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HuntingMan

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The earth has a finite amount of land and this land can only produce a given amount of meat or produce.
Makes one wonder, quite frankly, if these false commandments to keep pumping out children will not have a very direct impact on the great famine in the end of days.

Lets just overpopulate the world with so many people that when the dung hits the fan and there is no food to eat that we can torture as many people to starvation and disease as we possibly can :thumbsup:
 
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Calliso

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amen and amen.
Three times that I have seen in scriptures man is told to 'be fruitful and multiply.
In the beginning, after the flood and for the growth of the Hebrew nation and the 12 tribes.
Some take those instructions and seemingly make it so that now we have to ignore the intelligence GOD gave us and become baby making machines until our bodies can no longer produce offspring.
Preposterous....


Yeah I donlt get it either. :scratch:
 
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HuntingMan

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Yeah I donlt get it either. :scratch:
well, I mean, what about David and Solomon and all the wives they had ?
If we are supposed to keep relentlessly cranking out kids until death both of those men should have had countless children...*IF* they had actually believed like some preach today.
 
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NHB_MMA

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amen and amen.
Three times that I have seen in scriptures man is told to 'be fruitful and multiply.
In the beginning, after the flood and for the growth of the Hebrew nation and the 12 tribes.
Some take those instructions and seemingly make it so that now we have to ignore the intelligence GOD gave us and become baby making machines until our bodies can no longer produce offspring.
Preposterous....

Of all the arguments against contraception, "be fruitful and multiply" is the absolute worse, given the context of times in which it was stated.

I would have been kicked out of philosophy class for presenting an argument that bad. ;)
 
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Calliso

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well, I mean, what about David and Solomon and all the wives they had ?
If we are supposed to keep relentlessly cranking out kids until death both of those men should have had countless children...*IF* they had actually believed like some preach today.


And the funny thing is they likely didn;t. Yes kids were important but there were still forms of contraceptive used back then to control how many children people had. And people did have more children back then but a lot of that likely had to do with the fact that most people died in infancy.
 
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HuntingMan

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Of all the arguments against contraception, "be fruitful and multiply" is the absolute worse, given the context of times in which it was stated.

I would have been kicked out of philosophy class for presenting an argument that bad. ;)
kaaahn-tekst ? :scratch:


;)
 
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HuntingMan

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And the funny thing is they likely didn;t. Yes kids were important but there were still forms of contraceptive used back then to control how many children people had. And people did have more children back then but a lot of that likely had to do with the fact that most people died in infancy.
We definitely live in a different world.
David surely wasnt worrying about BILLIONS of people overpopulating his world, for sure.

One thing that pretty much always come with overpopulation is disease. Its just a matter of time, folks.
If it werent for medical advancement making it possible to keep disease under control we can rest assured that a plague with proportions to the Black Death would have already destroyed millions or even billions.

As someone else said, this planet is finite. Just look at the population exposion over the last 100 years. In another hundred years Id be willing to bet that not even the medical establishment will be able to contain the disease and sickness.

And who should we thank in part for the overpopulating of the planet ? :)
 
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BreadAlone

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We definitely live in a different world.
David surely wasnt worrying about BILLIONS of people overpopulating his world, for sure.

One thing that pretty much always come with overpopulation is disease. Its just a matter of time, folks.
If it werent for medical advancement making it possible to keep disease under control we can rest assured that a plague with proportions to the Black Death would have already destroyed millions or even billions.

As someone else said, this planet is finite. Just look at the population exposion over the last 100 years. In another hundred years Id be willing to bet that not even the medical establishment will be able to contain the disease and sickness.

And who should we thank in part for the overpopulating of the planet ? :)
Luckily we have confidence that, before anything happens to this world and no matter what happens to this world..Christ will return!!
 
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HuntingMan

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Luckily we have confidence that, before anything happens to this world and no matter what happens to this world..Christ will return!!
Yep, He will return.
altho....

Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(Rev 18:8 KJV)
 
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Tdigaetano

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That is why in the NT marriage is limited to 1 man and 1 woman... and not to remarry after one dies.

So has God told us that abortions are Ok, and we should prevent birth because we don't want to over populate the earth... I don't see any where in the bible where God has told us to stop having children of fear of over population..... But maybe the bible is outdated... and we should get a new one where we can update it and make it ok to stop procreation.

And Make it ok to go to furtility clinics and trust in other methods of Birth Control and furtility control because God won't do it for us. I guess God has just given up on us so we have to take matters into our own hands and make up a truth that suits our needs instead of God's...
 
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Calliso

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That is why in the NT marriage is limited to 1 man and 1 woman... and not to remarry after one dies.

So has God told us that abortions are Ok, and we should prevent birth because we don't want to over populate the earth... I don't see any where in the bible where God has told us to stop having children of fear of over population..... But maybe the bible is outdated... and we should get a new one where we can update it and make it ok to stop procreation.

And Make it ok to go to furtility clinics and trust in other methods of Birth Control and furtility control because God won't do it for us. I guess God has just given up on us so we have to take matters into our own hands and make up a truth that suits our needs instead of God's...


I donlt think anyone has mentioned abortions here so I have no idea why you would bring that up. Also it likely doesn;t mention overpopulation in the bible because back then there was maybe a few million people all together! Also no one is saying God has given up on us. Just that he gave us brains for a reason to use them! And that he isn;t always going to hold our hands and bail us out. And what about those that donlt use any of those things and decide to trust in God but still end up with way more then they can handle? Were they just the unlucky ones that God decided not to provide for?
 
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Chajara

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That is why in the NT marriage is limited to 1 man and 1 woman... and not to remarry after one dies.

So has God told us that abortions are Ok, and we should prevent birth because we don't want to over populate the earth... I don't see any where in the bible where God has told us to stop having children of fear of over population..... But maybe the bible is outdated... and we should get a new one where we can update it and make it ok to stop procreation.

And Make it ok to go to furtility clinics and trust in other methods of Birth Control and furtility control because God won't do it for us. I guess God has just given up on us so we have to take matters into our own hands and make up a truth that suits our needs instead of God's...
It's not that I think God's given up on us, it's that he's endowed us with the gift of intelligence and reason and expects us to use those gifts.

We can invest our savings on the stock market knowing nothing about it should we suddenly find ourselves in need of more money than the savings will cover. Does that mean that God will just make everything work out despite our stupidity? No. It's not His responsibility to see that our throwing caution to the wind always turns out okay. But He might provide a way to learn about the stock market so that we can take responsibility and use it to our advantage.
 
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Trashionista

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That is why in the NT marriage is limited to 1 man and 1 woman... and not to remarry after one dies.

So has God told us that abortions are Ok, and we should prevent birth because we don't want to over populate the earth... I don't see any where in the bible where God has told us to stop having children of fear of over population..... But maybe the bible is outdated... and we should get a new one where we can update it and make it ok to stop procreation.

And Make it ok to go to furtility clinics and trust in other methods of Birth Control and furtility control because God won't do it for us. I guess God has just given up on us so we have to take matters into our own hands and make up a truth that suits our needs instead of God's...
There is no way I will give birth to 5 or 6 children.

It fascinates me when men suggest women shouldn't be using contraceptives. It is very easy to say that when your role in pregnancy - in the physical sense - involves [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Yet a woman - morning sickness, weight gain, sore breasts, sore back, swollen feet... Oh yeah. Piece of cake. I can't imagine why a woman shouldn't be giving birth and procreating until menopause sets in. Its not as if being fruitful and multiplying in the traditional sense is great for the female body either. That's a lot of pressure on a delicate system.

If the situation were reversed and men were the ones getting pregnant, you honestly believe you'd be suggesting men not use contraceptives?
 
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Calliso

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There is no way I will give birth to 5 or 6 children.

It fascinates me when men suggest women shouldn't be using contraceptives. It is very easy to say that when you're role in pregnancy - in the physical sense - involved [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. Yet a woman - morning sickness, weight gain, sore breasts, sore back, swollen feet... Oh yeah.

If the situation were reversed and men were the ones getting pregnant, you honestly believe you'd be suggesting men not use contraceptives?


Yeah there is no way I would Purposely give birth to ONE child much less 5 or 6. And I personally think that if men had to give birth and being pregnant you would see a LOT less men here arguing against contraception.
 
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NHB_MMA

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well, I mean, what about David and Solomon and all the wives they had ?
If we are supposed to keep relentlessly cranking out kids until death both of those men should have had countless children...*IF* they had actually believed like some preach today.

In OT times, procreation was considered so vital to the earth that a wife would let her husband father a child with her servant if she could not conceive. Clearly, men would have multiple wives too. If a husband passed away, his brother was expected to father children with the widow and make his sister-in-law his wife. That's the REAL sin of Onan, taking her as a wife and resenting the notion of having children with his brother's widow, not the early withdrawl itself.

You cannot take the standards and beliefs of a time period thousands of years ago, selectively choose portions, selectively ignore portions, and form a logical doctrine.
 
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NHB_MMA

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Luckily we have confidence that, before anything happens to this world and no matter what happens to this world..Christ will return!!

But if one believes in a post-trib rapture, as the church history did, then I hardly would relish in what lies ahead for one to endure.
 
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NHB_MMA

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That is why in the NT marriage is limited to 1 man and 1 woman... and not to remarry after one dies.

Most churches allow for remarriage after the death of a spouse. The RCC does not allow this? :confused:

So has God told us that abortions are Ok

We're not talking about abortion here.

and we should prevent birth because we don't want to over populate the earth

Again, the earth has a FINITE number of people it can support. This is high school science, at best.

I have no objection to anyone that wants to have 5, 10, 15, or 20 kids. There are plenty of 2 child households these days, when we've passed the days of breeding for cheap farm labor, to offset a rapid growth in population.

What I object to is this notion that one either has to take a high chance of having far more kids than he can afford/manage or endure a lack of intimacy.

I don't see any where in the bible where God has told us to stop having children of fear of over population..... But maybe the bible is outdated... and we should get a new one where we can update it and make it ok to stop procreation.

NOTHING on this matter is addressed in the Bible.

The greatest points of emphasis on fertility in the Bible, as I said a few posts ago, seems to be for a man to take another wife or his wife's maidservant, if he needs to do so to procreate. We live in a different time.

And Make it ok to go to furtility clinics and trust in other methods of Birth Control and furtility control because God won't do it for us. I guess God has just given up on us so we have to take matters into our own hands and make up a truth that suits our needs instead of God's...

Fertility clinics are another matter. The viewpoint you defend is man's teaching of "God's truth", a dogma. I do believe early church fathers were well-meaning in their condemnation of birth control (including NFP), but it is an archaeic dogma that falls right in line with the proclamation of a flat earth and the condemnation of Galileo at the end of th day.
 
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Tdigaetano

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The Historic Christian Teaching

Few of you realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At the 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, gave in to growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances.

Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Contraception is not a modern invention. Birth control has been around for millennia. Scrolls found in Egypt, dating to 1900 B.C., describe ancient methods of birth control. These methods were later practiced in the Roman empire during the apostolic age by pagans. Wool that absorbed sperm, poisons that fumigated the uterus, potions, and other methods were used to prevent conception. In some centuries, even condoms were used made out of animal skin rather than latex.

The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the sperm on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as "Onanism," after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as "Sodomy," after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).

Contraception was so far outside the biblical mindset and so obviously wrong that it did not need the frequent condemnations other sins did. Scripture condemns the practice when it mentions it. Once a moral principle has been established in the Bible, every possible application of it need not be mentioned. For example, the general principle that theft is wrong was clearly established in Scripture; but there’s no need to provide an exhaustive list of every kind of theft. Similarly, since the principle that contraception is wrong has been established by being condemned when it’s mentioned in the Bible, every particular form of contraception does not need to be dealt with in Scripture in order for us to see that it is condemned.

Five key points:

1) Trinity: Father, Son, Holy spirit. How do we tell them apart? There all fully God, We tell them apart by their relationship. The Father, fathers the son from all eternity. The son pours himself back to the father and the bond between them is the Holy spirit the 3rd person. They called Man and women into exisitance they made us in their image and the first command was to be fruitful and multiply.

2) The Lordship of Jesus Christ: The Lord Jesus Christ is our Lord over our time, money, talents, and furtility. He is Lord over Everything....

3) Children in scripture: No where in scripture do you find a passage that says blessed is a man who only has two children so he can afford their college education. Or the Woman who has at least a four year gap so she is not stuck double diapering or a couple that waits five years before having kids.
Psalm 127:

3Behold, children are a gift of the LORD,
The fruit of the womb is a reward.
4Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
So are the children of one's youth.
5How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them;

4) Soveriegnty of God: Could God have a better plan for your life then you do?

5) NFP (Natural Family Planning) is a balance the church has given us by acknowledging grave reasons that a couple could prayerfully decern as far as they can tell would be better to not have children, but they don't go ahead and have the act of marriage to try to destroy the contents of what would make another child. Instead out of respect for the dignity of the other person and the dignity of the act of marriage they sustain periodicly. This period spent sustaining from the sexual aspect of marriage should be a period of prayer where you ask God to help with your grave situation.

NFP is not contraception because it is a time of prayer and devotion to the Lord during a time of Hardship. Instead of partaking in sexual intercourse with contraception during this Grave time.

Abortion is the Black side of the shade of grey that is contraception. Abortion is stopping life because it will interfer with your life. Contraception is stopping life from occuring because it will interfer with your life.... Inorder to truely stop abortion we as christians need to stop contraception... If people will turn away from trying to prevent birth because it will interfer with their personal life and followed Jesus Christ and trust in him and be obedient to him, the world will change and abortions will stop.
 
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sunlover1

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Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.
We all know many catholics tdig, bless your heart.
Mom had three kids.
Uncle one had one kid.
Uncle two had two.
Uncle three had five,
then two for the next
and two for the last
one for the aunt.

Of THEIR catholic kids, my cousins:
They've all had two.
My family does much fasting,
which is surprising because many
can't even lay off the booze.


Funny, After turning my back on catholicism at age
18ish, (when I was given a Bible), that birth
control thing never did leave my mind, and talk about
guilt. So as a protestant, I still didnt use birth control.
But I am glad for the blessings.
:thumbsup:

And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).

The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law,
Actually, it doesnt say specifically what was displeasing
in the sight of the Lord.
He did sin, in that he didnt honor his father's command
to go and lie with his brothers wife and impregnate her.
IOW, humiliation for not giving your brothers widow
was humiliation, you're saying,
but touching yourself or interuptus is death?
(Because just as many people cite this example in the
touching yourself controversy)

Contraception was so far outside the biblical mindset and so obviously wrong that it did not need the frequent condemnations other sins did. Scripture condemns the practice when it mentions it. Once a moral principle has been established in the Bible, every possible application of it need not be mentioned.
But was it established?
And then you realise you condemn your
own church as well as those outside of it.
(Unless my family is just a fluke)

3) Children in scripture: No where in scripture do you find a passage that says blessed is a man who only has two children so he can afford their college education. Or the Woman who has at least a four year gap so she is not stuck double diapering or a couple that waits five years before having kids.
:thumbsup:
And I agree with you.
God will provide for his children,
one never needs to worry about how many children
they have, the food will be there.
I triple diapered and that wasnt a hardship
by any means.
But too, we arent to add to the Bible.
(not saying that you did, but it's ambiguous)
I couldnt condemn peoples use of birth control,
any more than using NFP, it's the same goal.
Same result.
We each will answer to God, so should
earnestly seek to know HIS will, if unsure.

4) Soveriegnty of God: Could God have a better plan for your life then you do?
:clap:
But He does give us choices
and minds to make decisions
doesnt He?


5) NFP (Natural Family Planning) is a balance the church has given us by acknowledging grave reasons that a couple could prayerfully decern as far as they can tell would be better to not have children,
This contradicts your number four.
:scratch:

Natural family planning IS still planning.

YOu go with your heart tdig.
:thumbsup:
If your conscience convicts you,
then for you it would be SIN to do
any other way than you've described.
Bummer for you though,
and I mean that sincerely, because my
experience shows me that
most of the caths I know, IF Not all,
do use contraception.
So if they're going against their
conscience......... :(

Blessings
sunlover
 
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