Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[HisdaughterJen]

I am as far from a RCC as you can be; I do not even believe in any religion. Forget what I have to say for one moment and explain to me if symbolism is not relevant to Revelation then why first verse of revelation declares it.

Then show me where it says in scripture where it says it is literal, or what ever spin you can come up with. At least I am basing my thoughts on this awesome book on a verse in scripture; not my opinion.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:​

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic. (Please show me in scripture if I am wrong?) Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it.

I'm sorry Ben, I must have you confused with someone else...although you are saying the same thing that others who are from the RCC are saying on another thread.

But, I think I've answered you before...yes, Revelation is symbolic but that symbolism represents something real.

That same symbolism is also mentioned in other books of the Bible. It's not like it's all brand new. Even though there are many scribes/writers, there is only One Author.

It's all well and good to assign this or that to the symbolism and spiritualize it all away but it's also referring to events that are very real.

There will be more resurrections. Jesus will really, actually return. There will be an army, led by a couple of bad guys under the authority of the devil, who will be destroyed by Jesus at His return. There will actually be two guys in Jerusalem who testify and prophesy and perform miracles just like Elijah and Moses did. The cherub known as satan will actually be bound in an abyss, in chains in darkness for 1000 years. It's all very real.

 

[Markea]

So, imo.. Ben's last two posts concerning Rev 20 show just how silly amillennialism can get..

 

[HisdaughterJen]

So, imo.. Ben's last two posts concerning Rev 20 show just how silly amillennialism can get..

Yeah...that was weird...satan is being "down-idled"?...not if you read Revelation. It shows that he is given 42 months to reign before he is bound for 1000 years. That sounds like "full throttle" and "complete stop" to me.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am as far from a RCC as you can be; I do not even believe in any religion. Forget what I have to say for one moment and explain to me if symbolism is not relevant to Revelation then why first verse of revelation declares it.

Then show me where it says in scripture where it says it is literal, or what ever spin you can come up with. At least I am basing my thoughts on this awesome book on a verse in scripture; not my opinion.

Revelations 1:1 ​

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:​

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic. (Please show me in scripture if I am wrong?) Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it.

So we could say the Roman church "spiritualized" Revelation to show they are now in the Millennium now?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans/rwmaioi <4514> and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation.

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a-sound in midst of the four living-ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius/dhnariou <1220> and three choinex of barleys of Denarius/dhnariou <1220> and the olive-oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

1220. denarion day-nar'-ee-on of Latin origin; a denarius (or ten asses):--pence, penny(-worth).
AV - penny 9, pence 5, pennyworth 2; 16 denarius = "containing ten"
1) A Roman silver coin in NT time. It took its name from it being equal to ten "asses", a number after 217 B.C. increased to sixteen (about 3.898 grams or .1375 oz.). It was the principal silver coin of the Roman empire. From the parable of the
labourers in the vineyard, it would seem that a denarius was then the ordinary pay for a day's wages. (Mt. 20:2-13)

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

..........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins

 

[Ben12]

So we could say the Roman church "spiritualized" Revelation to show they are now in the Millennium now?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans/rwmaioi <4514> and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation.

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a-sound in midst of the four living-ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius/dhnariou <1220> and three choinex of barleys of Denarius/dhnariou <1220> and the olive-oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

1220. denarion day-nar'-ee-on of Latin origin; a denarius (or ten asses):--pence, penny(-worth).
AV - penny 9, pence 5, pennyworth 2; 16 denarius = "containing ten"
1) A Roman silver coin in NT time. It took its name from it being equal to ten "asses", a number after 217 B.C. increased to sixteen (about 3.898 grams or .1375 oz.). It was the principal silver coin of the Roman empire. From the parable of the
labourers in the vineyard, it would seem that a denarius was then the ordinary pay for a day's wages. (Mt. 20:2-13)

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

..........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins

I know little to nothing about the Roman Church.

 

[Ben12]

I'm sorry Ben, I must have you confused with someone else...although you are saying the same thing that others who are from the RCC are saying on another thread.

But, I think I've answered you before...yes, Revelation is symbolic but that symbolism represents something real.

That same symbolism is also mentioned in other books of the Bible. It's not like it's all brand new. Even though there are many scribes/writers, there is only One Author.

It's all well and good to assign this or that to the symbolism and spiritualize it all away but it's also referring to events that are very real.

There will be more resurrections. Jesus will really, actually return. There will be an army, led by a couple of bad guys under the authority of the devil, who will be destroyed by Jesus at His return. There will actually be two guys in Jerusalem who testify and prophesy and perform miracles just like Elijah and Moses did. The cherub known as satan will actually be bound in an abyss, in chains in darkness for 1000 years. It's all very real.

As I said before; the spirit is the real. The literal is not.

 

[garry2]

As I said before; the spirit is the real. The literal is not.

The spirit is real, as in God, as in the World to come.

Literal is also real, as much as we and this world are real in the physical.

I would not say for instance that this is the real world, when Gods World - new Jerusalem, has to be "THE" real world.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

As I said before; the spirit is the real. The literal is not.

The things that the symbolism in Revelation represent are found in scripture. It's not like the symbolism is pulled out of thin air. There is ONE Author to the Bible. He uses the same symbolism.

side note: In fact, I'd say the fact that the symbolism is carried throughout speaks to the accuracy and authenticity of the Bible.


So, as far as symbolism in Revelation goes, what do we have?

a lamb
blood of the Lamb
24 elders
144,000 of Israel sealed on earth
a multitude in heaven wearing white robes
two witnesses
a star falling from heaven, given a key to an abyss
two beasts and a dragon
saints
New Jerusalem

Yeah, there's a lot of symbolism there....a lot more than I've listed.

But, if you take what I've listed or anything else from Revelation that I haven't listed and do a search in the Bible, you'll see what the things mean or what they represent.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Here's "lamb" in the NT (there's a lot more in the OT):

Mar 14:12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

Luk 22:7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

Jhn 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jhn 1:36When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

Act 8:32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

1Cr 5:7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast-as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

1Pe 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.




So, when Revelation mentions the "lamb", we understand that it is speaking of Jesus:



Rev 5:6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Rev 5:8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 5:12In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"

Rev 5:13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Rev 6:1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"



There's a bunch more in Revelation that mention the Lamb but you get the idea.

That was an easy one.

In Revelation, the lamb is doing a lot of things.

 

[Ben12]

Call how I believe weird, strange or what ever you want; but as of yet no one has shown me where the Book of Revelation is literal. It is not of matter of pulling something out of the air; the symbolism in scripture must come from the original language; types, symbolisms, patterns;somewhere somehow from God's Word.

Revelations 1:1 ​

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:​

John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; this makes the Revelation a spiritual book; not literal, not carnal, not prophetic. Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book in all the Bible; and I always put Genesis in second place. It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it.

If this awesome spiritual book is something other then I am saying; then please show me in scripture your view point. If you can’t prove it in scripture; especially after I just showed you then all you have is dogma, religion, doctrine. Should I believe you, orthodoxy, or who ever; maybe your church or denomination; or God’s Word.

‘signified” or signs and symbols.​

 

[Ben12]

Here's "lamb" in the NT (there's a lot more in the OT):

Mar 14:12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

Luk 22:7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.

Jhn 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Jhn 1:36When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

Act 8:32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

1Cr 5:7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast-as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

1Pe 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.




So, when Revelation mentions the "lamb", we understand that it is speaking of Jesus:



Rev 5:6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Rev 5:8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 5:12In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"

Rev 5:13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Rev 6:1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"



There's a bunch more in Revelation that mention the Lamb but you get the idea.

That was an easy one.

In Revelation, the lamb is doing a lot of things.

Amen; let God's Word speak instead of man's religious teaching. The same patterns our out there for numbers, fire, priesthood etc.

 

[Ben12]

The things that the symbolism in Revelation represent are found in scripture. It's not like the symbolism is pulled out of thin air. There is ONE Author to the Bible. He uses the same symbolism.

side note: In fact, I'd say the fact that the symbolism is carried throughout speaks to the accuracy and authenticity of the Bible.


So, as far as symbolism in Revelation goes, what do we have?

a lamb
blood of the Lamb
24 elders
144,000 of Israel sealed on earth
a multitude in heaven wearing white robes
two witnesses
a star falling from heaven, given a key to an abyss
two beasts and a dragon
saints
New Jerusalem

Yeah, there's a lot of symbolism there....a lot more than I've listed.

But, if you take what I've listed or anything else from Revelation that I haven't listed and do a search in the Bible, you'll see what the things mean or what they represent.

Amen

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Amen; let God's Word speak instead of man's religious teaching. The same patterns our out there for numbers, fire, priesthood etc.

Amen!

You get the idea, then, that Revelation can be understood as symbolic of actual events, people, etc. and doesn't have to be spiritualized and considered "unknowable".

I mean, there's a lot of symbolism that is there to be understood. Gabriel told Daniel that his vision would be "sealed" until the time of the end. Revelation is a big part of that unsealing in the time of the end. The closer we get to the events unfolding as prophesied, the more we will be able to understand it....with a little help from above, of course.

We're supposed to ask, seek, knock, right? It's all very exciting and amazing! God is faithful.

I've been talking with others in another thread about the millenium. Revelation is the only place that specifically mentions a millenium, 1000 years when Christ reigns on/over the earth in a tangible, physical way. But there are other places in the Old Testament that show there is 6000 years for mankind followed by a 1000 year Sabbath day. So, it seems like the truth is more implicit than explicit in some of the symbolism. I don't know of any other way to explain it to people when they question the millenium than to demonstrate from scripture the plan that God set in motion from the beginning.


Another edit to add:

I'm seeking the Lord and scouring scripture about the two witnesses. There appears to be a tie to Zech 4 and Zerubbabel and the building of the temple. I've posted in the "two witnesses" thread. Maybe you might have some insight to add?

 

[Markea]

How about the churches in Rev 2 and 3 Ben.. are they simply imaginary churches.. not actually consisting of real people.. ?

 

[Ben12]

I am a lone ranger as many here have called me; I know of no deep man of God who followed some system of man, religion, denomination or Pope.

Symbolism can be known and it can be real; but it also can be very hidden and deeply spiritual and hidden or unknown. I do not put God’s Word in some preconceived box’ God’s Word is progressive; you must always be open to what He is trying to say; instead of looking back to some long held religious tradition. But I refuse to limit God on the basis of what I am willing to believe!

When it comes to the millennium all I see is confusion and I do not limit God to any time frame especially when it comes to the Book of Revelation. I believe that when one age begins; another age has ended; I guess I just do not want to limit God to any type of time schedule. I just rather be open; and prepared.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I believe in spiritual eyes as well as ears; someone who has ears to hear; which has absolutely nothing to do with the appendages on the side of our head. When something is sealed in the Lord it is sealed until God’s opens the revelation; if all you are doing is placing God in a religious box, then your eyes are open only to what the box offers. I am not clear on the two witnesses; I have always liked the silly concept of the OT and NT being the witnesses; in that I really believe if the foundations are not in the OT; you better look real close at your doctrine. The OT conceals Christ; the NT reveals Christ.

When speaking of the unveiling of Jesus Christ as if it pertains to The Book of Revelations; but it is not; it is the whole Bible. That veil in my temple has been torn from top to bottom; and because of that the unveiling of Jesus Christ is what my walk in Christ is all about.

2 Cor 3:12-18
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. NKJV

Psalm 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. Moses went up that mountain by Himself; all deep people of God need to come to a place where they can face God’s glory by them selves; Moses knew that the children of Israel could not climb those high place where God’s glory was. Most of God’s people see God’s acts; but not His ways.

Most of God’s people are contained by their own fear and their bondage of condemnations towards themselves and the Hugh majority of God’s people who they pretty much have given up on; billion have gone to the grave already without Christ. They do not have the total freedom to hear that deep quiet voice within all of us so they cannot move freely from glory to glory; because their eyes are still veiled (they are spiritual blind or example would be the OT priest (type of Melchisedec/Kings and Priest (B of R) who cannot have a blemish in their eye. The word "blemish" used in connection with the eyes is from the Hebrew CALLUS denoting a disease of the eyes, namely, cataracts. Cataracts have obscured the vision of more people throughout the ages than any other affliction of the eye.

Rev 3:18

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. KJV


Lev 21:16-23 is pregnant with a hidden spiritual message; that most take only literal. Honestly; God could care less about the below handicaps and short comings; unless He has something to say to us.

Lev 21:16-23
6 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. 18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, 19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, 20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; 21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. 22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy. 23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. KJV

 

[Ben12]

How about the churches in Rev 2 and 3 Ben.. are they simply imaginary churches.. not actually consisting of real people.. ?

Isaiah 4

1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man,
saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let
us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

​

​

There is a lot more to this subject. What does the word Church mean? It is a Greek Word &#8220;ecclesia&#8221; which simply means the called out. There is a true Church and a false Church; Baby lon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory. I posted the below in this thread; I guess you missed it. So if your definition of the church as some local or national mutual aid society; no that is not the Church.

Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

God uses Baby lon as shown by the verse above; but there is so much more.

According to Ray Prinzing:
-"Revelation 2:1 carries right on with this, adding one more word to the phrase, "These things says He that HOLDS the seven stars in His right hand . . . " We note the word "holds"-- from the Greek "krateo" TO LAY HOLD ON. God has, and IS laying hold of, apprehending a people for Himself. They are becoming a part of His RIGHT HAND COMPANY. They are so held by Him, that His hand cannot move without them being moved with it. Furthermore, they don't move until the hand moves. But becoming totally one in the WILL of the right hand, when moved it is with all the ability, power, authority of that hand."
-Let us now try to point out a few things concerning this mystery. We are told that the seven stars are the seven angels of the seven churches. We are then told that they are in the Lord&#8217;s right hand. The Greek word for &#8220;angel&#8221; is &#8220;aggelos&#8221;, literally a messenger. The word &#8220;angel&#8221; is not the translation of the Greek word, only its English spelling. The term &#8220;right hand&#8221; speaks of power and strength. &#8220;Hereafter shall we see the Son of Man sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF POWER&#8221; ( Matthew 26:64 ) &#8230; The term &#8220;seven churches&#8221; speaks of the seven ( spiritual perfection ) church ages:
1. EPHESUS - APOSTOLIC CHURCH
2. SMYRNA - MARTYRCHURCH
3. PERGAMOS - STATECHURCH
4. THYATIRA - PAPAL CHURCH
5. SARDIS - REFORMATIONCHURCH
6. PHILADELPHIA - MISSIONARYCHURCH
7. LAODICEA - APOSTATECHURCH

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I am a lone ranger as many here have called me; I know of no deep man of God who followed some system of man, religion, denomination or Pope.

Symbolism can be known and it can be real; but it also can be very hidden and deeply spiritual and hidden or unknown. I do not put God&#8217;s Word in some preconceived box&#8217; God&#8217;s Word is progressive; you must always be open to what He is trying to say; instead of looking back to some long held religious tradition. But I refuse to limit God on the basis of what I am willing to believe!

When it comes to the millennium all I see is confusion and I do not limit God to any time frame especially when it comes to the Book of Revelation. I believe that when one age begins; another age has ended; I guess I just do not want to limit God to any type of time schedule. I just rather be open; and prepared.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I believe in spiritual eyes as well as ears; someone who has ears to hear; which has absolutely nothing to do with the appendages on the side of our head. When something is sealed in the Lord it is sealed until God&#8217;s opens the revelation; if all you are doing is placing God in a religious box, then your eyes are open only to what the box offers. I am not clear on the two witnesses; I have always liked the silly concept of the OT and NT being the witnesses; in that I really believe if the foundations are not in the OT; you better look real close at your doctrine. The OT conceals Christ; the NT reveals Christ.

When speaking of the unveiling of Jesus Christ as if it pertains to The Book of Revelations; but it is not; it is the whole Bible. That veil in my temple has been torn from top to bottom; and because of that the unveiling of Jesus Christ is what my walk in Christ is all about.

2 Cor 3:12-18
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. NKJV

Psalm 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. Moses went up that mountain by Himself; all deep people of God need to come to a place where they can face God&#8217;s glory by them selves; Moses knew that the children of Israel could not climb those high place where God&#8217;s glory was. Most of God&#8217;s people see God&#8217;s acts; but not His ways.

Most of God&#8217;s people are contained by their own fear and their bondage of condemnations towards themselves and the Hugh majority of God&#8217;s people who they pretty much have given up on; billion have gone to the grave already without Christ. They do not have the total freedom to hear that deep quiet voice within all of us so they cannot move freely from glory to glory; because their eyes are still veiled (they are spiritual blind or example would be the OT priest (type of Melchisedec/Kings and Priest (B of R) who cannot have a blemish in their eye. The word "blemish" used in connection with the eyes is from the Hebrew CALLUS denoting a disease of the eyes, namely, cataracts. Cataracts have obscured the vision of more people throughout the ages than any other affliction of the eye.

Rev 3:18

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. KJV


Lev 21:16-23 is pregnant with a hidden spiritual message; that most take only literal. Honestly; God could care less about the below handicaps and short comings; unless He has something to say to us.

Lev 21:16-23
6 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. 18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, 19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, 20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; 21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. 22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy. 23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. KJV

Well, "lone ranger", you are definitely NOT alone. I don't subscribe to the doctrines of men or religious denominations either. God told us that we should ask, seek and knock. He said that when we do, the door will be opened. He said that He gave us the Holy Spirit who will counsel, teach and remind us of what He said to us.

I can also agree that there are things that we won't know, that are indeed very deep, because:

1Cr 13:12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.


But that's part of the journey. God reveals things to us when we make the effort and seek it first. Have you ever read Enoch? Enoch is shown things and keeps on asking, "what's this?" and "what's that?", and the angels constantly say, "this is what it is but why are you so interested in knowing?"

One example:


[Chapter 25] 1 And he said unto me: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, 2 and why dost thou wish to learn the truth?' Then I answered him saying: 'I wish to 3 know about everything, but especially about this tree.'

http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM



Furthermore, I don't think that it is "putting God in a box" to try to understand what the 1000 years has to do with His plan for mankind. He has told us that he worked for 6 days and rested on the 7th. He has told us that one day is as 1000 years. He has told us to keep the Sabbath. There's a reason for all of that and we, individually, should dig until we discover it.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Isaiah 4

1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man,
saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let
us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

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There is a lot more to this subject. What does the word Church mean? It is a Greek Word &#8220;ecclesia&#8221; which simply means the called out. There is a true Church and a false Church; Baby lon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory. I posted the below in this thread; I guess you missed it. So if your definition of the church as some local or national mutual aid society; no that is not the Church.

Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

God uses Baby lon as shown by the verse above; but there is so much more.

According to Ray Prinzing:
-"Revelation 2:1 carries right on with this, adding one more word to the phrase, "These things says He that HOLDS the seven stars in His right hand . . . " We note the word "holds"-- from the Greek "krateo" TO LAY HOLD ON. God has, and IS laying hold of, apprehending a people for Himself. They are becoming a part of His RIGHT HAND COMPANY. They are so held by Him, that His hand cannot move without them being moved with it. Furthermore, they don't move until the hand moves. But becoming totally one in the WILL of the right hand, when moved it is with all the ability, power, authority of that hand."
-Let us now try to point out a few things concerning this mystery. We are told that the seven stars are the seven angels of the seven churches. We are then told that they are in the Lord&#8217;s right hand. The Greek word for &#8220;angel&#8221; is &#8220;aggelos&#8221;, literally a messenger. The word &#8220;angel&#8221; is not the translation of the Greek word, only its English spelling. The term &#8220;right hand&#8221; speaks of power and strength. &#8220;Hereafter shall we see the Son of Man sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF POWER&#8221; ( Matthew 26:64 ) &#8230; The term &#8220;seven churches&#8221; speaks of the seven ( spiritual perfection ) church ages:
1. EPHESUS - APOSTOLIC CHURCH
2. SMYRNA - MARTYRCHURCH
3. PERGAMOS - STATECHURCH
4. THYATIRA - PAPAL CHURCH
5. SARDIS - REFORMATIONCHURCH
6. PHILADELPHIA - MISSIONARYCHURCH
7. LAODICEA - APOSTATECHURCH

I don't know if I agree with that guy's assessment of who the churches of Rev 2 & 3 are....representative of church ages...but it could be.

I am leaning toward the idea that everyone in the body of Christ right now falls into the pattern of one of those churches in their heart. But...I could be wrong...

 

[Markea]

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There is a lot more to this subject. What does the word Church mean?

I understand the scriptural definition of the church of God, Ben.. although that's not what I asked you.. I asked you a very simple question.. I asked you if the churches described in the Rev are literal or imaginary..

So which is it Ben..?

 

[Markea]

Also Ben.. is this what you consider great spiritual insight.. cutting and pasting the thoughts of other people..?

Can you share your own thoughts.. or are you limited to only cutting asnd pasting the thoughts of other people, who happen to have opinions no less or greater than your own..?