We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[itsfinished]

(Luke 22:36-38) “But now if you have a purse, take it; if you have a haversack, do the same; if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one, because I tell you these words of scripture have to be fulfilled in me; He let himself be taken for a criminal, Yes, what scripture says about me is even now reaching its fulfillment.’ Lord,’ they said’ there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘That is enough!”

(Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly. Also,

K. The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.

Jerusalem Bible: J. The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.

LoL was what I said worthy of such a long post?! I simply said your signature doesn't match your attitude. If you believe the word of God then you should live it. That's correct, is it not?
A question I have already asked of folks is this.
Can anyone show me in scripture where killing a man, (self-defense or not) is the same thing as loving him?
I've noted some of the reactions on the board. They seem to be self righteous reactions such as the scribes and PH's had when Jesus gave them commandments that differed from those they had been accustomed. What I have said are the words of Jesus. You don't call me a liar but you call Jesus one.
There are some things that Giver said that I don't agree with.
My apologies Giver, but some things you said do seem to be your opinion and not strictly from the word. HOWEVER............the theme of this post is asolutely, 100 percent positively, the truth.
If we put Government into our religion then we have another God. Who do we pledge our allegiance? Can't serve two masters. Do we believe in the marriage or union of the same sex? Our Government does. That tells me something really important. If 'serving' our Government is our duty to God then wouldn't it make sense that God would place only devout Christians in office? Well here is some news, satan is pulling their strings. Don't believe that? Do some research.

Sorry I posted as if this is only to you. It's to anyone that reads it. Examine your hearts whether you be of God or not. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Satan knows God and he fears him. Know God, and fear him. What would you give in exchange for your soul. It's our duty to lay down our lives, not take someone elses.

Shields up! : )

 

[itsfinished]

I actually quoted the wrong person.

 

[fated]

Fascinating question. I could point out that killing a person may stop them from committing a sin... you could say decrease the grievousness of it, if, say they were trying to kill someone.

BUT, in actuallity the act of self-defense is based in defiance of the Enemy (Satan and his minions) and love for your neighbor (the poor and oppressed).

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Sounds like human wisdom to me. Can you show us scripture where Jesus said that?

(1 Corinthians 1:19-21) “As scripture says: I shall destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing all the learning of the learned. Where are the philosophers now? Where are the scribes? Where are any of our thinkers today? Do you see now how God has shown up the foolishness of human wisdom? If it was God’s wisdom that human wisdom should not know God, it was because God wanted to save those who have faith through the foolishness of the message that we preach.”

Uh, God works through people all throughout the OT and NT. Are you attacking my "wisdom" now? Did the jesus in your head tell you to do it? Did david follow God's will by sitting around and watching the philistines taunt his God? How about moses, did he sit and watch as the egyptians held his people in slavery? Abraham, did he put his son on the altar as a sacrifice or not? What about the israelite army? Were they wrong to follow God's command into battle? You do realize that Jesus is God, right? There are justified acts of violence.

All I keep seeing in this discussion is "We rely on God etc etc", what about when He is relying on YOU?



Do you realize that you are implying that anyone who is in the military or police force/security are not in Christ. You should be thankful to them for fighting (and many sacrificing their own lives) for what this country has, freedom.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Fascinating question. I could point out that killing a person may stop them from committing a sin... you could say decrease the grievousness of it, if, say they were trying to kill someone.

BUT, in actuallity the act of self-defense is based in defiance of the Enemy (Satan and his minions) and love for your neighbor (the poor and oppressed).

Thats the essence of the argument. The thread is titled 'we are not to hurt anyone for any reason", which is just ridiculous. If i see a maniac waving a knife at people and I have the ability to tackle him and put him on the ground, should I? According to the OP, I'd be in sin if I bruised him or if he scraped his knee.

 

[itsfinished]

If you live by anything in the law of the old testament, then you are obligated to live by the whole law. So for those that continue to quote from the law of the old testament, you are prolly in big trouble with the animal activists of our Government. : )

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

If you live by anything in the law of the old testament, then you are obligated to live by the whole law. So for those that continue to quote from the law of the old testament, you are prolly in big trouble with the animal activists of our Government. : )

Could you explain what you are talking about. Are you saying that Jesus gives us a free pass to do whatever we want? Living by the law is alot different than relying on the law for your salvation.

 

[itsfinished]

Could you explain what you are talking about. Are you saying that Jesus gives us a free pass to do whatever we want? Living by the law is alot different than relying on the law for your salvation.

Nope, it sounds like 'you' are saying Jesus gives us a free pass to do what we want. Jesus gave us something free though, it's grace. But nothing else is free or he wouldn't have said to count the costs of our eternal life. Folks need to wake up and really question who they are following. Is it man, or God?

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Nope, it sounds like 'you' are saying Jesus gives us a free pass to do what we want. Jesus gave us something free though, it's grace. But nothing else is free or he wouldn't have said to count the costs of our eternal life. Folks need to wake up and really question who they are following. Is it man, or God?

Well to the OP, he claimed this revelation by personal vision of Jesus which led him to make the statement. The bible does not teach complete pacifism especially in the context of when someone needs your help. What kind of sense does it make really? By the standards set by Giver, all police and all military would be in sin just for doing what they do (knowing someone has to, because if we were all super-pacifists then guess what? no more america)

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Folks need to wake up and really question who they are following. Is it man, or God?

Folks need to wake up and really question whether they are following the teachings of scripture or just following 4 random verses plucked out and ignoring the rest.

 

[Giver]

Uh, God works through people all throughout the OT and NT. Are you attacking my "wisdom" now? Did the jesus in your head tell you to do it? Did david follow God's will by sitting around and watching the philistines taunt his God? How about moses, did he sit and watch as the egyptians held his people in slavery? Abraham, did he put his son on the altar as a sacrifice or not? What about the israelite army? Were they wrong to follow God's command into battle? You do realize that Jesus is God, right? There are justified acts of violence.

All I keep seeing in this discussion is "We rely on God etc etc", what about when He is relying on YOU?
He is relying on me to do as I’m told, to obey him.



Do you realize that you are implying that anyone who is in the military or police force/security are not in Christ. You should be thankful to them for fighting (and many sacrificing their own lives) for what this country has, freedom.

I have served five years in the US Armed forces. I considered my self a Christian and was, just not one who knew God. I only knew of God. When he introduced himself to me and started teaching me about him, that is when I started to know him.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I have served five years in the US Armed forces. I considered my self a Christian and was, just not one who knew God. I only knew of God. When he introduced himself to me and started teaching me about him, that is when I started to know him.

so my statement about your position was correct, then? How do you know God better now than you did then?

 

[Giver]

so my statement about your position was correct, then? How do you know God better now than you did then?

Until I was in my forties the only teaching about God came from man. Jesus called me to his ministry. I asked him what seminary to attend. He told me ” NO! Don’t read about me. I will teach you about me.” That is when I started to know God.

 

[Zecryphon]

Until I was in my forties the only teaching about God came from man. Jesus called me to his ministry. I asked him what seminary to attend. He told me ” NO! Don’t read about me. I will teach you about me.” That is when I started to know God.

Why do you think Jesus would want to keep you away from seminary? Seminaries are where people go to learn about Jesus in-depth and explore and learn the intricacies of properly teaching the faith and the Bible. Why do you think Jesus would have a problem with that?

 

[Giver]

Why do you think Jesus would want to keep you away from seminary? Seminaries are where people go to learn about Jesus in-depth and explore and learn the intricacies of properly teaching the faith and the Bible. Why do you think Jesus would have a problem with that?

(1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”
(Hebrews 8:7-13) “If that first covenant had been without a fault, there would have been no need for a second one to replace it. And in fact God does find fault with them; he says: See, the days are coming-it is the Lord who speaks-when I will establish a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, but not a covenant like the one I made with their ancestors on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. They abandoned that covenant of mine, and so I on my side deserted them. It is the Lord who speaks. No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind. By speaking of a new covenant, he implies that the first one is already old. Now anything old only gets more antiquated until in the end it disappears.”

Carefully read the preceding verses, you may be able to accept my answer if you have a good understanding of them.

We learn math, language, history, etc., by going to school and having others teach us. We have become so accustomed to learning in this manner that it has been carried over to learning about God. Paul told us we couldn’t learn about Jesus that way.

The spiritual aspect of Christianity has almost gone away. It has become so unusual that when I say Jesus speaks to me, people believe I’m hearing voices and am going out of my mind. When a group of friends asked my brother where I was, he answered, “You mean my crazy brother”. The spiritual part of coming to God is just not accepted by most people.

I believe there are many reasons this happened. The main one at this time I believe is control. People have gone to seminaries of different denominations and are taught to accept that denomination’s point of view. These people are convinced what they learned is the truth. Now if some one through the Spirit of God comes and says differently, this threatens their belief.

 

[Zecryphon]

(1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”
(Hebrews 8:7-13) “If that first covenant had been without a fault, there would have been no need for a second one to replace it. And in fact God does find fault with them; he says: See, the days are coming-it is the Lord who speaks-when I will establish a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, but not a covenant like the one I made with their ancestors on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. They abandoned that covenant of mine, and so I on my side deserted them. It is the Lord who speaks. No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind. By speaking of a new covenant, he implies that the first one is already old. Now anything old only gets more antiquated until in the end it disappears.”

Carefully read the preceding verses, you may be able to accept my answer if you have a good understanding of them.

We learn math, language, history, etc., by going to school and having others teach us. We have become so accustomed to learning in this manner that it has been carried over to learning about God. Paul told us we couldn’t learn about Jesus that way.

The spiritual aspect of Christianity has almost gone away. It has become so unusual that when I say Jesus speaks to me, people believe I’m hearing voices and am going out of my mind. When a group of friends asked my brother where I was, he answered, “You mean my crazy brother”. The spiritual part of coming to God is just not accepted by most people.

I believe there are many reasons this happened. The main one at this time I believe is control. People have gone to seminaries of different denominations and are taught to accept that denomination’s point of view. These people are convinced what they learned is the truth. Now if some one through the Spirit of God comes and says differently, this threatens their belief.

"Carefully read the preceding verses, you may be able to accept my answer if you have a good understanding of them."

Truth is what determines if I accept a person's answer.

We learn math, language, history, etc., by going to school and having others teach us. We have become so accustomed to learning in this manner that it has been carried over to learning about God. Paul told us we couldn’t learn about Jesus that way.

That's interesting because that's how Paul learned about Jesus. He had others teach him. The apostles learned about Jesus for three and a half years, by sitting and listening to parables and learning at the feet of Jesus. It's been said that those years with Jesus were a form of seminary. What's going on in seminary now that is so different?
"The spiritual aspect of Christianity has almost gone away. It has become so unusual that when I say Jesus speaks to me, people believe I’m hearing voices and am going out of my mind."

No, it's when you say Jesus sat next to you on the couch and taught you the Bible that people think you're nuts. It's when you say Jesus said (insert statement here) and it contradicts scripture that people think you're nuts.

"When a group of friends asked my brother where I was, he answered, “You mean my crazy brother”. The spiritual part of coming to God is just not accepted by most people."

Is your brother a Christian? The world views Christians as being crazy.

I believe there are many reasons this happened. The main one at this time I believe is control. People have gone to seminaries of different denominations and are taught to accept that denomination’s point of view.

People are taught to study the scriptures among other things at seminary. But if by your reasoning the above is true, then the best place to learn about Christ would be at a non-denominational seminary, as they are not bound to any denomination-specific doctrine and just study the word of God as led by the Holy Spirit. There's this anti-seminary vibe among a lot of Christians because they think that the Holy Spirit is not present in a seminary or can not be present in a seminary, simply because it's a seminary.

These people are convinced what they learned is the truth. Now if some one through the Spirit of God comes and says differently, this threatens their belief.

Their belief is only threatened if what you say can be proven to be true, while keeping the scriptures you are using in context. A lot of times you take scriptures out of context and make them fit your belief. The very thing you probably think others do as well. So their belief is the same as yours, you both believe what you have been taught is true. The measuring stick by which the truth about Christ, God and the Holy Spirit is judged is by the scriptures as revealed by God Himself.

 

[Giver]

"Carefully read the preceding verses, you may be able to accept my answer if you have a good understanding of them."

Truth is what determines if I accept a person's answer.



That's interesting because that's how Paul learned about Jesus. He had others teach him.
(Galatians 1:11-12) “The fact is, brothers, and I want you to realize this, the Good News I preached is not a human message, that I was given by men, it is something I learnt only through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

The apostles learned about Jesus for three and a half years, by sitting and listening to parables and learning at the feet of Jesus.
You are right the apostles had three years of setting and having Jesus teach them. You should remember Jesus is God. Now even though Jesus taught them for three years he knew that with out the Holy Spirit they would not really understand. (John 16:6-8) “Yet you are sad at heart because I have told you this. Still, I must tell you the truth: it is for your own good that I am going because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will show the world how wrong it was, about sin, and about who was in the right, and about judgment; about sin:”
(John 16:13) “But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come.”

It's been said that those years with Jesus were a form of seminary. What's going on in seminary now that is so different?
"The spiritual aspect of Christianity has almost gone away. It has become so unusual that when I say Jesus speaks to me, people believe I’m hearing voices and am going out of my mind."

No, it's when you say Jesus sat next to you on the couch and taught you the Bible that people think you're nuts. It's when you say Jesus said (insert statement here) and it contradicts scripture that people think you're nuts.
I have never said anything that contradicts the Word of God.





Is your brother a Christian? The world views Christians as being crazy.
I was brought up Catholic and he is Catholic. Now some people don’t think Catholic is Christian, but we thought we were Christian.



People are taught to study the scriptures among other things at seminary. But if by your reasoning the above is true, then the best place to learn about Christ would be at a non-denominational seminary, as they are not bound to any denomination-specific doctrine and just study the word of God as led by the Holy Spirit. There's this anti-seminary vibe among a lot of Christians because they think that the Holy Spirit is not present in a seminary or can not be present in a seminary, simply because it's a seminary.




Their belief is only threatened if what you say can be proven to be true, while keeping the scriptures you are using in context. A lot of times you take scriptures out of context and make them fit your belief. The very thing you probably think others do as well. So their belief is the same as yours, you both believe what you have been taught is true. The measuring stick by which the truth about Christ, God and the Holy Spirit is judged is by the scriptures as revealed by God Himself.

I am not a teacher. I am never going to convince you or anyone. My job is only to give a word, and using the Christian forums is one way I go about doing my job. My hope is that some people will see enough truth in my witness that they themselves will open up to listen to Jesus/Holy Spirit.

 

[itsfinished]

Giver, Good Luck in what you are doing. The only thing a person can do it tell folks what Jesus said. Pretty much that is it. Casting pearls before swine is all we seem to be doing these days. Telling someone about the truth and the light that already has their minds made up will come to nothing. We aren't obligated to convince..........Just to tell. It's out there and on judgment day that will be all that is required : )
To everyone else, lean not unto your own understanding, but let the spirit guide you in All things. : )

 

[Zecryphon]

I am not a teacher. I am never going to convince you or anyone. My job is only to give a word, and using the Christian forums is one way I go about doing my job. My hope is that some people will see enough truth in my witness that they themselves will open up to listen to Jesus/Holy Spirit.

So you're telling us that it's taken you 78 pages to just give a word and you're not trying to teach or convince anybody of something here? I find that hard to believe. How much truth is enough truth in your witness to convince people? Shouldn't all of your witness be true? Why do you assume that people are automatically closed to the Holy Spirit and Jesus? Particularly in a Christian forum such as this one, where the majority of people here, I would say are Christians?

 

[Zecryphon]

Giver, Good Luck in what you are doing. The only thing a person can do it tell folks what Jesus said. Pretty much that is it. Casting pearls before swine is all we seem to be doing these days. Telling someone about the truth and the light that already has their minds made up will come to nothing. We aren't obligated to convince..........Just to tell. It's out there and on judgment day that will be all that is required : )
To everyone else, lean not unto your own understanding, but let the spirit guide you in All things. : )

So the people who disagree with you are "swine"? I'll make a note of that. Thanks.