Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[Ben12]

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I understand the scriptural definition of the church of God, Ben.. although that's not what I asked you.. I asked you a very simple question.. I asked you if the churches described in the Rev are literal or imaginary..

So which is it Ben..?

Who ever used the word imaginary; I have described the Book of Revelation as Spiritual Book , full of Symbolism; hidden spiritual deepness; not literal; not carnal, not religious; never have I used the word imaginary.

 

[Ben12]

Also Ben.. is this what you consider great spiritual insight.. cutting and pasting the thoughts of other people..?

Can you share your own thoughts.. or are you limited to only cutting asnd pasting the thoughts of other people, who happen to have opinions no less or greater than your own..?

I do both.

 

[Markea]

Who ever used the word imaginary; I have described the Book of Revelation as Spiritual Book , full of Symbolism; hidden spiritual deepness; not literal; not carnal, not religious; never have I used the word imaginary.

OK, so I'll take that as the churches described in the Rev as NOT LITERAL churches..

So, according to your great spiritual insight.. there were no literal churches in Rev.. there were no literal messengers.. there was no command for people to literally repent.. there was no literal expectation of waiting for the coming of Christ.. it's all means something entirely different to you..

Hey.. to each his own.. right..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Who ever used the word imaginary; I have described the Book of Revelation as Spiritual Book , full of Symbolism; hidden spiritual deepness; not literal; not carnal, not religious; never have I used the word imaginary.

I am in agreement with you. Many Christians have been "chastized" for spiritualizing the Scriptures, but if I remember right, didn't JESUS proclaim He was "not of this world"?

This guy was called "anti-semitic" for his views of the change of Priesthood for example:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev1.htm

.............One misconception shared by some is that the Revelation has nothing of importance to say to us. It’s considered to be merely a bizarre piece of first-century writing with no relevance for today. Another wrong idea is that the Revelation is a code book describing a specific outline of history written in advance. Countless interpreters have tried to "decode" the book from a historical perspective to find all the major world events of the past 1900 years.

Others interpret it more literally as a handbook for predicting the cataclysmic events that will bring the final wrath of God and the end of the world. The claims of Christian groups from the early church to the present — that the Revelation pinpoints the events, personalities, and time periods of "the end" — have all failed.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek. And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection.

 

[Markea]

I am in agreement with you. Many Christians have been "chastized" for spiritualizing the Scriptures, but if I remember right, didn't JESUS proclaim He was "not of this world"?

The Lord told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world.. not yet He said.. because in Rev 11:15 that changes..

[bible]Revelation 11:15[/bible]

I'm sure that you and Ben can come up with some 'spiritualized' meaning for it though.. lol

 

[Ben12]

Well, "lone ranger", you are definitely NOT alone. I don't subscribe to the doctrines of men or religious denominations either. God told us that we should ask, seek and knock. He said that when we do, the door will be opened. He said that He gave us the Holy Spirit who will counsel, teach and remind us of what He said to us.

I can also agree that there are things that we won't know, that are indeed very deep, because:

1Cr 13:12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


But that's part of the journey. God reveals things to us when we make the effort and seek it first. Have you ever read Enoch? Enoch is shown things and keeps on asking, "what's this?" and "what's that?", and the angels constantly say, "this is what it is but why are you so interested in knowing?"

One example:


[Chapter 25] 1 And he said unto me: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, 2 and why dost thou wish to learn the truth?' Then I answered him saying: 'I wish to 3 know about everything, but especially about this tree.'

http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM



Furthermore, I don't think that it is "putting God in a box" to try to understand what the 1000 years has to do with His plan for mankind. He has told us that he worked for 6 days and rested on the 7th. He has told us that one day is as 1000 years. He has told us to keep the Sabbath. There's a reason for all of that and we, individually, should dig until we discover it.

Amen about the Lone Ranger; out side the camp.

Look; I am not going to address the 1000 year; there is much more to this subject and especially when you start getting into the Sabbath. As I said earlier I do not limit God to time; I am open to what ever happens.

The Enoch question is something I have not felt let to search out.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Amen about the Lone Ranger; out side the camp.

Look; I am not going to address the 1000 year; there is much more to this subject and especially when you start getting into the Sabbath. As I said earlier I do not limit God to time; I am open to what ever happens.

The Enoch question is something I have not felt let to search out.

Yes, it was about 5 years after I found out about Enoch that I decided to really look at it. Church people would say that the canon is complete as is. Little do they know that there are several canons which vary slightly. I decided to take a leap of faith and trust that God will lead and guide as promised.

http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/BIBLE/canon2.stm

 

[Ben12]

The Lord told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world.. not yet He said.. because in Rev 11:15 that changes..

[bible]Revelation 11:15[/bible]

I'm sure that you and Ben can come up with some 'spiritualized' meaning for it though.. lol

God is a Spirit and His Word is spiritual; if you have a problem with that I cannot help you. I do not believe in a carnal, literal Bible and especially the Book of Revelation (the Most Spiritual book in the Bible) Look you seem to have Revelation all figured out in your box; I do not; nor will I ever until that which is perfect has come. But I know one thing it religious Baby-lon has no clue.

John was in Spirit; on the Lord’s Day; I am sure the man John was a literal man standing on that island of Patmos; but he was in spirit; so what his message is was spirit; not literal. So if I am wrong show me where in scripture the message in Revelation was literal…… Stop showing your anger and show me God’s Word.

Manchild: A man is someone who is mature; and seeing we are in Revelation this is a symbolism message to us; a child is someone open; so a mature spiritual child that is open. The woman is the church realm; notice the manchild came out of the church realm. Church (Gk) Ecclesia) or called out…. There is a difference between the women and the man child.

"Come out (Ecclesia) of her…that you be not partaker of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[Ben12]

Yes, it was about 5 years after I found out about Enoch that I decided to really look at it. Church people would say that the canon is complete as is. Little do they know that there are several canons which vary slightly. I decided to take a leap of faith and trust that God will lead and guide as promised.

http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/BIBLE/canon2.stm

I understand all this; but I am so deeply involved in what I already have; it is a bit tuff to go some where else.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I understand all this; but I am so deeply involved in what I already ave; it is a bit tuff to go some where else.

 

[Markea]

God is a Spirit and His Word is spiritual; if you have a problem with that I cannot help you. I do not believe in a carnal, literal Bible and especially the Book of Revelation (the Most Spiritual book in the Bible) Look you seem to have Revelation all figured out in your box; I do not; nor will I ever until that which is perfect has come. But I know one thing it religious Baby-lon has no clue.

It's true that the word of God is spiritually discerned.. although that doesn't mean that everything in the scriptures is not literal.. Corinth was a literal church with literal people.. and its message is just as spiritual and living as the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.. so I'm not sure where you come up with the Revelation as being the most spiritual book in the bible..?

John also wrote that the Lord was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.. so obviously He isn't literally a LAMB as in an animal.. but He literally is the only means of having the sin of the world atoned for.. spiritual and symbolic statements in the scriptures equate to things that are real.. things that literally happen..

AND.. I do not have all of the Revelation in a box.. I share thoughts and opinions like anyone else.. although if you're going to insist that it all means something entirely different than what it DOES say.. then you're entitled to that opinion.. I disagree with it.. so what's new..

 

[Markea]

So Ben.. when REV 11:15 says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ..

What does that mean to YOU..?

Spare me the cutting and pasting of other opinions.. I can read them for myself.

 

[Ben12]

I am in agreement with you. Many Christians have been "chastized" for spiritualizing the Scriptures, but if I remember right, didn't JESUS proclaim He was "not of this world"?

This guy was called "anti-semitic" for his views of the change of Priesthood for example:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev1.htm

.............One misconception shared by some is that the Revelation has nothing of importance to say to us. It’s considered to be merely a bizarre piece of first-century writing with no relevance for today. Another wrong idea is that the Revelation is a code book describing a specific outline of history written in advance. Countless interpreters have tried to "decode" the book from a historical perspective to find all the major world events of the past 1900 years.

Others interpret it more literally as a handbook for predicting the cataclysmic events that will bring the final wrath of God and the end of the world. The claims of Christian groups from the early church to the present — that the Revelation pinpoints the events, personalities, and time periods of "the end" — have all failed.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek. And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection.

Amen; baby-lon knows so little about God's Priesthood mentioned all thought out scripture; they are so wrapped up condemning God's creation to eternal torture; their is no place for the heathen, or remaindered of mankind. Who cares about ruling and reigning wit Christ; and becoming Kings and Priest if everyone is lost for eternity in a torture chamber? Sounds more like Nazi Germany; or Communist China or Russia then the Kingdom of God.

 

[Ben12]

So Ben.. when REV 11:15 says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ..

What does that mean to YOU..?

Spare me the cutting and pasting of other opinions.. I can read them for myself.

Better yet you tell me what you think what it means.

 

[Ben12]

So Ben.. when REV 11:15 says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ..

What does that mean to YOU..?

Spare me the cutting and pasting of other opinions.. I can read them for myself.

You keep asking me questions and I am stilling looking for that verse that says Revelation is literal; that you keep trying to prove to me? I have given my verses but were are yours?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

God is a Spirit and His Word is spiritual; if you have a problem with that I cannot help you. I do not believe in a carnal, literal Bible and especially the Book of Revelation (the Most Spiritual book in the Bible) Look you seem to have Revelation all figured out in your box; I do not; nor will I ever until that which is perfect has come.

Never say never....
(I realize you weren't talking to me in this post but I wanted to reply as well)

But I know one thing it religious Baby-lon has no clue.

They haven't seemed to move beyond "join our church...we accept donations". If you want to know God, you have to seek Him on your own.

John was in Spirit; on the Lord’s Day; I am sure the man John was a literal man standing on that island of Patmos; but he was in spirit; so what his message is was spirit; not literal. So if I am wrong show me where in scripture the message in Revelation was literal…… Stop showing your anger and show me God’s Word.

I think the problem is defining what is real...the spiritual or the physical. Both are real. And much of what is mentioned in Revelation is symbolic of what is real whether it is physical or spiritual. On top of that, the symbolism sometimes describes things that are both spiritual and physical and even have layers of meaning.

Example: Beast out of the sea. There's a whole lot of description there in Rev 13 about it/him.

We know this is talking about a guy who has the authority of the devil. Is he the devil? Yes and no. He is described as being evil with the power of the devil but yet the "man" part is the "mouth", the representative.

Of course, there's a lot more to it than that but you see how the spiritual and the physical combine?

Manchild: A man is someone who is mature; and seeing we are in Revelation this is a symbolism message to us; a child is someone open; so a mature spiritual child that is open. The woman is the church realm; notice the manchild came out of the church realm. Church (Gk) Ecclesia) or called out…. There is a difference between the women and the man child.

Well, that's an interesting idea...and it could be right...

Or it could be referring to this:

Isa 9:6For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Compare:

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

NIV says it this way:

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.


The woman...well...some have said it's Zion above, others say it's Israel, I don't think it's the church:

Gen 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspringand hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”


I came across this too, just now...

Jer 4:31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child—
the cry of the Daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
“Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers.”




Isa 66:7 “Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
Isa 66:8 Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
Isa 66:9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God.
Isa 66:10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her.
Isa 66:11 For you will nurse and be satisfied
at her comforting breasts;
you will drink deeply
and delight in her overflowing abundance.”


Mic 4:10 Writhe in agony, O Daughter of Zion,
like a woman in labor,
for now you must leave the city
to camp in the open field.
You will go to Babylon;
there you will be rescued.
There the Lord will redeem you
out of the hand of your enemies.

Mic 4:11 But now many nations
are gathered against you.
They say, “Let her be defiled,
let our eyes gloat over Zion!”
Mic 4:12 But they do not know
the thoughts of the Lord;
they do not understand his plan,
he who gathers them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

Mic 4:13 “Rise and thresh, O Daughter of Zion,
for I will give you horns of iron;
I will give you hoofs of bronze
and you will break to pieces many nations.”

You will devote their ill-gotten gains to the Lord,
their wealth to the Lord of all the earth.

Mic 5:3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.


Isa 26:17 As a woman with child and about to give birth
writhes and cries out in her pain,
so were we in your presence, O Lord.
Isa 26:18We were with child, we writhed in pain,
but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth;
we have not given birth to people of the world.


I'm reserving judgment on exactly who the woman is pending more information.

 

[Markea]

Better yet you tell me what you think what it means.

I think that it means EXACTLY what it SAYS.. that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Christ.. BUT WHEN..?

This portion of the Revelation pertains to things which shall be hereafter..

The LORD told Pilate that His kingdom was NOT of this world.. so what changed..? OR when will it change..?

We know that satan is the god of this world right now.. and if I recall correctly.. you needed this simple scriptural fact shown to you..

So when will the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ..?

How are you going to spiritualize this away Ben..?

 

[Markea]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ (which basically means the unveiling of Jesus Christ) is rightly divided for us within itself.. ie..

[bible]Revelation 1:19[/bible]

John is told to write of the things which he had seen (past), of the things which are (present), and of the things which shall be hereafter (future, ie, after the things which are)..

And we know precisely where the things which shall be hereafter commence.. From chapter 4 onward.. and this makes perfect sense.. because the things which are pertain to the here and now.. ie, while Christ is building His church... and this correlates to chapters 2-3 of the Rev.

We know that the revelation of Jesus Christ is future.. Peter makes it perfectly clear..

[bible]1 Peter 1:13[/bible]

 

[Ben12]

I think that it means EXACTLY what it SAYS.. that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Christ.. BUT WHEN..?

This portion of the Revelation pertains to things which shall be hereafter..

The LORD told Pilate that His kingdom was NOT of this world.. so what changed..? OR when will it change..?

We know that satan is the god of this world right now.. and if I recall correctly.. you needed this simple scriptural fact shown to you..

So when will the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ..?

How are you going to spiritualize this away Ben..?

I need to go but I will get back a bit later…


You keep saying I am spiritualizing scripture as if it is bad.

Yes Satan is the god of the earth; but He is not the God of the Earth. There are plenty more scriptures; I stopped at Psalm 90; but there is no doubt that the earth is God earth. You are right he is not the god of this earth; but He is God of all the earth


1 Chronicles 29:11
Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

Psalm 2:7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psalm 24: 1The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.


Psalm 46:10
Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psalm 47:2
For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.

Psalm 47:6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. 7For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. 8God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.

Psalm 72: 8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth



Psalm 72:19And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.



Psalm 74: 16The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. 17Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.

Psalm 78: 68But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. 69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
Psalm 82: 8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Psalm 89: 11The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
Psalm 90: 1Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

 

[Ben12]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ (which basically means the unveiling of Jesus Christ) is rightly divided for us within itself.. ie..

[bible]Revelation 1:19[/bible]

John is told to write of the things which he had seen (past), of the things which are (present), and of the things which shall be hereafter (future, ie, after the things which are)..

And we know precisely where the things which shall be hereafter commence.. From chapter 4 onward.. and this makes perfect sense.. because the things which are pertain to the here and now.. ie, while Christ is building His church... and this correlates to chapters 2-3 of the Rev.

We know that the revelation of Jesus Christ is future.. Peter makes it perfectly clear..

[bible]1 Peter 1:13[/bible]

Yes we have a carnal church (baby-lon) Note spelling); but we also have a glorious church without spot or wrinkle; that is spiritual. You are a bit vague; can you give me more? I am really looking for the word carnal, literal; something. I mean I can spiritualize what you are saying. You see Jesus after his resurrection was not flesh; He had a new body; new glorious body. He walked though walls appeared where ever He needed to. I do not want this flesh body in for eternity. Now Adam’s body would be quite an improvement before the fall; when he was made in God’s image.