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HypoTypoSis

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changes in the English language over the last 400 years there is simply no basis for translating it that way.
Oh, so you would prefer a 2008AD dictionary definition; that's even worse than any changes there may have been only 1611 years after the autographs were penned. Would you, also, prefer in another 1,000 years to use a 3008AD definition instead? Update things to fit the times even more? There's no spiritual logic in that but, rather, only human logic inherent in that concept and that will never, can never, meet God's intent.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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To update scripture (read: update God's intent to match man's desires) makes as much sense as saying God created a bunch of goo that billions of years later slimed its way out of the muck to eventually become man. But this contradicts God's Word when it specifically states God created man--not goo.
 
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busterdog

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The love of knowledge is antithetical to the love of Jesus Christ.

I will be interested to see how this goes over. It is unquestionably correct.

For many it is regarded as simply impossible that God could or would provide for their needs, big and small. According to most, we MUST live by our own wits. Now, all of us do live by our own wits to various degrees, and I am not hearing you recommend that we stop going to work, budgeting or putting the milk in the fridge (when we could leave it out for the Lord to preserve). But, you have apparently picked a fight with a mindset that REQUIRES human wisdom as the first consideration in all of our affairs. They amy now accuse you of being reckless with ordinary prudence in the way we live, which is all about a distraction from your main point. The fact is precious few individuals have any idea about what it is to truly rely upon the love of Jesus in everything.

And your point is taken about philosophy. It is useful. We all use it. But, it is no substitute for the pure truth of God. But we attempt to make that substitution all the time. It will be amusing to see whether anyone tries to justify the equivalence of philosophy with the truth taught by God.
 
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gluadys

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To update scripture (read: update God's intent to match man's desires)


You are turning things inside out. No one has suggested changing the Greek text of the NT.

It is the English translation that needs to be changed because the English language has been changed and the KJV text no longer conveys the meaning of the Greek text to readers of English translations.

The translation is updated to preserve the meaning of the Greek, not change it.



But this contradicts God's Word when it specifically states God created man--not goo.

Evolution does not contradict creation. Christians who accept the science of evolution also believe in creation. That is why we like the term "evolutionary creationists" to refer to our position.
 
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Assyrian

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Oh, so you would prefer a 2008AD dictionary definition; that's even worse than any changes there may have been only 1611 years after the autographs were penned. Would you, also, prefer in another 1,000 years to use a 3008AD definition instead? Update things to fit the times even more? There's no spiritual logic in that but, rather, only human logic inherent in that concept and that will never, can never, meet God's intent.
You are confusing the bible manuscripts with the Greek lexicons and grammars used to translate it. Modern translations are based on older manuscripts than the AV and are able to compare a much wider selection of ancient manuscripts than were available to Erasmus when he compiled the Textus Receptus in 1516.

Our dictionaries grammars and lexicons are better too, Greek scholars know much more about the koine Greek spoken spoken in the first century than Renaissance scholarship did. They also have the advantage from our point of view of translating into the English people speak today rather than an ancient form spoken almost half a millennium ago. The verse you love to quote talking about 'science' dates back to Tyndale in 1534 O Timothe save that which is geve ye to kepe and avoyde vngostly vanities of voyces and opposicios of sciece falsly so called

Is it possible that your insistence on the King James Version and rejection of modern translations is simply another tradition of men?

To update scripture (read: update God's intent to match man's desires)
Of course thinking God has appointed you as judge of all the Christians in modern bible translation committees, and condemning them without knowing the motivations of the heart, or the integrity with which they carried out their work, does not say much for the level of your arguments.

makes as much sense as saying God created a bunch of goo that billions of years later slimed its way out of the muck to eventually become man. But this contradicts God's Word when it specifically states God created man--not goo.
It says God made the earth, then he made man out of the dust of the ground, I don't see why you should characterise TE as God just creating slime.

The bible says God made us out of clay too. Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand. Does that mean I should ignore what the gynaecologist said about what happened biologically? Is there a contradiction? You rail about philosophy but you don't realise how much modern materialist philosophy has infected the way you read the bible. Is a literal interpetation the only possible meaning? What ever makes you think that?

In Genesis we are told God made Adam out of dust, we are also promised a redeemer who would step on the snake's head. Are the both to be taken literal? Does that mean Jesus was not the promised seed?


 
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theFijian

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Philosophy is man-centered, not Christ-centered.

You cannot mix the Godly with the humanly, the twain shall never meet.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


I Timothy 6:20-21 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Please stop abusing those verses, they do not say what you think they say. Again I ask you, when Paul spoke at the Areopagus (Acts 17...look it up please) did Paul use philosophy or scripture to reason with the Greeks?

Without philosophy, God-centred Christian philosophy, we have no apologetics nor any theology of any sort. You need to revisit your definition of 'philosophy' I'm afraid.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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That is why we like the term "evolutionary creationists" to refer to our position.
God created everything complete and whole without any evolvement according to the scriptures.

"our position" is, by definition, questionably in opposition to God's position as it implies more than one position.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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I will be interested to see how this goes over. It is unquestionably correct.

For many it is regarded as simply impossible that God could or would provide for their needs, big and small. According to most, we MUST live by our own wits. Now, all of us do live by our own wits to various degrees, and I am not hearing you recommend that we stop going to work, budgeting or putting the milk in the fridge (when we could leave it out for the Lord to preserve). But, you have apparently picked a fight with a mindset that REQUIRES human wisdom as the first consideration in all of our affairs. They amy now accuse you of being reckless with ordinary prudence in the way we live, which is all about a distraction from your main point. The fact is precious few individuals have any idea about what it is to truly rely upon the love of Jesus in everything.

And your point is taken about philosophy. It is useful. We all use it. But, it is no substitute for the pure truth of God. But we attempt to make that substitution all the time. It will be amusing to see whether anyone tries to justify the equivalence of philosophy with the truth taught by God.

Well said. :thumbsup: Those of the world with their philosophical ways can never understnd the things of God, it is impossible for it is like trying to compare apples to oranges, they are simply different and neither can be likened to the other. Deny it as they of the world may, tis still best to allow God's own word put it to rest, of which, they have no useful response without condemning either their own reasoning or that of God:
Romans 15:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Should any wish to argue their own humanity and reasoning against that of God is evidence in itself they are none of His as their own pride stands in their way preventing them from coming unto Him.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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Without philosophy, God-centred Christian philosophy, we have no apologetics nor any theology of any sort.

There are many "ways of life" but Christianity is not "a way of life" any more than it is "a religion". It is impossible to equate God to a prideful human love of knowledge.
 
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Mallon

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You speak of knowledge as though it is a bad thing, HypoTypoSis. And yet God would glorifies those who seek it in earnest:

Proverbs 25:2
“It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.”

I agree with you that, as Christians, we ought to seek knowledge with the intent of glorifying God with what we gain. But I hardly think that is a point worth debating, given the fact that we're all believers here. There's nothing wrong with knowledge as long as it's used to give glory to God. God didn't curse Solomon with wisdom and knowledge; He blessed him with it.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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Interest fell woefully lacking as soon as you brought up the prince of humanists, you'll have to do a lot better than that. Try scripture, not human reasoning. You'll get a lot further a lot quicker. And don't bother with the medieval English wording, that's even worse.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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we're all believers here.
Really? Would that be on this board? On this earth? In your own church? What proof have you of this? Each man's say so? Please, pre-consider your words' cud.


wisdom and knowledge
They are quite different you know. What evidence have you that man's wisdom and knowledge is the same as that of God's?
 
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theFijian

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There are many "ways of life" but Christianity is not "a way of life" any more than it is "a religion".
I didn't say anything about a 'way of life' therefore you point is completely irrelevant. Please answer the question regarding Paul and the Greeks.
It is impossible to equate God to a prideful human love of knowledge.

So this is your definition of 'philosophy'? Unsurprisingly it is quite wrong.
 
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Mallon

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Really? Would that be on this board? On this earth? In your own church? What proof have you of this? Each man's say so? Please, pre-consider your words' cud.

Why did you call me "cud"?

We're all Christians here because we all profess to be Christian. And I don't know about you, but I'm not one to judge someone's heart. So when they tell me they are a Christian, I take their word for it. In fact, on these forums, it's against the rules to do otherwise.

They are quite different you know. What evidence have you that man's wisdom and knowledge is the same as that of God's?
I never equated the two. I simply said there is nothing wrong with seeking knowledge if it brings glory to God.
 
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busterdog

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You speak of knowledge as though it is a bad thing, HypoTypoSis. And yet God would glorifies those who seek it in earnest:

Proverbs 25:2
“It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.”

I agree with you that, as Christians, we ought to seek knowledge with the intent of glorifying God with what we gain. But I hardly think that is a point worth debating, given the fact that we're all believers here. There's nothing wrong with knowledge as long as it's used to give glory to God. God didn't curse Solomon with wisdom and knowledge; He blessed him with it.

Well, brother, all true, to some extent.

The subject is enormously complicated, however, in human terms. I think Hypo acknowledges some of the issues. To me this dispute smolders beneath the surface of just about every theology created by man. It is extremely difficult to articulate. Most fail horribly. Witness much of what is said in the "faith" movement.

So, I would simply appeal to you to slow down and consider what is proposed.

As for the truth of your statement, yes, there are blessings in human knowledge. But are all blessings an unqualified good? Witness the brazen serpent of Moses -- a type of the Christ and a vehicle for healing that later had to be destroyed.

In many ways, Solomon is a type of too much of a good thing. Too many wives was one issue.

8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.

I understand your point about "glorifying God", which becomes pretty murky in application. Witness the results of Solomon's knowledge: eventually we are right back into idolatry and the Shekinah leaves the Temple Mount for good, never to return (so far). Of course, we know where Holy Spirit resides now. But that is far from a straightforward victory for the glorification of God.

There is a issue here for those who believe in an inerrant Word. The point is that the Word is far superior to the theological rehashing of the Word.

In some ways your comment really begs the question about the circumstances under which human knowledge can glorify God, without qualification or exception. I don't see that happening until the Lord returns as the kind of King that Solomon utlimately failed at being. In short, we are not capable of reliably wielding even a good thing.


Eccl 7:23 All this I tested by wisdom and I said,
"I am determined to be wise"—
but this was beyond me.
24 Whatever wisdom may be,
it is far off and most profound—
who can discover it?


Ecc 8:16 When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe man's labor on earth—his eyes not seeing sleep day or night- 17 then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.


Wisdom is good for shelter and preserves life. But, it is not salvation, though the Word is.
 
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HypoTypoSis

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I didn't say anything about a 'way of life' therefore you point is completely irrelevant. Please answer the question regarding Paul and the Greeks.

So this is your definition of 'philosophy'? Unsurprisingly it is quite wrong.

In both instances you display a lack of wisdom and understanding. That's ok, all things in their proper time and place.

As to your other-demanding-question, I'll answer that when you tell me the dispensational significance of Acts 28:28 and its Old Testament prophetical implications. Go figger. Remember what Jesus said (and why) when they acted the same way towards Him. Again, wisdom, understanding--and spiritual maturity--are paramount in such.
 
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Scotishfury09

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shernren

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In many ways, Solomon is a type of too much of a good thing. Too many wives was one issue.

8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.

I understand your point about "glorifying God", which becomes pretty murky in application. Witness the results of Solomon's knowledge: eventually we are right back into idolatry and the Shekinah leaves the Temple Mount for good, never to return (so far). Of course, we know where Holy Spirit resides now. But that is far from a straightforward victory for the glorification of God.

There is a issue here for those who believe in an inerrant Word. The point is that the Word is far superior to the theological rehashing of the Word.

In some ways your comment really begs the question about the circumstances under which human knowledge can glorify God, without qualification or exception. I don't see that happening until the Lord returns as the kind of King that Solomon utlimately failed at being. In short, we are not capable of reliably wielding even a good thing.

Eccl 7:23 All this I tested by wisdom and I said,
"I am determined to be wise"—
but this was beyond me.
24 Whatever wisdom may be,
it is far off and most profound—
who can discover it?


Ecc 8:16 When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe man's labor on earth—his eyes not seeing sleep day or night- 17 then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all his efforts to search it out, man cannot discover its meaning. Even if a wise man claims he knows, he cannot really comprehend it.


Wisdom is good for shelter and preserves life. But, it is not salvation, though the Word is.

(emphasis added)

Solomon had a lot of knowledge. Solomon fell astray. But to say that Solomon fell astray because he had a lot of knowledge is trying to pull together causation where there isn't even correlation. One might as well say that since Jesus was a carpenter and since Jesus rose from the dead, all carpenters will rise from the dead.

The fact is that the relationship between knowledge and holiness is complicated. But firstly, those who fall away are not always knowledgeable. Cain sinned. How smart was Cain, and how much science did he know? And those who are knowledgeable do not always fall away. Paul knew a lot; indeed, in Acts 17, he quotes exclusively from Greek poets whom none of us here today would know. How much of an apostate was he?

Furthermore, Solomon's knowledge included exhortations to fear God and obey Him:

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
(Proverbs 1:7 NIV)

Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
(Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 NIV)

Was Solomon really being knowledgeable in the decline of his reign? Solomon recognized in his knowledge that multiplying wives brought no pleasure; if he really had 700 wives, wouldn't he have known this after #699? Solomon recognized in his knowledge that God was the right God to worship; would he have worshipped idols if he had held to what he knew? Certainly not! It was not as he acquired knowledge that he fell; rather, it was as he rejected the knowledge that he himself had codified that he fell.

And what did Jesus do at the age of 12? He stayed in the Temple for three days while His parents were unaware that He was gone. For those three days He engaged in precisely what you denigrate as the "theological rehashing of the Word". This is the only record of Jesus' childhood (that is, after His birth and baby-hood) that we have in the Bible; Luke and the Spirit who guided him must have thought this was pretty important.

And Peter tells us:

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
(2 Peter 1:5-7 NIV)

Peter puts knowledge here on par with (and even sequentially antecedent to) half of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Doesn't sound like the love of knowledge is antithetical to the love of Jesus, is it?

As for "the Word being far superior to the theological rehashing of the Word", you simply slander what you are unaware of. You don't know a single sentence of the Bible in its original language. I used to know the shema (Deut 6:4-9) in the Hebrew, but even then I could not make any sense of it in its original language. The fact is that you have never understood a sentence of the Bible in anything other than English, and the earliest English translation you can practically use is the 1611 KJV, which means that whichever way you cut it there are sixteen centuries of "theological rehashing" between you and the Word you claim to access directly.

Or do you think the only thing you need to translate the Bible is fluency in ancient Hebrew and modern English? Cults can translate the Bible too. The Jehovah's Witnesses translate the last clause of John 1:1 as "... and the Word was a god", fundamentally changing the Trinitarian slant of the verse. Neither this nor the orthodox translation ("and the Word was God") are supported by the word order of the original. What decided between them was not just the Bible. It was in the Council of Chalcedony, and the Council of Nicaea, and all those other theological councils that brought the best of the day's philosophy to bear on the subtlest and sublimest of Scripture that Trinitarianism was decided and agreed on. It is a mark of how successful those "theological rehashings" were that Christians today are almost completely unaware of them. There are, after all, practically no Arians or Gnostics left to fight; the swords once oiled and shiny, upon which the blood of many a heresy was spilt, are now left to rust in the museum of Christian history where less and less pass and gaze each year.

But the theological fight is never finished; "of writing books there is no end"; nothing true in science can contradict anything true in Christianity, and therefore it will for God's glory always be true that some of the best Christians are scientists and some of the best scientists Christians. If you cannot personally sympathise with the effort, and if your intellectual lifeblood is too precious to spill on the front, at least do not denigrate those who fight thanklessly for the intellectual freedom of the Christian faith.
 
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