Amendment to Non-nicene Annoucement

[snoochface]

Thank you for making this change.

May I ask who came up with the compromise? I'd like to give my thanks to whomever thought it up, and if it was Lee's brain-child then I owe him an apology too.

 

[Apex]

For me this changes nothing. We still are not allowed to "promote non-nicene" beliefs. All this amendment does is attempts to appease by creating a "congregational forum" for "unorthodox" members. It is stating that if you do not believe as CF does, you are not "Christian" enough.

Also, what is the point of a congregational forum if we are not allowed to promote our own beliefs with in it?

 

[A New Dawn]

For me this changes nothing. We still are not allowed to "promote non-nicene" beliefs. All this amendment does is attempts to appease by creating a "congregational forum" for "unorthodox" members. It is stating that if you do not believe as CF does, you are not "Christian" enough.

Also, what is the point of a congregational forum if we are not allowed to promote our own beliefs with in it?

It isn't a congregational. It is a fellowship subforum. It is for all the posters in the new UT debate forum as opposed to something for one group only.

 

[Apex]

It isn't a congregational. It is a fellowship subforum. It is for all the posters in the new UT debate forum as opposed to something for one group only.

What I said still applies. How can we fellowship when we can not "promote" our beliefs (i.e. talk about our beliefs in a positive light)?

 

[jeffC]

I'm pleased with the direction this amendment takes the community. Motion in the direction of interaction and communication do much more to foster good-will and understanding, and many other fruits of the Spirit.

However I agree with 2ducklow and Apex that the matter of "promotion" needs to be well defined. Will debate be considered promotion? What about links which respond directly to the matter under discussion (on either side of an issue)?

 

[drstevej]

Good Call, LeeD.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Promotion of non-Nicene beliefs will still be covered under the rules, and members will have to be careful to avoid promoting beliefs in the fellowship and theology forums. Posts intended to inform, rather than promote, are still allowed.

Thank you for taking this positive step.

Can you give some guidance on the difference between informing and promoting?

I am sure that negative information (up to and including slander, I fear) will be considered informing, and positive information (even when posted to refute slander) will be considered promoting, at least by some moderators. This is how no-promotion rules were always interpreted before at CF.

If this is not to be the case again, what training are the mods receiving to see that they make judgments on the basis of different criteria than the criteria that have been used in the past?

Maybe we could start with a little quiz:

1. Jehovah's Witnesses are Arians.
inform [_] promote [_]

2. Arianism is the belief of Arius (fourth century) that Jesus was created by God, rather than co-eternal with God.
inform [_] promote [_]

3. Arianism is a heresy.
inform [_] promote [_]

4. Arianism is supported by the following Bible verses: (list)
inform [_] promote [_]

5. You should listen to a Jehovah's Witness sometime. You will find they actually are rational human beings.
inform [_] promote [_]

6. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, thus God created Jesus.
inform [_] promote [_]

7. Most Baptists are Nestorians.
inform [_] promote [_]

8. Nestorianism is the belief of Nestorius (fourth-fifth century) that Mary was the mother of Jesus, but not the mother of God.
inform [_] promote [_]

9. Nestorianism is a heresy.
inform [_] promote [_]

10. Nestorianism is supported by the following Bible verses: (list)
inform [_] promote [_]

11. You should listen to a Baptist sometime. You will find they actually are rational human beings.
inform [_] promote [_]

12. Mary is not the mother of God.
inform [_] promote [_]


I think that's enough. I would like to see how different staff members would evaluate the statements above. How many will take the quiz?

 

[drstevej]

What I said still applies. How can we fellowship when we can not "promote" our beliefs (i.e. talk about our beliefs in a positive light)?

Fellowship does not HAVE to be about beliefs. There were fellowship threads before. Remember BWAP's chillout thread where folks interacted on non theological issues?

I think that's what's being proposed.

RD

 

[A New Dawn]

What I said still applies. How can we fellowship when we can not "promote" our beliefs (i.e. talk about our beliefs in a positive light)?

Fellowshipping would be fellowshipping, not promoting. It would include threads that were meant for us to get to know each other that don't necessarily belong in a debate forum. Like the "What's your favorite video?" thread, or the "What kind of music do you like?" thread, etc.

 

[porterross]

Will non-Nicene promotional signatures still be allowed since they do indeed violate the rule?

 

[Casstranquility]

I never quite understood what promoting was, I had this in my "How I became a Christian" box, and it was said to be promoting, and I don't see how... maybe while people are asking about what constitutes promoting, they can tell me why this was considered promoting:

How I became a Christian/Pantheist:
I was raised as a member of the Worldwide Church of God, where I came to believe in Christ, God, and the Bible. (inform) I never 'accepted' Christ, because He came into my life without my bidding. Eventually, I left the Church I grew up in, and started to move away from the beliefs I once held. Though, as I did this, it seemed I grew closer to Christ, for He became not some historical person who died for my sins, but a living being, some One whom I loved.(inform) This came to be because I slowly accepted beliefs from other religions, which pointed toward pantheism-the belief that everything is God.(inform-accepting beliefs from other religions did point me toward pantheism) I could see that everything is energy, all interconnected, all part of One, and what could that One be but God? Who could that One be but Christ?(inform: how I see things) So, now I worship Christ as a personal manifestation of the One, filled with Love, who died to bring us all together once again.(yet again, inform, how I worship and see Christ)

So, if no one minds, please point out the promotion in this paragraph.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Fellowshipping would be fellowshipping, not promoting. It would include threads that were meant for us to get to know each other that don't necessarily belong in a debate forum. Like the "What's your favorite video?" thread, or the "What kind of music do you like?" thread, etc.

Is fellowship restricted to trivial things not related to faith?

It seems like a lot of Christians use the word that way.

 

[CaDan]

*checking in*

 

[Amoranemix]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I don't see a discussion thread for this announcement, so I'll assume we may discuss here.[/FONT]

[1] Non-Nicene Theology is renamed Unorthodox Theology and moved to the Theology forum category;
[2] A fellowship forum is created for unorthodox members as a sub-forum of Unorthodox Theology;
[3] All existing unorthodox theology discussion threads are moved to the Unorthodox Theology forum; all existing threads in the unorthodox Congregations are moved to the fellowship sub-forum.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That looks like an improvement, but I am not clear on what is going to happen. I can't find the pertinent wiki nor its snapshot, so I shall use my own definitions for levels of categorization :[/FONT]
message board --> section --> category -->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]subcategory [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]) [/FONT]subforum
For example
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]christianforums [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Non-Nicene Faiths [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Non-Nicene Theology [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Jehovah's Witnesses[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]As far as I understand[/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]All the threads in the Non-Nicene Theology category will be moved to the Non-Nicene Theology subforum[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]All threads of the Non-Nicene Congregation category are moved to the Unitarian/Non-Trinitarian subforum.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]An Unorthodox Theology subcategory is created.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Non-Nicene Theology subforum is renamend Unorthodox Theology and is moved to the Unorthodox Theology subcategory.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Unitarian/Non-Trinitarian subforum is renamed Fellowship and is moved moved to the Unorthodox Theology subcategory.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The Unorthodox Theology subcategory is moved to the Theology category.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thus we would have[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]christianforums [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Christian Faith [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Theology [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Unorthodox Theology [/FONT]-->[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] {Unorthodox Theology; Fellowship}[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Is that correct ?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Over the next month, staff will go in and clean up any promotion type posts or threads. Posts or threads older than 30 days will be left alone to scroll off the page, unless promotion is especially egregious. No violations will be issued for posts made prior to Jan. 31.

Such measures are evidence of the inferiority of the Nicene worldview and I will demote it as such. Niceneans are weak in faith.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

For me this changes nothing. We still are not allowed to "promote non-nicene" beliefs. All this amendment does is attempts to appease by creating a "congregational forum" for "unorthodox" members. It is stating that if you do not believe as CF does, you are not "Christian" enough.

If I understand correctly, you forums would be moved to The Christian Faith section. So you would be recognised as Christian.[/FONT]

Maybe we could start with a little quiz:

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Starting a wiki on it is no longer possible, but perhaps a dedicated thread on the definition of promotion would be useful.[/FONT]

Starlight : That's a good change, but they should be allowed to promote their views at least in the unorthodox theology forum and the fellowship forum in it.
A New Dawn : Why?
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Because otherwise they would be negatively discriminated. The slogan 'All people are equal.' is only commendable if you don't add to it 'But some people are more equual than others.'[/FONT]

I disagree. Discussing and promoting are two different things. You can have a good discussion without promoting. When I was unorthodox I had no problem discussing things and never got called down for promoting things.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Niceneans should then be prohibited from promoting the Nicene worldview in the Unorthodox Theology subcategory.[/FONT]

But what if the other side in a discussion (the one which is allowed to promote their beliefs) starts promoting their views instead of simply discussing it?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The unorthodox Christian could call the orthodox one on it, for example with “You are preaching” or “The forum rules do not permit me to tell the truth about this issue.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

I know you're not asking me. But, imo, because not every Christian holds to this site's ideas of what that means, for one thing. And supressing other peoples beliefs doesn't lead to conversion, it leads people to hate Christianity.

Be it hate or ridicule, Christianity has dropped on my respect scale since LeeD is in charge.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

The Bible says a lot of other things that are, frankly, ignored by people who feel that one theology is as good as another, even if it isn't Biblical. God never said "I'm OK, You're OK". He did say "Go thy way and sin no more", though.

'I am OK. You are OK.' is one of the basic principles of communication. When will God learn ?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

The goal is not FAIR. When LeeD says he does not want Non-Nicene views promoted he is making it clear that his goal is not fairness, He has a POV that he wants promoted and one he does not. Fairness isn't the yardstick, the Nicene Creed is.

Will you stop slandering LeeD please ? That's my prerogative.[/FONT]

 

[blueanjel]

I never quite understood what promoting was, I had this in my "How I became a Christian" box, and it was said to be promoting, and I don't see how... maybe while people are asking about what constitutes promoting, they can tell me why this was considered promoting:

How I became a Christian/Pantheist:
I was raised as a member of the Worldwide Church of God, where I came to believe in Christ, God, and the Bible. (inform) I never 'accepted' Christ, because He came into my life without my bidding. Eventually, I left the Church I grew up in, and started to move away from the beliefs I once held. Though, as I did this, it seemed I grew closer to Christ, for He became not some historical person who died for my sins, but a living being, some One whom I loved.(inform) This came to be because I slowly accepted beliefs from other religions, which pointed toward pantheism-the belief that everything is God.(inform-accepting beliefs from other religions did point me toward pantheism) I could see that everything is energy, all interconnected, all part of One, and what could that One be but God? Who could that One be but Christ?(inform: how I see things) So, now I worship Christ as a personal manifestation of the One, filled with Love, who died to bring us all together once again.(yet again, inform, how I worship and see Christ)

So, if no one minds, please point out the promotion in this paragraph.

the only part that imo that would be considered promoting would be the conclusions you personally reached, as if they were now truth for everyone

 

[Zippythepinhead]

So, under what category would fall a response to "Why are you a Unitarian Christian"?

Or Do you believe in the Book of Mormon? If so why? Will someone come along and slap a warning or ban on me for honestly answering?

 

[Zippythepinhead]

the only part that imo that would be considered promoting would be the conclusions you personally reached, as if they were now truth for everyone

Subjectivity can be abused very easily. My advice train staff with caution to withhold their mod powers unless there is a CLEAR violation of a rule. What is an answer to one could be heresy to another.

 

[A New Dawn]

Or Do you believe in the Book of Mormon? If so why? Will someone come along and slap a warning or ban on me for honestly answering?

It is my opinion that if the question is allowed then the answer should be allowed. If the answer would garner a warning then the question shouldn't be allowed.

 

[A New Dawn]

What is EAC?

 

[LibertyChic]

What is EAC?

EAC = Evil Atheist Conspiracy