Oy vey! A talking snake!!

[busterdog]

And hard work is rewarded, no?

That's why I come here.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I have heard people distinguish fallen angels and demons. I presume they are correct, but what do I know?

As for what angels, need, and apart from what Gen. 6 says, we have this comparison to the sexual sin of Sodom:

Jud 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire
They seem to seek embodiment.

Ok, now consider your verses in context with the release of the fallen angels (the demons are already present within this/mankind's physical sphere) from their present state of imprisonment:

Joel 2:2-10

• A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
• A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
• The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
• Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
• Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
• They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
• Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
• They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
• The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining

Notice the similarities between Joel's and John's descriptions:

Revelation 9:3-11

• And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
• And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
• And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
• And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
• And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
• And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
• And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
• And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
• And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

What long range ramifications can you foresee befalling mankind worldwide within this prophetic scenario?

 

[HypoTypoSis]

The problem with biblically oriented literary images such as those produced circa the Middle Ages is they are a product of fallen sinful man's error ridden imagination and not a direct result of God's perfect intent thus they therefore problematically rest precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy and cannot be taken seriously enough for one to gamble their future on.

 

[gluadys]

The problem with biblically oriented literary images such as those produced circa the Middle Ages is they are a product of fallen sinful man's error ridden imagination and not a direct result of God's perfect intent thus they therefore problematically rest precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy and cannot be taken seriously enough for one to gamble their future on.

What of the ones used by biblical writers? Literary imagination was not new in the middle ages.

 

[shernren]

The problem with biblically oriented literary images such as those produced circa the Middle Ages is they are a product of fallen sinful man's error ridden imagination and not a direct result of God's perfect intent thus they therefore problematically rest precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy and cannot be taken seriously enough for one to gamble their future on.

(emphasis added)

Firstly, who's gambling their futures on anything? Accurate demonology will hardly guarantee my salvation or yours or anyone else's.

Secondly, why is resting "precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy" a problem? Just look at the Scriptures you've just quoted:

Ok, now consider your verses in context with the release of the fallen angels (the demons are already present within this/mankind's physical sphere) from their present state of imprisonment:

Joel 2:2-10

• A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
• A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
• The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
• Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
• Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
• They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
• Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
• They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
• The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining

Notice the similarities between Joel's and John's descriptions:

Revelation 9:3-11

• And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
• And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
• And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
• And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
• And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
• And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
• And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
• And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
• And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

What long range ramifications can you foresee befalling mankind worldwide within this prophetic scenario?

Locusts, horses, golden crowns, men's faces, women's hair, lions' fangs, iron breastplates, and the sound of speeding chariots are reality. Hippogryphs, centaurs, pegasi, and like chimerae belong in Harry Potter. John wasn't afraid to blur the borders, and God wasn't afraid to put that in the Bible. Why should you be afraid to read from the Bible what's clearly in it?

 

[Tinker Grey]

How does one determine that something so ephemeral as one's demonology "rest precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy" in any case?

Sounds like a presumptous self-assurance of knowledge.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis
The problem with biblically oriented literary images such as those produced circa the Middle Ages is they are a product of fallen sinful man's error ridden imagination and not a direct result of God's perfect intent thus they therefore problematically rest precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy and cannot be taken seriously enough for one to gamble their future on.

Firstly, who's gambling their futures on anything? Accurate demonology will hardly guarantee my salvation or yours or anyone else's.

Secondly, why is resting "precipitously on the border somewhere between reality and fantasy" a problem? Just look at the Scriptures you've just quoted:

Why should you be afraid to read from the Bible what's clearly in it?

Wash foot prior to inserting in mouth.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

something so ephemeral as one's demonology

Sounds like a presumptous self-assurance of knowledge.

Ephemeral demonology? Sounds like human worldly self-presumtuousness devoid of spirit world focus. Know this:

LIFE is ephemeral!

James 4:14b For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.​

​

Self-assurance of knowledge? Know this:

Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

With such can there ever be any doubt of self-assurance?​

​

 

[Tinker Grey]

Some self-assured people are unteachable. After all, if someone disagrees with me, it must be they who are wrong.

 

[shernren]

Some self-assured people are unteachable. After all, if someone disagrees with me, it must be they who are wrong.

Which is precisely why all thinking members of society need to read about:

Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

if someone disagrees with me, it must be they who are wrong.

like the time you thought you were wrong but were mistaken.

 

[NathanCGreen]

Why wasn't Eve surprised, or even slightly taken aback, that she was spoken to by a snake?

The snake was the medium that the devil used. The snake itself did not speak.

I'm sure that Eve would have been surprised at first, but it is not recorded in the Bible. I don't think it is relevant to the situation anyway.

 

[birdan]

Which is precisely why all thinking members of society need to read about:

Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments.

That is an interesting paper. Here is the link to the full article:
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

 

[busterdog]

Ephemeral demonology? Sounds like human worldly self-presumtuousness devoid of spirit world focus. Know this:

LIFE is ephemeral!

James 4:14b For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.​

Self-assurance of knowledge? Know this:

Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

With such can there ever be any doubt of self-assurance?​

I understand what you mean. But, think about what you just said. Can you possibly get anywhere with those kinds of ultimate conclusions.

The very nature of pretty much everything in Eccleisastes for example, is so philosophical that it is impossible to insulate any of it from extreme positions and arguments. The same with the stuff you quoted.

Similarly, the demonology stuff. I am scratching my head that anyone ones to argue about it with you, as if anyone really understands it.

But, when you argue from a bottomline worldview kind of perspective, you just get these knee-jerk worldview type rejoinders.

I do it all the time myself. I am just trying to get a handle on what is going on here.

 

[Markus6]

The snake was the medium that the devil used. The snake itself did not speak.

Then why does Genesis say that the snake did speak and not mention the devil at all?

 

[shernren]

Then why does Genesis say that the snake did speak and not mention the devil at all?

Maybe Moses forgot?

 

[Scotishfury09]

Then why does Genesis say that the snake did speak and not mention the devil at all?

The concept of the Devil didn't come into Jewish theology until the post-exilic community. While the Jews were in captivity under the Babylonians and Persians they were subject to many of the Eastern ideas of duality, particularly Zoroastrianism. The dualistic influence led to the formation of the idea of Heaven and Hell and the Devil as the fallen angel.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HypoTypoSis

Ephemeral demonology? Sounds like human worldly self-presumtuousness devoid of spirit world focus. Know this:

LIFE is ephemeral!

James 4:14b For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.​

Self-assurance of knowledge? Know this:

Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

With such can there ever be any doubt of self-assurance?​

Can you possibly get anywhere with those kinds of ultimate conclusions.

Which? That life is ephemeral or that God will direct our ways in everything if we acknowledge Him in everything we do?

 

[busterdog]

Which? That life is ephemeral or that God will direct our ways in everything if we acknowledge Him in everything we do?

Either way, hard to debate.

Not that I disagree ....

I just found this wasn't working:

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Either way, hard to debate.

Not that I disagree

Debating (read: arguing) the Word of God is not centering on Him but on our own self-centeredness and it is about as far from fellowship with each other we can get.

If you don't disagree then there is no issue, right?