heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
If God said He abandoned that day and He designated another, would you follow that day and the practices He designated for it?
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Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)
- Thread starter k4c
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If God said He abandoned that day and He designated another, would you follow that day and the practices He designated for it?
dvd_holc
Senior Veteran
Hebrews 3:7-4:-13 and Psalm 95 are about the world to come and obeying God. Among the meanings of Sabbath is that it is a picture of the world to come. The world to come is spoken of being a Sabbath rest. The literal picture of Sabbath from the Hebrew is "Today" or "The Day". When "Today" or "The Day" is used, it is making a reference to a sabbath and the customs around the Sabbath.
Now, when Israel was in the dessert, they had 40 years of Sabbaths but yet it was spoken that they did not enter God's rest, ref Psalm 95. This was so because they broke God's commands: golden calf, the looking for manna, collecting fire wood, Moabite women, and refusing to enter into the land when God said. So then, entering into the rest is about obeying God.
There are other pictures of this in the Prophets. Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. talk about Sabbath and connect it with the consoluation of Israel out of their slavery. Jesus accomplished the end of exile and provides rest through His yoke. So then, Hebrews passage is about entering into Jesus' Sabbath rest by obeying Jesus....NOT ABOUT GIVING UP SABBATHS.
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dvd_holc
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And by the way, House of Shammai said that you have your best meal of a week on the Sabbath, but Hillel said that you should treat every day alike. This is the foundation of Paul a disciple a rabbi who was from the House of Hillel.
from Meet the Rabbis (pages 192-193):
"The Tlamud describes a number od differences between Hillel and Shammai. For example, Shammai studied the commandment, 'Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy:' for him, the holines of the day was observed by doing everything to keep it sacred. He would go to the market and buy the best foods and store them away for the Sabbath. The celebration of the day of rest, then would be made sacred by the finest meal of the week. Hillel also observed the Sabbath rest, but he wanted to stree the sacredness of all of life - by the way he lived every day. Hillel interpreted Ps 68:20 'Blessed be the Lord, day by da' - to teach that each person must uphold the reverence of living for God each day. Today is the day that one should sanctify the presence of God.* He praised God day by day and so he refused to make the Sabbath more holy by reserving the finest foods for the day of rest. David Flusser suggests that Jesus may have had this in mind when he taught His disciples to pray, 'Give us this day our daily bread' (Matt 6:11; Luke 11:3).
note *: See Young, Jewish Background to the Lord's Prayer, 23-27
from Meet the Rabbis (pages 192-193):
"The Tlamud describes a number od differences between Hillel and Shammai. For example, Shammai studied the commandment, 'Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy:' for him, the holines of the day was observed by doing everything to keep it sacred. He would go to the market and buy the best foods and store them away for the Sabbath. The celebration of the day of rest, then would be made sacred by the finest meal of the week. Hillel also observed the Sabbath rest, but he wanted to stree the sacredness of all of life - by the way he lived every day. Hillel interpreted Ps 68:20 'Blessed be the Lord, day by da' - to teach that each person must uphold the reverence of living for God each day. Today is the day that one should sanctify the presence of God.* He praised God day by day and so he refused to make the Sabbath more holy by reserving the finest foods for the day of rest. David Flusser suggests that Jesus may have had this in mind when he taught His disciples to pray, 'Give us this day our daily bread' (Matt 6:11; Luke 11:3).
note *: See Young, Jewish Background to the Lord's Prayer, 23-27
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All good points, I guess I would like to add a couple.
Here is one for all the great interpreters;
"How do you manage to interpret the word REMEMBER into FORGET?"
No great theological exercise here, just a simple answer is needed.
There isn't one is there?
Next point is that; The fourth commandment is to God what the fifth commandment is to humanity.
(and so also with the benefits)
Who is Our Eternal Parent?
How do we REMEMBER/HONOUR Him?
There is a prescription for this in scripture;
"REMEMBER the sabbath day to keep it holy......................for in six days The Lord MADE..."
There will be a class of people on judgement day who will say "Lord Lord didn't we do all these great things in Your name" and He will reply; "Depart from Me you who work lawlessness, I never knew you."
Jesus here prophecies of a class of people who will be religious and doing all sorts of works and taking His name on their lips and who He will define as "workers of lawlessness".
Have you ever heard the saying;
"Better to be safe than sorry?"
But here is the catch; "if you decide to keep ALL of these commands in order to secure your salvation, you are not keeping any of them because you are viewing them as some sort of lucky charm or idol AND you are understanding God as some dictatorial exactor of vengance, thus slandering Him in your heart. What you need to do, is first get to understand God's nature through the study of Jesus as a character, then, your love for Him will result in you saying/doing ("if that pleases You My Lord, I will do it, because I just live for Your love and the joy of loving you"
The beauty of this, is you can't get away with it if you are faking, and you can't get it wrong if you are for real.
Brilliant isn't He?
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you quote 'meet the rabbis' and extract an argument to forget what God said "remember", making out as if Jesus died in order to do away with honouring Our Creator by "remember"ing His own prescription. All this on the assumption that the keeping of the sabbath is tied in with redemption. This is a flawed argument. WHY?
Because the seventh day was set aside for holy use BEFORE ever sin entered the equation. It was established as a memorial. About the same time as sabbath keeping was established (by God), marriage was also established. Did Jesus nail marriage to the cross also? Just because some rabbi was enough of a peanut to go to pains to demonstrate that what God made holy was no more holy than any other thing, does not make either a good arguement or a good quote. It is as logical as saying that because a young bloke fell out of a window on a saturday night, during a long sermon sunday has become the new sabbath. How flawed is that. Or what about this one; Jesus says He is Lord of the sabbath, but the pope says sunday is the Lord's day, so sunday it is. No way!
If/when My Lord Jesus asks me why I conducted myself as I did, I shall be able to say "Because I read it in Your word Lord AND I TRUSTED YOU."
What answer will you be giving reader???????
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Sabbath keeping is an exhausting ritual that denies the adherent the true meaning of sabbath-repose, rest, refresh. Instead preparations must be made for the family to rise early, dress, travel, attend services, bible studies, perhaps youth activities, pot-lucks, etc. At the end of the 'day of rest' most are exhausted. Been there, done that.
owg
owg
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0WG: You obviously have no understanding of God’s way of keeping the Sabbath.
Jesus corrected the religious leaders of His time over and over about their misconceptions about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is one of God’s great gifts to man.
It’s a shame you don’t appreciate it.
Jesus corrected the religious leaders of His time over and over about their misconceptions about the Sabbath. The Sabbath is one of God’s great gifts to man.
It’s a shame you don’t appreciate it.
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I keep the Sabbath the way Jesus, Paul, and the disciples did. I rest. Notice that they met on Sunday for fellowship, instruction, etc. The reason is that they rested on the sabbath. Why would Jesus do God's work on the sabbath if God himself was resting from all his work.
- John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
- Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
owg
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Are you saying God didn't? I assert that He did say such things. And He said them explicitly.
So more directly, why aren't your following that day and the practices He designated for it, and not the seventh day sabbath?
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
You're kidding, right?
The grammar doesn't support your assertion. Most of it is present tense and not future tense. It's pointless to even attempt such an interpretation.
This expands the imagery way beyond what the Apostle's hearers could possibly, plausibly understand him to say.
The Apostle said what God meant: "... encourage one another ... while it is still called 'today' ..." He wasn't limiting our encouragement to Saturday. He was expanding it to every single day.
God would also not say the seventh day was redesignated by "today" either -- if both meant the same thing!
God spoke of the seventh day in this way ... Heb 4:4
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today," Heb 4:6-7
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there is left a Sabbath rest for the people of God Heb 4:8-9
As there's no reason for me to skip around the passage, I simply repeat what it says. God redesignated the sabbath day from the seventh day to today. This is the singular Sabbath rest left for the people of God.Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today," Heb 4:6-7
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there is left a Sabbath rest for the people of God Heb 4:8-9
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Both of these first day text do not do away with the Sabbath nor do they teach a first day gathering for worship. The first text you quoted states they were gathered for fear of the Jews, not fellowship or worship.
Your second first day quote states the reason for them continuing after the close of the Sabbath was because Paul was leaving the next day, Sunday, and they would not be seeing him again.
I can picture them all gathered together on the Sabbath, (sun set Friday to sun set Saturday). Now the close of the Sabbath is upon them, sun set Saturday, but they continue hanging out together after the Sabbath where Paul talked to them until after midnight, one guy even fell alseep and fell to his death, this is not a worship service gathering. After Paul spoke all night he then left early Sunday morning for his long journey. If the Sabbath was now changed to Sunday, Paul would have never travelled on Sunday.
Many beliefs of mainlain Christanity have come to us through Papal Rome. Beliefs such as the state of the dead, heaven or hell at death, the trinity, Sabbath change, immortal soul and many more.
Take a look at this and you will begin to understand the hatred for God's truth found in His word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Ke7Tn3uOU
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You did it all wrong. You were not resting, you were trusting in a ceremony. Look at the bible and you find Jesus at the beach sharing the word of God on the sabbath.
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What makes you think that obedient people are not saved by grace? Perhaps you interpret appreciative conduct as works intended to earn salvation. Surely this is not a legitimate accusation. Surely you have heard many sabbath keepers clearly state that they do it because they love Him and not because they are trying to establish their own saving righteousness. Accusing the obedient of not being saved by grace is just a cop out line to justify being one of the dissobedient.
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F
fli1942
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The 4th commandment is done away with. When Jesus died and we accepted Him as our Savior He came into us and made us a living Temple. We no longer have a middle man nor do we have to travel to the Temple . We are to worship him every day. However, we are not to forsake gathering together with other believers on the first day of the week.
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