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Oy vey! A talking snake!!

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Scotishfury09

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The only miracle, creative or otherwise, going on around here is all the presumed mind reading being exhibited. :D

We wouldn't have to speculate so much as to what you're saying if you would actually make points rather than just regurgitating scripture.

I can take scripture out of context just as much as you can. Look I can even highlight, bold, italicize, and underline to make points, too.

Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." Matthew 22:29
 
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busterdog

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We wouldn't have to speculate so much as to what you're saying if you would actually make points rather than just regurgitating scripture.

I can take scripture out of context just as much as you can. Look I can even highlight, bold, italicize, and underline to make points, too.

Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." Matthew 22:29


Interesting. It occurs to me that it was the power of the God that first got my attention. I saw it work what was impossible. YEC in earnest followed.
 
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busterdog

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That is why this discussion was looking at knowing the scriptures and what the bible tells us the talking snake was.

Even Glen Morton believes a talking snake was possible, if not required in the text. He knows his scripture.
 
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Assyrian

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Not if the text is a metaphor. But Glenn is after all a bit of a literalist. He has changed his literal interpetation of Genesis since his YEC days but he still interprets it literally.

However, as we have seen the book of Revelation tells us who and what the snake was, and Christ's defeat of Satan on the cross shows how the promised redeemer in Genesis was to be fulfilled. We also learn how Genesis was speaking to us when it described the temptation of mankind by a fallen angel and the angel's defeat by the promised seed. Genesis described it entirely in terms of a talking snake who loses it legs as punishment and has to slither on the ground and eat dust, who finally gets it head bruised after it bites the promised Seed's heel. That is not a literal description of the history of what happened it is a metaphorical one.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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  1. Serpent: Hebrew = nachash = a shining one
  2. Numbers 21:6-9: fiery serpents = burning. Hebrew: nacheshim saraphim. This is the figure of speech known as Metonymy of effect, because the effect of the bite was a burning sensation. Hebrew, saraph. The Seraphim are so called in Isaiah 6:2 because they were burning ones: hence the name for these serpents, because they are shining ones in appearance.
  3. Genesis 3:1: The old serpent (2 Corinthians 11:3) was transformed as "an angel of light" = "a glorious angel (2 Corinthians 11:14).
    • Genesis 3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
    • Isaiah 6:2: Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
    • Numbers 21:6-9: And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
    • II Corinthians 11:3: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    • II Corinthians 11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 
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Assyrian

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Yet Genesis describes the serpent as if it were a completely ordinary reptile, apart from being very clever and able to talk. It is one of the beasts of the field, who ends up slithering on its belly like snakes we see today, and eating dirt as snakes appear to do. The curse pronounced on the snake are curses designed for an animal just as Adam's curses are curses suited to a farmer and Eve's to a wife and mother. The snake has children as Eve does and its children are enemies of Eve's biological children. Like normal snakes it can kill by biting people on the foot and can be killed by having its head stamped on. The snake is as real a snake in the story as the pigs were in the prodigal son, or the birds of the air in the parable of the sower.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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Genesis 3:15 is the FIRST prophecy in the bible and speaks to the means by which man may one day be redeemed through the salvation possible in Jesus Christ; it speaks to His coming, His death and resurrection and of His overcoming and defeating that old serpent, Satan.


Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 
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Assyrian

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Amen.

The snake wasn't some local reptile, it was Satan and Jesus defeated him by his death on the cross and resurrection from the dead. This is what Genesis promised, it was the first, and one of the greatest, messianic prophecy.

Yet Genesis describes Jesus' defeat if Satan in terms of a stamping on a snake. The prophecy is given as a metaphor. In fact the whole temptation of mankind is described in a metaphor.
 
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busterdog

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Yet Genesis describes the serpent as if it were a completely ordinary reptile, apart from being very clever and able to talk. It is one of the beasts of the field, who ends up slithering on its belly like snakes we see today, and eating dirt as snakes appear to do. The curse pronounced on the snake are curses designed for an animal just as Adam's curses are curses suited to a farmer and Eve's to a wife and mother. The snake has children as Eve does and its children are enemies of Eve's biological children. Like normal snakes it can kill by biting people on the foot and can be killed by having its head stamped on. The snake is as real a snake in the story as the pigs were in the prodigal son, or the birds of the air in the parable of the sower.

Actually, the great curiousity about this whole thing is how UNLIKE the story fo the snake is to your parables. That seems to be your first point about the "ordinary reptile" (in part, that seemed your point).

There are no cues to distinguish parable from narrative. In all of your other examples, the text is rife with clues.

Daniel is also pretty clearly a prophetic vision. That is different. Time is compressed, or its order not always regular.

You know my position on Psalms and we all agree that neither TE nor YEC thinks the the Psalmist meant that God sits on a circle, since the text tells us we are in metaphor land in a much clearer way.

The talking snake is spoken of in a very ordinary way. Which admittedly makes it a bit of a head scratcher. But, that is not ground to lump it in with all the other distinct literary forums. Now, it is certainly convenient to do so, but that is hardly justification. Most so-called modern scholarship is scholarship of convenience on this point.

In a mixed metaphor form, one has to determine where the boundaries lie. Jesus said "This is my body." If it wasn't really Jesus in miniature he was eating, is Jesus therefore not at a table, not speaking, not with the Apostles or was he really referring to a future really heavy trip of free love and acid in Haight Asbury in 1968, involving a guy with a long beard? The presence of some metaphor does free you from the need to draw a boundary based upon what the text says.

I still struggle with the talking snake. But, if you use Juvenissum very apt commentary above, we have the following literal events: talking, talking to a woman, the woman is Eve, temptation is in view, the one talking is evil. Now, what is a snake? And what is the curse?

Does the ground grow thorns. There's a literal curse. Do snakes have legs? Vestigial at best. Not easy stuff.

Juvenissum made what seems to me to be an excellent catch. Paul says the serpent is transformed. Does that mean that all you have to complain about is that Genesis does not announce a transformation when the word for an ordinary reptile is used?

What exactly is a "transformation"? Does it have scales and a forked tongue? How do you rule out that possibility?

Here's a different question. Why does this beast no go on its belly?

There is a relationship between forbidden "fruit" and the curse of agriculture among the thorns and stones of the earth.

The nature of angels in Gen. 6 (and Jude) seeking embodiment for improper purposes still bothers me in this respect. Note that good angels are often referred to as "men" in appearance. Satan, not so, as far as I can remember. Something messed up seemed to have happened with Satan in terms of his flesh, and yet he can carry Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple and high mountains. Somehow he can present himself before Gods' Court to prosecute Job. Weird stuff deserving of caution.
 
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shernren

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Actually, the great curiousity about this whole thing is how UNLIKE the story fo the snake is to your parables. That seems to be your first point about the "ordinary reptile" (in part, that seemed your point).

There are no cues to distinguish parable from narrative. In all of your other examples, the text is rife with clues.

Daniel is also pretty clearly a prophetic vision. That is different. Time is compressed, or its order not always regular.

You know my position on Psalms and we all agree that neither TE nor YEC thinks the the Psalmist meant that God sits on a circle, since the text tells us we are in metaphor land in a much clearer way.

Wow! Did "we all agree" this in some parallel universe?

There is no interpretive inconsistency in taking "circle" literally here. Further on the verse says "as grasshoppers" "as a curtain" "as a tent".

"As" marks the simile indicating that this is intended figuratively. It does not say "as a circle".

It's also interesting that some Creationists take the second part - "spreadeth them out as a tent" - as proof of the expanding universe. If "grasshopper" is metaphorical, then do you approve of this second use of the passage?

Except that:

[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers;
that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,
and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in ...

(emphases added)

The presence of "as" signals a metaphor in the last three clauses. Indeed, there is explicit parallelism:

inhabitants as grasshoppers
stretcheth out the heavens as [one stretches out] a curtain
spreadeth them out as [one spreads out] a tent to dwell in

But the first clause isn't even "the earth, as a circle", which would have given some support to your forced insertion of a metaphor (which is, quite naturally, dictated more by your knowledge of the world external to and independent from the Bible than by anything actually in the text). It is simply "the circle of the Earth", and the world circle where the 3-D ball was available.

We agreed something quite different to what you've concluded. As for the rest of your post:

The talking snake is spoken of in a very ordinary way. Which admittedly makes it a bit of a head scratcher. But, that is not ground to lump it in with all the other distinct literary forums. Now, it is certainly convenient to do so, but that is hardly justification. Most so-called modern scholarship is scholarship of convenience on this point.

In a mixed metaphor form, one has to determine where the boundaries lie. Jesus said "This is my body." If it wasn't really Jesus in miniature he was eating, is Jesus therefore not at a table, not speaking, not with the Apostles or was he really referring to a future really heavy trip of free love and acid in Haight Asbury in 1968, involving a guy with a long beard? The presence of some metaphor does free you from the need to draw a boundary based upon what the text says.

I still struggle with the talking snake. But, if you use Juvenissum very apt commentary above, we have the following literal events: talking, talking to a woman, the woman is Eve, temptation is in view, the one talking is evil. Now, what is a snake? And what is the curse?

Does the ground grow thorns. There's a literal curse. Do snakes have legs? Vestigial at best. Not easy stuff.

Juvenissum made what seems to me to be an excellent catch. Paul says the serpent is transformed. Does that mean that all you have to complain about is that Genesis does not announce a transformation when the word for an ordinary reptile is used?

What exactly is a "transformation"? Does it have scales and a forked tongue? How do you rule out that possibility?

Here's a different question. Why does this beast no go on its belly?

There is a relationship between forbidden "fruit" and the curse of agriculture among the thorns and stones of the earth.

The nature of angels in Gen. 6 (and Jude) seeking embodiment for improper purposes still bothers me in this respect. Note that good angels are often referred to as "men" in appearance. Satan, not so, as far as I can remember. Something messed up seemed to have happened with Satan in terms of his flesh, and yet he can carry Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple and high mountains. Somehow he can present himself before Gods' Court to prosecute Job. Weird stuff deserving of caution.

How about the following radical, subversive, powerful suggestion:

Maybe God actually wants us to use what we know from science about the physical world to interpret the Bible.

"No way! You mean, we can use our knowledge about the world God created to understand how to read the Bible God wrote?"

Indeed.

During Holy Communion, the bread and wine obviously does not transmute into typical, gooey flesh and blood. (Either that, or the Church has been missing the magic formula for two millenia, or "once in a while flesh and blood get to look a whole lot like bread and wine" as the Catholic Church arcanely teaches.) Therefore, "this is my body" must be a metaphor.

Snakes obviously don't have legs today. They also, fairly obviously, do not literally eat dust, or universally get trampled by people. Therefore the curse in Genesis 3 towards "the serpent" probably isn't directed at an actual genetic ancestor of modern snakes. At most, it uses the characteristics of modern snakes to illustrate the spiritual characteristics of the age-old Enemy, much like medieval artists used (obviously fictional) haloes to depict the holiness of saints and spiritual beings.

As for the cursed ground, surely Genesis 3 again means more than just agriculture. If all goes well with my education, I will never have to till land, plant seed, harvest crops, or deal with government production quotas to earn a living. The only time thorns will ever bother me is if I'm handling roses to give to a special girl, and that's hardly a career-breaking, life-threatening emergency. Or when eating durians. Ok, not being able to open a durian is officially very bad. But I think I have made the point. Have I, and the millions of office-bound workers worldwide, escaped the curse of Adam and repealed its effects in our lives?

The Bible God wrote lives in the world God created, not the factless vacua of speculation crafted by recent fundamentalists.
 
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gluadys

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At some point we really need a discussion of what metaphor is and why no discussion of metaphysical entities (God. Satan, angels, etc.) can take place in anything other than metaphorical language.

As for the snake in Eden, it is interesting that we do not get any explicit scriptural indication of its metaphorical identity in the Old Testament. Yet Jewish commentary, which does not appeal to Corinthians or Revelation still has no difficulty identifying the serpent as a metaphor, although Gen 3:15 is not considered a Messianic text.

busterdog said:
In a mixed metaphor form, one has to determine where the boundaries lie.

Actually, the notion of boundaries is problematical. Throughout the text the elements are both literal and metaphorical. It is not as if there are boundaries within the story such that one sentence is literal and another metaphorical and never the twain shall meet.

The boundaries are the boundaries of the story itself. Within the story all is literal. External to the story all is metaphorical.

So the story presents the snake simply as a snake, albeit one that talks. And nothing more is said on the matter until we get to the New Testament. But the New Testament interprets the story from outside, so here we get the indications of metaphor which do not exist in the context of the story itself.

Yet that the story is metaphor was obvious to commentators before the NT text existed. All the NT does is point to a particular metaphorical interpretation.
 
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busterdog

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At some point we really need a discussion of what metaphor is and why no discussion of metaphysical entities (God. Satan, angels, etc.) can take place in anything other than metaphorical language.

I see that you recognize the problem.

As for the snake in Eden, it is interesting that we do not get any explicit scriptural indication of its metaphorical identity in the Old Testament. Yet Jewish commentary, which does not appeal to Corinthians or Revelation still has no difficulty identifying the serpent as a metaphor, although Gen 3:15 is not considered a Messianic text.

Not very straightforward, is it.



Actually, the notion of boundaries is problematical. Throughout the text the elements are both literal and metaphorical.

A problem for all of us. Also, the Hebrew charcters have metaphorical and symbolic value. YHVH is hands behold, nails behold. So, within sentences, words and characters, there is a mixture of devices. That there is a mixture, however, doesn't make it all relative, as others might suggest, it just makes it hard work to think through it.
 
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busterdog

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Wow! Did "we all agree" this in some parallel universe?

Whatever. You already moved on to "this is my body, which works just fine to illustrte the point.
How about the following radical, subversive, powerful suggestion:

Maybe God actually wants us to use what we know from science about the physical world to interpret the Bible.

Works great as a "maybe". Its just a lot harder to "prove."

"No way! You mean, we can use our knowledge about the world God created to understand how to read the Bible God wrote?"

Indeed.

Begging the question about what your rules are going to be. The repeated refrain is that modern critical methods that prefer metaphor are not demonstrable more sound as literary criticism. They are only more sound following the majority view in modern science.

The Word was written for people grounded in a certain worldview. It will appeal to it, inevitably. The very hebrew letters do so.

The big question is what do you do with the clear indication that Scripture demands elsewhere that we also infer a radical break with our worldview and sensibilities. It explicit refers to validation outside of human sensibility. Even you will admit that this is true. The question is, how much does it prove when we get to Genesis?

Again, you have to draw a boundary. Assuming that is easy would be assuming for the sake of convenience. Finding a metaphor in Pslams, or in Gen. 3, doesn't mean you can just pick them wereever based upon what science tells you is possible.

I am not seeing either a clear or reasonable boundary in your criticism.

Therefore, "this is my body" must be a metaphor.

And, as noted, how many metaphors are in that sentence? Is Jesus just "everyman"? No. So, what has been proven?

By the way, there is probably a legal reality, not just a vague literary allusion to the idea of kinship or mutuality here. This is certainly no simple metaphor.
 
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gluadys

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I see that you recognize the problem.

I recognize a problem. Possibly not the same one you do.

Not very straightforward, is it.

Actually, I think it is quite straightforward. I think a lot of resistance to identifying metaphor comes from the perception that metaphor is difficult to understand and easily twisted into anything one wants to hear. I don't think that perception is very accurate. In fact, literary images are surprisingly stable over many centuries.

A problem for all of us.

A problem or an opportunity?

Also, the Hebrew charcters have metaphorical and symbolic value. YHVH is hands behold, nails behold.

By one interpretation, but it is not the only valid interpretation. Other meanings are not cancelled out by this one.

So, within sentences, words and characters, there is a mixture of devices. That there is a mixture, however, doesn't make it all relative, as others might suggest, it just makes it hard work to think through it.

And hard work is rewarded, no?
 
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HypoTypoSis

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The nature of angels in Gen. 6 (and Jude) seeking embodiment
No where (that I'm aware of) does scripture equate fallen angels with demons nor does it state evil angels (except for Satan [who technically is not an "angel" per se], Judas and the antichrist) indwell men. This is a presupposition made by commentators.

Angels have no need for indwelling of earthy flesh.

Demons, on the other hand, do have the need for indwelling human flesh for it is they that are uncomfortable even, perhaps, painful without a fleshy host as is relayed in story of the demoniac and swine; all of which indicates two very separate entities. One which was and is spirit in nature and the other whose origins are earthy and, according to early Jewish writings, are trapped in the 'void' (as spoken of in scripture) between heaven and earth.

Which brings us to just what is the source of the demons origins. Scripture, in very many places, invariably point back to Genesis 6:4.
 
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busterdog

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Even if I didn't already know you were a lawyer, I could probably guess your profession by way of your writing, busterdog. ;)

Should I be thanking you for that backhanded compliment?

In my profession, I can never tell.

I was once told I didn't seem like a lawyer, by another lawyer, because I didn't seem to love money enough. That was a compliment.
 
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busterdog

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No where (that I'm aware of) does scripture equate fallen angels with demons nor does it state evil angels (except for Satan [who technically is not an "angel" per se], Judas and the antichrist) indwell men. This is a presupposition made by commentators.

Angels have no need for indwelling of earthy flesh.

Demons, on the other hand, do have the need for indwelling human flesh for it is they that are uncomfortable even, perhaps, painful without a fleshy host as is relayed in story of the demoniac and swine; all of which indicates two very separate entities. One which was and is spirit in nature and the other whose origins are earthy and, according to early Jewish writings, are trapped in the 'void' (as spoken of in scripture) between heaven and earth.

Which brings us to just what is the source of the demons origins. Scripture, in very many places, invariably point back to Genesis 6:4.

I have heard people distinguish fallen angels and demons. I presume they are correct, but what do I know?

As for what angels, need, and apart from what Gen. 6 says, we have this comparison to the sexual sin of Sodom:

Jud 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire
They seem to seek embodiment.
 
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