If you need God for Morality, why are Atheists so underrepresented in prison pop.?

[LittleNipper]

Why is "Atheists" in inverted commas, and why have you equated atheism with anarchism?

I equate "Atheism" as something that really does not exist. People who call themselves atheists are agnostics at best. A person who shakes his fist at GOD has a very hard time in my book pretending GOD does not exist.

 

[LittleNipper]

Arguably, less education means less worldly knowledge, which means less questioning of one's faith. This is supposed to be a virtue, I think. Lucky, that!



I don't think we need a study to prove that...

I don't know, I note not a few very gullible people right here. Ignorance is not confined to mere jail cells.

 

[cantata]

I equate "Atheism" as something that really does not exist. People who call themselves atheists are agnostics at best. A person who shakes his fist at GOD has a very hard time in my book pretending GOD does not exist.

Atheists do not "shake their fists at GOD". They simply disbelieve in the existence of gods. Agnostics hold the view that nothing can be known of the existence of gods. Technically one may be both an atheist and an agnostic, since atheism describes one's personal beliefs about the supernatural, while agnosticism is an epistemological position about the availability of knowledge of the supernatural realm.

Someone who believed in gods and was angry with them, or believed that they should not be worshipped, might be better described as an anti-theist. But an atheist cannot be an anti-theist because an atheist believes in no gods with whom to be angry.

It may be difficult for you to imagine disbelieving in gods, but it's hard for me to imagine believing in them, and I don't deny that Christians, Muslims or Hindus exist. Please try to walk a mile in other people's shoes before you claim that they are lying about their personal convictions.

I don't know, I note not a few very gullible people right here. Ignorance is not confined to mere jail cells.

No one ever claimed that it was.

You did not explain why you brought up anarchy. Atheism and anarchy are very different things.

 

[Morcova]

I equate "Atheism" as something that really does not exist. People who call themselves atheists are agnostics at best. A person who shakes his fist at GOD has a very hard time in my book pretending GOD does not exist.

I don't shake my fist at your god anymore than you shake your fist at zeus.


Why would someone shake their fists at what they believe to be imaginary people?

 

[Jacey]

I equate "Afairyism" as something that really does not exist. People who call themselves afairyists are agnostics at best. A person who shakes his fist at fairies has a very hard time in my book pretending fairies does not exist.

hm.

 

[quatona]

Maybe someone has statistics to back up their claim?

I was talking about you and your claim.

I'd say more likely this answer is fairly self evident.

Ah, self-evident. So you don´t have anything to back it up?

To see where any disparage might or might not be, one need only see other arguments regarding the so-called professor discrepancy so often used to justify atheistic beliefs.

So, do those who make those claims, back them up, so that you could provide at least those statistics?

It is doubtful that the exact study you are looking for even exists, because it would be a study of a mere curiosity.

I have been asking for at least three different studies for three different assertions your idea is founded upon, all of which would be of societal relevance.

Thereby, the claims of the OP cannot be subject to reasonable discussion, if those gathered for discussion cannot derive reasonable conclusions from other available sources, and the question itself becomes a farce based upon how strongly those gathered deny that a particular point is simply attributed to positive assertion.

Sorry, I fail to understand what you are trying to say here. If it is an important point, would you please rephrase it for me?

 

[quatona]

By the way, number 2, in which you close your eyes

It´s more like I am trying to look closer into the matter.

and doubt the wealth and educational discrepancy between those who are in prison and those who are not

Had someone claimed the opposite, I would have asked as well. It´s simply that I don´t believe such things just because a self-appointed authority makes an unsupported ex-cathedra claim. It´s well possible that there is a correlation. I just want to see the evidence.

is fairly telling as to your motivation for denying the wisdom of my answer.

Mindreading and appeal to one´s own wisdom in an attempt to distract from the apparent fact that you can´t back up your claims is not really a convincing contribution to the discussion.

 

[LittleNipper]

I don't shake my fist at your god anymore than you shake your fist at zeus.


Why would someone shake their fists at what they believe to be imaginary people?

I don't talk or ask questions about Zeus. You seem to be hung-up here though.

 

[cantata]

I don't talk or ask questions about Zeus. You seem to be hung-up here though.

If a whole load of ancient Greeks turned up and started trying to make laws in your country based on the commandments of Zeus, do you think you'd start asking questions then?

 

[LittleNipper]

hm.

Not polite to misquote people. That is highly disrespectful and rude. You may paraphrase but not misquote if you desire to be respected yourself.

 

[LittleNipper]

If a whole load of ancient Greeks turned up and started trying to make laws in your country based on the commandments of Zeus, do you think you'd start asking questions then?

Straw men work both ways. The ancient Greeks are no more, and there were likely some among them that converted to Judaism. I cannot imagine that such was unheard of. Also it must be understood, that many "intellectual" Greeks accepted the "gods" to be little more than a social/city formality.

 

[Jacey]

Not polite to misquote people. That is highly disrespectful and rude. You may paraphrase but not misquote if you desire to be respected yourself.

Why is afairyism your religion?

 

[cantata]

Straw men work both ways. The ancient Greeks are no more, and there were likely some among them that converted to Judaism. I cannot imagine that such was unheard of. Also it must be understood, that many "intellectual" Greeks accepted the "gods" to be little more than a social/city formality.

You need to learn the difference between a straw man and an analogy. You said you didn't ask questions about Zeus. I asked you if you would ask questions if some people who genuinely believed in Zeus started trying to make laws in your country which would force you to change your way of life or deprive you of your rights. This was to help you to imagine how it feels for an atheist to live in a country where Christian doctrine frequently has an effect on political and legal issues. I was not suggesting that this was a situation which would actually arise. Also, I'm not sure what the ancient Greeks' conversion or failure to convert to Judaism has to do with anything at all.

Unfortunately, I credited you with more imagination than you are displaying here, so let's try this, instead:

Suppose some Hindus came to your country and tried to make laws based on the precepts of their holy texts - laws which happened to infringe on some rights you believe you are entitled to, or which would force you to change your way of life. Would you start asking questions about their deities (in whom I presume you do not believe) if that happened? Would you start to question their ethics and their principles?

What if the Flying Spaghetti Monster acquired a huge following and his followers became a significant political lobby? Would you then not question the evidence for the existence of their deity, the basis for their ethical policy, and so on?

I am asking you to display some empathy, to try to imagine what it is like for other people. This is often challenging, but it can be very rewarding.

 

[fated]

What's the average IQ in prisons? Is it lower than the IQ of the general population? It wouldn't surprise me if it were.

If so, remember that as IQ increases, so does the chance of leaving religion behind. See e.g. this and this. (Not the best sources, but there are many more out there.) Therefore it could have more to do with a correlation between crime and intelligence than religion and morality.

However, I do believe that religion doesn't make you more moral. The religious and the non-religious, globally speaking, seem to be pretty much on an even keel, in moral terms.

We'll use this to further the point without need to discuss the relevance of sources you may or may not decide to like. If you accept this, then I assert that it can also be used, without contradictory evidence to show a relative increase in atheism among those with more wealth and education. We also need to explore the positive assertion in order to further understand what we are dealing with:

"Mixed science and the positive assertion:"

Assume a marble resting of the surface of a desk.

1) What is the probability (P) of the marble passing through the surface of the desk as the time frame (T) approaches infinity?

Suppose one scientist in his search for the answer collects evidence spanning 10,000 year of experience and there is not one incidence of this occurrence. He therefore concludes that his experiment shows that the probability is “undefined.”

Suppose another scientist upon placing a marble on the surface of the desk sees it pass through the surface of the desk. He has collected a total of less than one second of evidence, and yet concludes that the probability of the occurrence equals “1” over the given time frame.

2) Describe the probability (P) of the marble passing through the desks surface as the marble’s surface area (A) approaches “0.”

 

[cantata]

We'll use this to further the point without need to discuss the relevance of sources you may or may not decide to like. If you accept this, then I assert that it can also be used, without contradictory evidence to show a relative increase in atheism among those with more wealth and education.

I think there is a relative increase in atheism among those with more education, yes. Education tends to come with wealth.

Whose arguments are you addressing?

 

[fated]

I was talking about you and your claim.

Ah, self-evident. So you don´t have anything to back it up?

So, do those who make those claims, back them up, so that you could provide at least those statistics?
I have been asking for at least three different studies for three different assertions your idea is founded upon, all of which would be of societal relevance.
Sorry, I fail to understand what you are trying to say here. If it is an important point, would you please rephrase it for me?

This one.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

What's the average IQ in prisons? Is it lower than the IQ of the general population? It wouldn't surprise me if it were.

If so, remember that as IQ increases, so does the chance of leaving religion behind. See e.g. this and this. (Not the best sources, but there are many more out there.) Therefore it could have more to do with a correlation between crime and intelligence than religion and morality.

However, I do believe that religion doesn't make you more moral. The religious and the non-religious, globally speaking, seem to be pretty much on an even keel, in moral terms.

...

 

[Morcova]

I don't talk or ask questions about Zeus.

Exactly, and I care not a wit about your god, it's his followers who are the problem.

 

[gwenmead]

My best friend spent a decade in the klink. She has some interesting stories indeed. She has noted to me that prison ministries favor Christianity, at least in our state, so prisoners tend to have more access to Christian materials, pastors, and so on. She has also noted that actively Christian prisoners receive more privileges than nonreligious ones.

The implication, of course, is that many prisoners "convert" because it earns them more freedoms in the system, and because Christianity is what they have access to. This could certainly skew the current data about there being fewer atheists in prisons, if it could be demonstrated that prisoners convert out of expediency rather than genuine faith. If so, there could be folks who act Christian but are privately atheists.

But I don't know how one would measure that, or if anyone has ever done so. So maybe it's irrelevant.

 

[Jacey]

I'm still curious why LittleNipper practices afairyism. Or maybe he is a fairyist and believes in fairies. I just want to know which of those two religions he believes in.