Contraception

[April Angel]

If one partner can't make that sacrifice for one whom they love do they really love their partner?

I thought that the sacrifice was for God? The partner does not need the sacrifice since they can use barrier methods.

Whether God wants the sacrifice for two weeks every month for 12 months each year over an entire life-time, is debatable. (2x12x30=720 weeks - not counting periods - another 360 weeks - Total: 1,080 weeks = 20 years)

I agree that if a woman gets to tired or is sick they should avoid pregnancy but I don't see how using Birth Control makes it ok....

Why not? Do you not think that God would understand this?

I don't really believe anyone is unable to have self-control unless its a serious mental disorder... I believe its because people are becomming to comfortable and they don't feel like they need to try to control their urges anymore.

In the bible it is generally accepted that if a man cannot control his urges, he should get married. What would be the point of saying this, if it was expected that he should also control his urges when he is married?

No it isn't just hormones but its still placing a man made barrier to prevent what God has willed. Yes if God wanted to break the barrier he could... or he could just judge those who have sinned against him. Gen: 11 is an illustration of man's increasing wickedness, shown here in his presuptuous effort to create an urban culture apart from God. That is what birth control is... its about accepting a culture that is apart from God.

Birth control is equal to medicine. Do you also believe that medicine goes against what God has willed? It could be argued that the advances in medicine and surgery have also created a culture that is apart from God. Does that mean that we should refuse all forms of medical treatment?

 

[HuntingMan]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

Oh MAN !
All these years of study and somehow I MISSED the 11th commandment ...'thou shalt not use condoms'

Since I did miss it, would you be so courteous as to give me chapter and verse to back the assertion ?

Have fun discussing.

Oh, I see. This was more of a trolling/baiting thing

 

[cherryblossom03]

What?! There are 11 commandments?!

 

[sunlover1]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

It's use and acceptance has always led quickly to the acceptance and use of abortion, and currently is destroying Western civilization, through the popularization of extra-maritial sex, and sub-replacement level birth rates.
Have fun discussing.

What is sin for one is not for another.
If it's, in your eyes, sinful, then by
all means, you need to follow your
own conscience.

Anyway, I don't see how abstinence is any less of a burden than mutilating a major bodily system or pumping one's body full of hormones and chemicals so that a major bodily system's functioning is radically altered or even putting a barrier between the husband and wife when they seek to renew their becoming one flesh.

Apparantly it is, I am not catholic yet I have more
kids than any of the Catholics that I know.
Or are they 'fasting' for years on end?

And let's say for the sake of argument, that they
do really practice 'abstinence', how is that any
different than using for instance condoms?
If GOD wants you to have a baby, then why dont
we allow for that possibility?

Leah and Rachel did that. They prayed for God to
'open' their wombs and also to 'close' their wombs iirc.

The bible says to give your husband his due, EXCEPT if
it's mutually agreed upon for a time, for fasting,
but then to come together lest the enemy tempt you.

So if you're talking of abstinence during fasting it's
biblical.....

 

[sunlover1]

Personal sacarfices we make in our lives makes God happy.

Where did you get the idea that this makes God
happy Tdigaetano?

Sex without intimacy is bad,

Why?
I daresay some married folks have sex on certain
days just for the purpose of procreation, and sometimes
may not even have intimacy (although I'd think that's
pretty hard not to be intimate in that scenario)

Sex with mistaking intimacy for Lust is worse.

What is "lust" in marriage though?
Where do you draw that line between
desire, and lust? Strong desire for your
spouse is lust?

The pill removes the intimacy from a relationship allowing lust and other bad habbits continue to prosper

How does birth control rmove intimacy?

If one partner can't make that sacrifice for one whom they love do they really love their partner?

If one of the partners asks, for a time of fasting, and
the other 'cant' or 'wont actually, then yeah, they can
still love their spouse.
They might just be selfish and pigheaded
But that doesnt mean they dont love them.

I agree that if a woman gets to tired or is sick they should avoid pregnancy but I don't see how using Birth Control makes it ok....

I dont know that Birth control is a bad thing.
For me, I just prayed and asked God to be Lord
over my child bearing, but I know that many thought
i was foolish for doing it that way.
God has blessed me abundantly !

I don't really believe anyone is unable to have self-control unless its a serious mental disorder... I believe its because people are becomming to comfortable and they don't feel like they need to try to control their urges anymore.

I sure do agree with that Tdig.
But I still dont see the need to practice self
control in the marriage bed. I'd think it's a cool
thing for a couple to have intimacy often.

No it isn't just hormones but its still placing a man made barrier to prevent what God has willed.

But seriously, if we use nfp, it's just the same thing,
preventing what God might have willed.

Does your religion have something against sex?
Priests cant marry.
Nuns cant marry.
Marrieds should practice abstinence.

Just joking, but man, we could stop the human
race from growing if we did this stuff.

 

[Tdigaetano]

I thought that the sacrifice was for God? The partner does not need the sacrifice since they can use barrier methods.

Whether God wants the sacrifice for two weeks every month for 12 months each year over an entire life-time, is debatable. (2x12x30=720 weeks - not counting periods - another 360 weeks - Total: 1,080 weeks = 20 years)

Why not? Do you not think that God would understand this?

I think God would understand that his children who say they believe in him would rather have enough money to go out and buy fast food, big fast cars, big houses rather then to bring children into the world.

In the bible it is generally accepted that if a man cannot control his urges, he should get married. What would be the point of saying this, if it was expected that he should also control his urges when he is married?

Would not having more children put more pressure to on the husband to provide causeing the husband to put his urges 2nd to his family?

Birth control is equal to medicine. Do you also believe that medicine goes against what God has willed? It could be argued that the advances in medicine and surgery have also created a culture that is apart from God. Does that mean that we should refuse all forms of medical treatment?

Medicine helps people live a longer life, Brith Control prevents people from having life that would have a chance to live longer.

 

[Tdigaetano]

Where did you get the idea that this makes God
happy Tdigaetano?
Why?

Hebrews 13
God-pleasing Sacrifices

15Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name. 16And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Romans 12
Dedicated Service

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

There are two places in scripture that show that personal sacrifices are acceptable and pleasing to God.

I daresay some married folks have sex on certain
days just for the purpose of procreation, and sometimes
may not even have intimacy (although I'd think that's
pretty hard not to be intimate in that scenario)


What is "lust" in marriage though?
Where do you draw that line between
desire, and lust? Strong desire for your
spouse is lust?

How does birth control rmove intimacy?

Intimate is something very personal and private; it is only something one can share with the one person who is closest to you.

Lust is an intense or unrestrained sexual craving and it could also be applied to an overwhelming desire or craving.

Intimacy is something you can share with only one person, Lust is something you can share with the world.

Birth Control does just this... by removing the life giving aspect of marriage you are cutting off one of the few intimate parts of the sacred union between two people. Birth Control brings lust into the relationship because now it doesn't matter who they have sex with because there is no sharing of the intimate life giving aspects of marriage...

Does your religion have something against sex?
Priests cant marry.
Nuns cant marry.
Marrieds should practice abstinence.

Just joking, but man, we could stop the human
race from growing if we did this stuff.

Jesus told us of 3 reasons to not marry...

Matthew 19:

12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

There are 3 definitions for eunuch:
1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3 : An ineffectual, powerless, or unmasculine man.

Eunuchs who are born that way in the mother's womb are impotent unable to bear children and do not have to marry. (Definition 2)

Euncuchs who were made eunuchs by men these were men who were servents to the kings. And either volunteered this type of servitude or were forced into it.(Definition 1)

Eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. This isn't talking about someone cutting off their genitals for God it is talking about those who take a vow of celebacy to fully serve God. (Definition 3)

Jesus finishes with saying "He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." So unless you are born impotent, made impotent by man, or willingly give up sexuality to fully serve the Kingdom of Heaven you should marry.

To be married is a God given privilege to anyone who is capible of creating life.... to be married and reject the life giving aspects of the marriage you are becomming eunuchs and should not have been married in the first place.

 

[Calliso]

I think God would understand that his children who say they believe in him would rather have enough money to go out and buy fast food, big fast cars, big houses rather then to bring children into the world.



Would not having more children put more pressure to on the husband to provide causeing the husband to put his urges 2nd to his family?



Medicine helps people live a longer life, Brith Control prevents people from having life that would have a chance to live longer.

Ok believe it or not but not everyone avoids children solely because of material reasons. My husband and I donlt have children and never will by our own choice. But we donlt have fast cars our house is fairly big for two people but that is because my husband did buy it with the intention that he was going to have kids one day. Then he saw what the world is like and decided against that. But right now it wouldn;t be worth our money to go live someplace smaller and likely end up paying more money. We do go out to eat fairly often though. But you can;t make the assumption that people always avoid children for purely material reasons.


So stressing out the husband is a good thing? I think doing such a thing as having more kids to force him to work more would likely lead to a lot of stress and resentment. It is not healthy for a marriage if instead of being husband and wife people are forced to become little mroe then mommy and daddy and there relationship with eachother becomes nearly nonexistant because it because all about the kids, because there simply isn;t time for anything else. Eventually that can lead to divorce or one person just eventually walking out and saying enough! I want a life, I donlt want to wake up everyday wondering how I am going to make enough to support us,I want to be able to make love to my husband *or wife* and actually be able to enjoy it. But I guess being absolutely miserable in our marriages is what God wants huh! Course he never says anything like that but of course we can assume he wants us too!..Course I do suspect that many people that believe as you do and our married are secretly miserable and nothing helps misery like spreading it around huh?


Birth control can help people live longer it can prevent having too many kids which can be deadly to a womans body. We were not made to pop out baby after baby after baby some people get lucky and come out ok..some donlt. And the added stress on the poor husband could lead to an early death too.

 

[sunlover1]

Hebrews 13
God-pleasing Sacrifices

15Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name. 16And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

But it doesnt say that abstaining is a pleasing sacrifice.
In fact, it says dont abstain. (with the exception of fasting)

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Naturally,,, we offer not just our bodies but our whole
lives, finances, children, homes etc.
But again, it's not talking about offering up what belongs
to our spouse.
He wouldnt say one thing (dont defraud your wife)
and then another opposite thing would he?

Lust is an intense or unrestrained sexual craving and it could also be applied to an overwhelming desire or craving.

The Bible says to get married rather than burn in lust.

Intimacy is something you can share with only one person, Lust is something you can share with the world.

I can see how it might look that way.
But thats not altogether true.
People can and do share intimacy with more than one person

Birth Control does just this... by removing the life giving aspect of marriage you are cutting off one of the few intimate parts of the sacred union between two people.

As you are with abstinence.

Birth Control brings lust into the relationship because now it doesn't matter who they have sex with because there is no sharing of the intimate life giving aspects of marriage...

Birth control or no birth control, some will lust.
Men lust in their hearts and are guilty.
Birth control has no bearing on lust.

Jesus told us of 3 reasons to not marry...

Matthew 19:

12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." ...

Eunuchs who are born that way in the mother's womb are impotent unable to bear children and do not have to marry. (Definition 2)

Shouldnt actually.
But that doesnt negate God's design for man and woman.

Euncuchs who were made eunuchs by men these were men who were servents to the kings. And either volunteered this type of servitude or were forced into it.(Definition 1)

Which wouldnt be pleasing to God, to mutilate yourself
for another human. That cannot be God's destiny for any
man because He'd never let your destiny fall into the hands
of another human.

Eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. This isn't talking about someone cutting off their genitals for God it is talking about those who take a vow of celebacy to fully serve God. (Definition 3)

And that's super, but it's not for the married man, and it's not something imposed on a man.

Jesus finishes with saying "He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." So unless you are born impotent, made impotent by man, or willingly give up sexuality to fully serve the Kingdom of Heaven you should marry.

Something like that, yes.

To be married is a God given privilege to anyone who is capible of creating life.... to be married and reject the life giving aspects of the marriage you are becomming eunuchs and should not have been married in the first place

God said that he created marriage for the godly offspring. Does that mean one a year?
He made it clear we're to give the husband/wife
their due.
I didnt use any birth control OR nfp (abstinence)
I asked GOD to stop giving me babies, after having three
of them in less than three years.
No more came, yet no abstinence.



Whether one uses a birth control device or uses
abstinence, the outcome is the same exact thing.

Man controlling how many babies will be born.

Same goal, same consequences.

sonlover

 

[April Angel]

I agree that if a woman gets to tired or is sick they should avoid pregnancy but I don't see how using Birth Control makes it ok...

Why not? Do you not think that God would understand this?

I think God would understand that his children who say they believe in him would rather have enough money to go out and buy fast food, big fast cars, big houses rather then to bring children into the world.

However, I was not talking about a small minority (i.e. child-free Christians). I was talking about people like me who are too old and/or sick to risk any more pregnancies.

Note: I do not own a car or a house. I've spent a great deal of my life eating humble pie, being treated like dirt to the extent that I do not even believe that I deserve a roof over my head. I sacrificed my pride, my job and my self-respect to give life to my children.

Therefore, I do not judge other women who choose to buy a house for their children before having their children. Being homeless with more than three children is no joke.

Would not having more children put more pressure to on the husband to provide causeing the husband to put his urges 2nd to his family?

No. It often has the opposite effect. The more stress the husband suffers, the more he needs the comfort of his wife and the relaxing effects of a normal marital relationship.

Medicine helps people live a longer life, Brith Control prevents people from having life that would have a chance to live longer.

There needs to be a balance. Just as medicine helps "people" (aka MEN) to live longer, birth control helps women to live longer. In a just society, it cannot be expected that women should shorten their lives through repeated pregnancies. Even animals are given more consideration than that. You would not expect a female animal to be constantly pregnant or breast-feeding for 10-20 years, so why is it expected of female humans?

 

[Chajara]

I really don't think anyone has any business saying whether or not a couple loves each other or not. I mean, I'd take a bullet for my boyfriend without even thinking twice, but since we plan to not have children until we're stable financially we somehow don't love each other? Huh?

It doesn't even make sense. No one is going to tell me that I love my man less because we're going to use birth control and have our children at just the right time in our lives. And I'm sure God will be happy to let us know when it's time.

And I don't buy that whole materialism thing either. I don't think it's a bad thing that I want a home with a yard and a decent kitchen and enough space to accommodate any pets, sports equipment, hobbies, and little brothers/sisters that may come along. I don't want 6 kids squeezed into a 2 bedroom apartment in a dangerous part of town because it's all we can afford because all our money is going toward groceries, health care, and clothing. I don't want to worry about my kids playing too close to the street because they have no back yard. I don't want to worry about getting shot on the way out the door because we can't afford to live in a part of town not infested with crime.

In order for everyone to have that many children and not live in poverty, chances are both parents would have to work and they'd have to work high-paying jobs. Not everyone can get a high-paying job, and not everyone is happy doing things that pay a lot. For example, I'm planning on either becoming a teacher or starting my own daycare. Neither will pull in much cash, I'm afraid, but I won't be miserable doing it. My boyfriend is about to graduate with a degree in graphic design (he's really, really good at it.) Starting out he'll make decent money, but not nearly enough for us to get married and immediately start popping out babies. We've got to save up for a few years and get a decent down payment on a house, and THEN we can talk about kids. We're also working on being able to afford a home now by keeping our credit ratings good so we'll hopefully get a good rate on a home loan. Still, I absolutely will not just throw caution to the wind and start cranking out kids the second we get married. We're going to do it right, and with God's guidance, and we both firmly believe that God is fine with us using birth control until later and letting us focus on working hard at getting resources built up before we bring another life to this planet.

By the way, we only plan on having maybe one child naturally anyway. If any more are to come, we will likely adopt them. There are enough kids in the foster system as it is.

 

[Calliso]

Hebrews 13
God-pleasing Sacrifices

15Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name. 16And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Romans 12
Dedicated Service

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

There are two places in scripture that show that personal sacrifices are acceptable and pleasing to God.



Intimate is something very personal and private; it is only something one can share with the one person who is closest to you.

Lust is an intense or unrestrained sexual craving and it could also be applied to an overwhelming desire or craving.

Intimacy is something you can share with only one person, Lust is something you can share with the world.

Birth Control does just this... by removing the life giving aspect of marriage you are cutting off one of the few intimate parts of the sacred union between two people. Birth Control brings lust into the relationship because now it doesn't matter who they have sex with because there is no sharing of the intimate life giving aspects of marriage...




Jesus told us of 3 reasons to not marry...

Matthew 19:

12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

There are 3 definitions for eunuch:
1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3 : An ineffectual, powerless, or unmasculine man.

Eunuchs who are born that way in the mother's womb are impotent unable to bear children and do not have to marry. (Definition 2)

Euncuchs who were made eunuchs by men these were men who were servents to the kings. And either volunteered this type of servitude or were forced into it.(Definition 1)

Eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. This isn't talking about someone cutting off their genitals for God it is talking about those who take a vow of celebacy to fully serve God. (Definition 3)

Jesus finishes with saying "He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." So unless you are born impotent, made impotent by man, or willingly give up sexuality to fully serve the Kingdom of Heaven you should marry.

To be married is a God given privilege to anyone who is capible of creating life.... to be married and reject the life giving aspects of the marriage you are becomming eunuchs and should not have been married in the first place.

I am curious are you married and do you have kids? I am curious because it seems most people that believe as you do..are either A. single B. married but only have like one or two kids C. have been sterilized at one point in their life but now suddenly believe that is all wrong and tell everyone they should have kids of course conviently they donlt have to worry about more kids themselves. But it is VERY rare to have someone married with 3 or more kids come on here and tell others that they can;t prevent children..gee I wonder why? Maybe it is because they have actually experienced and maybe are still living what it is like to live in a marriage with more kids then they can really afford and no time for their spouse anymore.

Also just how much suffering must we do for God and why MUST it include having kids? Can;t childfree Christians like me also sacrifice and suffer for God in other ways? I mean where in the bible does it say when married one MUST not prevent children? And what about infertile people do you believe that even if a infertile couple is in love that they should not get married simply because they can;t pop out babies?

 

[NHB_MMA]

I think God would understand that his children who say they believe in him would rather have enough money to go out and buy fast food, big fast cars, big houses rather then to bring children into the world.

Materialism is a separate, but certainly relevent, issue.

Most people aren't of a mentality that they don't want children so they can buy a Ferrari. Most people are more of the mentality that they want to give their children a decent standard of living and be able to provide for educational expenses for that child. The average, middle class family takes a vacation every year or every other year and has a house large enough for each child to have his own bedroom.

I personally reject the notion that there is a necessity to give up small pleasures and conveniences so that every household can have 5-10 kids, which would be completely ecologically unsustainable without a couple generations.

 

[Calliso]

Materialism is a separate, but certainly relevent, issue.

Most people aren't of a mentality that they don't want children so they can buy a Ferrari. Most people are more of the mentality that they want to give their children a decent standard of living and be able to provide for educational expenses for that child. The average, middle class family takes a vacation every year or every other year and has a house large enough for each child to have his own bedroom.

I personally reject the notion that there is a necessity to give up small pleasures and conveniences so that every household can have 5-10 kids, which would be completely ecologically unsustainable without a couple generations.

And you bring up another good point *if I am not reading you wrong please let me know if I am* But aye the earth could not really support everyone having large familes nowadays. Especially since unlike lets say 100 or more years ago in developed nations most children will live to be adults. And they are already are saying that the population will reach I believe 9 billion in no time flat and after that it will just keep getting faster and faster. But if everyone that could have kids and was married starting having large families it would grow even faster. And contrary to what some here may believe the Earth does not have unlimited space and unlimited natural resources.

 

[Tdigaetano]

And you bring up another good point *if I am not reading you wrong please let me know if I am* But aye the earth could not really support everyone having large familes nowadays. Especially since unlike lets say 100 or more years ago in developed nations most children will live to be adults. And they are already are saying that the population will reach I believe 9 billion in no time flat and after that it will just keep getting faster and faster. But if everyone that could have kids and was married starting having large families it would grow even faster. And contrary to what some here may believe the Earth does not have unlimited space and unlimited natural resources.

I do agree that there is not unlimited space or unlimited resources, but technology increases the efficiency of our resources and space. Right now in the United states the average individual consumes 24 times that of the avg poor lower class person. Do we really need to be consuming 24 times.... If we had larger families as a family we would be consumming around 24 times but each individual would maybe consume 4 times. The population needs a 2.1 birth rate from every female in a population inorder to maintain its population. The USA is around 2.1333 this is because of immigration. Without this immigration the USA would be suffering a negative birth rate that Europe is suffering right now. Africa's birth rate which is estimate by 2050 to increase to 1.7 billion people, the average life span of an african is about 40 years.

The issue about contraception is people are trying to control the population themselves instead of letting God contol it.

In america over the last 40 years the use of contraception in marriage has decreased and the rate of abortions has also decreased by about 20-25%, the same can not be said for the rest of the world. It is only because of this decrease we are able to maintain our population. In 40 years when the people born between 1946 and 1966 are all dead we will lose 25% of our population, do we have the numbers to make up for this sudden loss?

I am curious are you married and do you have kids? I am curious because it seems most people that believe as you do..are either A. single B. married but only have like one or two kids C. have been sterilized at one point in their life but now suddenly believe that is all wrong and tell everyone they should have kids of course conviently they donlt have to worry about more kids themselves. But it is VERY rare to have someone married with 3 or more kids come on here and tell others that they can;t prevent children..gee I wonder why? Maybe it is because they have actually experienced and maybe are still living what it is like to live in a marriage with more kids then they can really afford and no time for their spouse anymore.

Also just how much suffering must we do for God and why MUST it include having kids? Can;t childfree Christians like me also sacrifice and suffer for God in other ways? I mean where in the bible does it say when married one MUST not prevent children? And what about infertile people do you believe that even if a infertile couple is in love that they should not get married simply because they can;t pop out babies?

I'm not married but I do plan on marriage with in this next year. The arguement of about contraception is that it is premitting sinful desires to enter into a marriage, These sinful desires can grow into actual sin, and then lead to a Mortal sin which will cause you to reject Christ. As said in

Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those who sin lose salvation.

Hebrews 13:4
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Marriage should be kept pure and avoid sexual immoralites.


1 Corinthians 7
4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control

When you deprive each other of the life giving aspects of marriage don't do it with contracepted sex but with prayer to avoid being tempted and losing self-control.

The bible does show us that if we are to restrain from sex we must do so with prayer not with contracepted sex. Trusting in Jesus and following him in marriage is a tough thing as St. Paul also says:

32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

When marriage is made easy you have people taking marriage for granted and this ruins the God given gift. Contraception is what is ruining marriage. Maybe not some individual but for society in general. It is our Job as Christians to set an example for the rest of the world to see that God really exists and that the hope and love of Jesus Christ shines through us. Using Contraception puts a shade over this light and it does not allow God's will to be shown through us.

 

[HuntingMan]

Contraception is what is ruining marriage.

NONSENSE !

What is 'ruining' marriage is one or two persons in that marriage NOT doing what they promised to do when they signed up for it. Contraception is NOT relevant to whether a marriage is good or bad, whether it succeeds or fails.
It is entirely IRRESPONSIBLE for you to try to cause a young couple who are NOT yet ready for a child to believe that their marriage is FAILING because they need a kid !!!!

It is our Job as Christians to set an example for the rest of the world to see that God really exists and that the hope and love of Jesus Christ shines through us.
Using Contraception puts a shade over this light and it does not allow God's will to be shown through us.

Apples and oranges, chap.
Endlessly pumping out kids has NOTHING to do with our witness to the world.
How on earth you make that connection is beyond the mind to imagine...
If anything it makes the church look like irresponsible fools who have 12 kids whether they can feed and provide for those children or not..

God gave men and women BRAINS to go along with those reproductive organs

 

[April Angel]

The issue about contraception is people are trying to control the population themselves instead of letting God contol it.

The other side of the coin:
"The issue about medicine is that people are trying to control the population themselves instead of letting God control it."

 

[NHB_MMA]

I do agree that there is not unlimited space or unlimited resources, but technology increases the efficiency of our resources and space.

To say that overpopulating the planet with the hope that God will enable man to make technological advances and sustain a population it clearly cannot sustain now would be irresponsible is an extreme understatement. It would probably be the most irresponsible thing man could do.

The earth has a finite amount of land and this land can only produce a given amount of meat or produce. A certain amount of vegetation must grow in order to give us oxygen in the air. My former roommate made an argument about overpopulation being a myth to keep the wealth in the hands of the elite that would have made Karl Marx proud, but it's not a myth. There can be some debate about exactly where the point is, but there clearly is a point where the earth could not sustain any further population.

Right now in the United states the average individual consumes 24 times that of the avg poor lower class person. Do we really need to be consuming 24 times.... If we had larger families as a family we would be consumming around 24 times but each individual would maybe consume 4 times.

Materialism is a legitimate issue and criticism, but I'm not going to feel guilty about having more than one change of clothes or eating out of a porcelain bowl instead of a deer skull, in order to defend an archaeic dogma from a period of time when church leaders had no real knowledge of reproduction, population, ecology, etc. I would feel different about this if it were addressed in Scripture, but it's not. And I'm not a Sola Scripturist either. My personal theology is much closer to Orthodoxy than Protestantism, yet I do NOT accept the idea that dogma, even as valuable and insightful as it is, is fully equal to, and as binding as, Scripture.

The population needs a 2.1 birth rate from every female in a population inorder to maintain its population. The USA is around 2.1333 this is because of immigration. Without this immigration the USA would be suffering a negative birth rate that Europe is suffering right now. Africa's birth rate which is estimate by 2050 to increase to 1.7 billion people, the average life span of an african is about 40 years.

The issue about contraception is people are trying to control the population themselves instead of letting God contol it.

In america over the last 40 years the use of contraception in marriage has decreased and the rate of abortions has also decreased by about 20-25%, the same can not be said for the rest of the world. It is only because of this decrease we are able to maintain our population. In 40 years when the people born between 1946 and 1966 are all dead we will lose 25% of our population, do we have the numbers to make up for this sudden loss?

While I would ideally love to have children myself someday, I don't see this as a problem. Many scientists would say the earth would be better off with a lower population than it has now.

I'm not married but I do plan on marriage with in this next year. The arguement of about contraception is that it is premitting sinful desires to enter into a marriage, These sinful desires can grow into actual sin, and then lead to a Mortal sin which will cause you to reject Christ.

Nothing in Scripture suggests to me that a person can, under normal circumstances, sin by desiring his wife as I addressed a few posts ago talking about the "lust" issue of the argument. On the other hand, forgoing sex for an extended period of time is unquestionably opening up the door for temptation.

 

[Calliso]

I do agree that there is not unlimited space or unlimited resources, but technology increases the efficiency of our resources and space. Right now in the United states the average individual consumes 24 times that of the avg poor lower class person. Do we really need to be consuming 24 times.... If we had larger families as a family we would be consumming around 24 times but each individual would maybe consume 4 times. The population needs a 2.1 birth rate from every female in a population inorder to maintain its population. The USA is around 2.1333 this is because of immigration. Without this immigration the USA would be suffering a negative birth rate that Europe is suffering right now. Africa's birth rate which is estimate by 2050 to increase to 1.7 billion people, the average life span of an african is about 40 years.

The issue about contraception is people are trying to control the population themselves instead of letting God contol it.

In america over the last 40 years the use of contraception in marriage has decreased and the rate of abortions has also decreased by about 20-25%, the same can not be said for the rest of the world. It is only because of this decrease we are able to maintain our population. In 40 years when the people born between 1946 and 1966 are all dead we will lose 25% of our population, do we have the numbers to make up for this sudden loss?



I'm not married but I do plan on marriage with in this next year. The arguement of about contraception is that it is premitting sinful desires to enter into a marriage, These sinful desires can grow into actual sin, and then lead to a Mortal sin which will cause you to reject Christ. As said in

Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those who sin lose salvation.

Hebrews 13:4
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Marriage should be kept pure and avoid sexual immoralites.


1 Corinthians 7
4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control

When you deprive each other of the life giving aspects of marriage don't do it with contracepted sex but with prayer to avoid being tempted and losing self-control.

The bible does show us that if we are to restrain from sex we must do so with prayer not with contracepted sex. Trusting in Jesus and following him in marriage is a tough thing as St. Paul also says:

32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

When marriage is made easy you have people taking marriage for granted and this ruins the God given gift. Contraception is what is ruining marriage. Maybe not some individual but for society in general. It is our Job as Christians to set an example for the rest of the world to see that God really exists and that the hope and love of Jesus Christ shines through us. Using Contraception puts a shade over this light and it does not allow God's will to be shown through us.

I agree when need to consume less, but even then if population growth continues as it is now we will be in trouble before too long. Maybe not in our life times but eventually. Also we do not need to maintain our population the population needs to fall. And yes this will have negative effects in the short run. But in the long run it is needed. Besides do we want to get to the point where governments start having to sterlize people at BIRTH in a desperate attempt to keep population undercontrol? Do we want to turn 1st world nations into third world ones? We need to control our population it is the resonsible thing to do. We only have one planet and we likely will only ever get one. And if God didn;t want us to control our population he would have made it impossible to do so or at least very hard.

And what sort of sinful desires are you talking about? Is there something wrong with want to have sex with your spouse? Or do you think that contraception automatically makes people more likely to lust after people they are not married to?

And those verses say nothing about contraceptive sex. It is just refering to sex in the marriage period. It is talking about seperating so you can devote yourself to prayer. Contraceptive sex is still sex.


Also give me some examples of how contraceptive ruins marriage. Or better yet if a marriage already has troubles how does saying hey our marriage is crap! lets have kids help anything? But personally I have NEVER heard of any marriage falling apart because of contraceptive use. But I have heard of plenty that fall apart because they had a kid when they shouldn;t have.

 

[HuntingMan]

To say that overpopulating the planet with the hope that God will enable man to make technological advances and sustain a population it clearly cannot sustain now would be irresponsible is an extreme understatement. It would probably be the most irresponsible thing man could do.

amen and amen.
Three times that I have seen in scriptures man is told to 'be fruitful and multiply.
In the beginning, after the flood and for the growth of the Hebrew nation and the 12 tribes.
Some take those instructions and seemingly make it so that now we have to ignore the intelligence GOD gave us and become baby making machines until our bodies can no longer produce offspring.
Preposterous....