condemning the church that does more for the poor than any nation on earth does.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

There was no church then. Jesus was calling on Christians. Pressure your government, vote differently. It is what you are called to do.

Nobody does it though. That would mean higher taxes, personal sacrifices. Can't have that. Much easier to wring your hands and claim impotence while condemning the church that does more for the poor than any nation on earth does.

There you go pushing the blame again...

 

[beechy]

Malnourished children don't appear sickly like that, they're bloated. There was a group from my church that visited Africa a few years back. Very few people in general look like that.

Malnutrition looks different depending on the type and stage. Protein deficiency with a more or less adequate amount of calories can cause kwashiorkor, which is most visibly characterized by the bloated belly and edema (swelling) that you may have seen in your church pictures. But if you couple severe protein deficiency with calorie deficiency, the result can be marasmus, which is what is shown in those pictures. If you type "marasmus" into Google and do and image search you'll find pictures like the ones stan1980 posted. Late stage anorexics often have this type of appearance.

 

[stan1980]

It's not about why they're posted. They're fake. To use fake pictures simply to play on peoples emotions in and of itself is very unethical. I'm simply asking you find some real, more appropriate pictures.

I don;t think they are fake. The first picture was from the bbc, and i highly doubt they would fake those sort of images.