Why Trinitarian theology is important

[johnd]

I think I could believe in the trinity if it were outlined clearly in scripture. You know like: "And it came to pass that when Jesus reached the City of David that he taught his disciples saying; It is said of them of old that the Lord our God is one Lord. But verily I say unto you God is made up of three persons, me, my Father, and the Holy Spirit. The three are not the same, but are one God."

The problem here is that none of that ever happened. And even Christ said the Lord our God is one Lord. If I am condemned to hell for believing in one god (Yahweh) and His Son, then then so be it.

You never responded (that I am aware of) to my question about the deity of Christ. And I wanted to dialog with you on the chance that you are one of the reasonable folks.

There are false Christs.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

How do you determine your faith is in the genuine Jesus?

By some mere mortal's interpretation of scriptures? By some mere mortal form of argumentation? Or do you subscribe to what the God of the Bible teaches about the divine nature?

 

[johnd]

amyman_83 thinks that Arius was a pretty good guy.

Anyway, to reiterate what I said earlier, based one's theology upon single texts arranged systematically is not true to Scripture. It's a 19th century way of looking at the text- looking at the Bible as a set of scientific facts and axioms to be collected and processed in Baconian fashion. The actual work of exegesis is much more complex than that.

It's why most of my posts deal with huge themes of the Scriptures and not specific texts (although in some cases, I'll quote fifty texts to show that what I'm recording as a theme is, indeed, a general theme).

You notice this is when the hard hitter for the Apostate UPC ? Oneness doctrine (Duckie) came in and started in with the fractured logic and forms of argumentation (along with some misquoted scripture).

Just like you indicated...

 

[2ducklow]

You notice this is when the hard hitter for the Apostate UPC ?

you are a little mixed up here as to who is and isn't apostate. but it always helps to dis someoone by calling their church apostate. the facts speak otherwise of course. the bible says God is one, not god is 3 in one. that should be a hint to you.

Oneness doctrine (Duckie) came in and started in with the fractured logic and forms of argumentation (along with some misquoted scripture).

Just like you indicated...

of course you provide no proof that anything I said was fractured logic or that any thing was misquoted scripture, just name it and claim it huh? guess with your illogical nonsensical trinity doctrine that is the only option available to you. And I am not an apostate from the trinity doctrine because i never ever believed, Actually an apostate trinitarian is something to be desired for trinity is untruth, and apostasy from untruth is prima. But too I am not an apostate from believeing God's word. I believe every single word of it. you are calling me an apostate because I don't interpret certain scriptures the way you do. that doesn't make me an apostate. but then when one has a nonsensical doctrine like trinity the only sure way to get people to believe it is threaten them with hell fire and say they aren't a christian unless they believe the nonsensical trinity doctrine. it's been going on ever since the council of nicea, and it's the only reason people believe it because of the threat of hell fire and excomunication trinitarians sling at anyone who denys it. But the bible don't say it and I aint in the least persuaded by the threat that unbelief in trinity results in one being non christian. why? because I've read the bible is why. how many people do you think you could get to believe that 3 is one if you said nonbelief in the trinity owill not make you a non christian neither will it affect your salvation? none. no one is gonna buy that 3 is one unless they are threaten with loss of salvation and being a non christian,

 

[2ducklow]

Colossians 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, ASV

godhead is not a word found in the b ible. it is old english for godhood. but no one takes it to mean godhood, everyone takes godhead to mean the place where the trinity hangs out. which is not the meaning of the Greek word theotes in col. 2.9. theotes means god essence, or divinity, not godhead. any one who cares what theotes means knows that, those that are more interested in preserving the trinity doctrine obviously don't care what theotes means.

so you start your discussion here from a nonscriptural basis. thus everything is wrong below.

The trinity is a term used to describe the nature of God as revealed in scripture.

there is no verse talking about the nature of God or trinity.

Theology is also not a word found in the Bible. Bible is a word not found in the Bible. Use your head for something other than an empty cistern to be filled by those who teach false doctrines. Study the Bible (even though the word isn't in the Bible).

oh my, you use the word godhead and don't care what the correct translation of col. 2.9 is an accuse me of being dumb???????

 

[2ducklow]

The doctrine of the trinity is only the study of the true genuine Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit who are the one God YHVH.

you just named 3 individuals each of which you call god then say they are one god. illogic supremo.
you gotta say something that makes sense before it can be true, go back to the drawing boards on this one you failed first grade logic here.

It is only a tool to authenticate one is not deceived an placing their trust in anyone or anything that is not the true God (which is in accordance with what God revealed about the Godhead).

ridiculous. a word found no where in the bible, trinity is a tool to authenticate if one is decieved or not?No way. the bible is the tool to determine if one is deceived. what the word says determines if one is decieved and it don't say trinity.

JW?

LOL This has been so often refuted... but here goes again.

The Watchtower's problems (other than their failed prophecies of the return of Jesus Christ beginning in the late 1800's but centering mostly on 1914 which never happened... especially considering Jesus' own words "believe them not who say he is come into the secret chambers" (Matthew 24:26) which is how the Watchtower tried to trick its way out of those busted prophecies...) has a real problem with the Christadelphian interpolation of John 1:1.

I aint jw.

First of all A predicate nominative is a noun or pronoun which follows the verb and describes or renames the subject. It is another way of naming the subject. It follows a linking verb. There is no reason whatsoever for it to change God to god or a god. None.

and I didn't say that.
jw's say that. Obvioulsy you can't understand what a qualitative predicate nominative is despite my detailed explanation.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And if you are going to pursue the missing article before theos argument, then you'd better be prepared to say the Bible teaches polytheism because John 17:20 mentions God two more times with no article before theos (adding two more gods the Bible legitimizes to the one in John 1:1).

john 17.20 is not a predicate nominative joined by the verb to be or to become. that is the case in john 1.1 which requires that God is most probably a qualitative predicate nominative.

even many trinitarians admit that God in 'the word was God" is a qualitative predicate nominative.

E. C. Colwell: "...predicate nouns preceding the verb cannot be regarded as indefinite or qualitative simply because they lack the article; it could be regarded as indefinite or qualitative only if this is demanded by the context and in the case of John 1:1c this is not so." "A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New Testament," Journal of Biblical Literature, 52 (1933), p. 20.

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/john_11.htm

Of course I believe the context demands that God is qualitative. anyone who thinks 3 is one has a different idea of what the context is. I don't believe 3 is one, neither does any first grader.

Philip B. Harner: "Perhaps the clause could be translated, 'the Word had the same nature as God." This would be one way of representing John's thought, which is, as I understand it, that ho logos, no less than ho theos, had the nature of theos." "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," Journal of Biblical Literature, 92, 1 (March 1973, p. 87.

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/New_World_Translation/john_11.htm
so the bible scholar Harner says theos is qualitative.. His idea of what qualitativei is is ridiculous in this verse though. for he just changed God to God's nature. that isn't a qualitative use of the word Theos.
but the point is he sees it as qualitative and he is a trinitarian.

This is the schizophrenic mind set of the JW (should you only share in their doctrine)...

I have nothing in common with JW belief on john 1.1c. I believe theos is a qualitative predicate nominative, they believe it is an indefinite predicate nominative, and you believe, whether you know it or not, that theos is a definite predictate nominative.. try to understand these three concepts.

they believe there is one God, yet they subscribe to a doctrine that denies the one God as the Bible reveals and make out the Bible itself as though it legitimizes gods other than the false gods.

YOu got no room to talk you name 3 different gods then refuse to add these 3 individuals up unless you call them something else such as the nonbiblical term person of God, which no one knows what it is, then you have absolutely no difficulty correctly adding these individuals up to 3. so you got 3 gods, refuse to acknowledge it and claim you have one god. It is a totally nonsensical and illogical mess that no one understands neither can understand because your b eliefs are contradictions..

And there can only be one or the other true or false gods. So the Watchtowerlings at the door usually hear their mommy calling them about this point in our discussion and the leave as fast as their fat little legs will carry them.

Can't have it both ways.

One last thing about your posts:

Trinitarian doctrine teaches that God is Spirit. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

Illogical fallacy #1 of yours here. You will notice here that I explain how your statements are illogical and nonsesnical instead of your method which is name it and claim it, say i make illogical statements then show nothing i said that is illogical, but since you are trinitarian that is the only option available to you.
, you named 3 gods here. and there is only one God.

The Word became a man in addition to his deity.

Illogical fallacy # 2 of yours here.
the word did not become a man and the word is not a diety. the word is what God says, and what God says isn't god.

The Father and the Holy Spirit are still Spirit.

Illogical fallacy #3 of yours here.
the holy spirit is the spirit of God the Father, the only true God. there are not 2 beings here only one.

it in the man Jesus is still Spirit.

You directly contradict scripture and what Jesus himself said after his resurrection.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus says here he is not a spirit you say he is a spirit, icontradiction supremo.

Don't be hung up on God being Spirit being a problem too big for God to solve in order to bridge the gap between humanity and God.

I am not hung up on God being a spirit.

God didn't bridge the gap between God and man, the man Christ jesus did, thus you contradict scripture for the umpteenth time.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[2ducklow]

It looks like it's in pain.

Now that's a godhead for you.

I agree that 'divinity' should be used, it is far more accurate.

I have observed that many trinitarians cannot g ive it up despite the fact that it is uncontroversial that theotes does not mean god head, because the word is so essential to the trinity doctrine.

 

[2ducklow]

One cannot reason with those who will not be reasoned with. There is always some form of argumentation to drop back to or another controversy to stir up to avoid the texts. So I have long since given up on you folks.

The judgment will show who has and who has not abided by scripture.

and it is impossible to reason with someone who claims that 3 is one.

 

[johnd]

and it is impossible to reason with someone who claims that 3 is one.

You mean like three brothers are one family?

 

[johnd]

Anybody who denies the Trinity denies the genuine God; for this is what God revealed about the nature of the true Godhead.

Anyone who says Jesus is God has the spirit of the antichrist. Because God is a spirit and not flesh and blood.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The point the Apostle John was making was that any who tamper with the theology / christology is of the false messiah... or the devil. The particular heresy he was dealing with at the time he wrote the verse was Gnosticism (which said Jesus was only a Spirit and not flesh). But the point and the principle are well made and well taken.

So, Duck, this means only one thing since we are agreed that the Jesus I believe in and the Jesus you believe in are not the same Jesus, one of us is of the antichrist.

Let this be a lesson for any who do battle to defend truth / scripture. That you must put on the full armor of God to do battle because the spiritual warfare waged is with the followers and spirit of antichrist / antigod.

That being the case, Duckie, if behooves us all to be very certain of what we believe. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord of the Bible and not the concept of God held by mere men.

 

[johnd]

Saying Jesus is God is saying he is come in the spirit and not in the flesh. Why? because God is a spirit.

Splitting hairs? Jesus is God in that the Spirit within his human body is divine. Just like your spirit, Duckie, goes by your name or is included when you are referred to. I really doubt people refer to you as Duckie and the spirit within your mortal body....

When the incarnation is clinically discussed, then such hair splitting is called for. But in the general exchange of points here, it is a desperate attempt to bolster a false christology on your part, sir.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Greek in the passage says "pneuma ho theos" God is Spirit. or quite literally "Spirit the God." "A" (as in God is A Spirit) was added in by the translators. There are numerous examples of this tense of pneuma in the NT (1 Corinthians 12:4 for example).

Regarding the incarnation...

I doubt we need to waste any more time discussing heresies about the incarnation which neither of us believe. For example:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

This means the Spirit within Jesus is fully divine, not the totality of God. John 1:1 and John 1:14 indicate that God the Word became a man which Philippians 2:6 describes in the Greek as the taking on of an additional nature in that (morphe theos huparchon) never ceasing to be God he became a man. And that humanity is of the same innocence of pre-fall Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) and is one with his Spirit yet distinct enough to be referred to thus:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So Jesus is BOTH God and man.

John 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.ASV

Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;ASV

Pick your favorite English translation, huh?

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)

Through him suggests there is another person / individual capable of such a feat as creating all things who must be distinguished as not being the one who did the creating. All things were created through B (meaning they were not created through A or J or whichever). In any case, the original Greek indicates by / through as two of several definitions of the word dia. But there is no mistaking the word eis in that all things were created for him to him unto him...

So if you want to play the distinction game between God and the man Jesus that the Watchtower-ites do, then you run into the same problems they do. Why would God create all things through a man and for a man? I mean, who is the ultimate glory for? Also, you run afoul of the co-nature of Jesus in Philippians 2:6 and John 1:14. And if that is not enough biblical context to get you to raise the white flag...

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

So your use of "through whom" is in error. The proper use of the expression is to determine which one of the individuals in the Godhead did the creating.

 

[johnd]

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.ASV

Nothing about any plurality of persons in the godhead in john 1.18.

Are you serious?

Father and Son are plurality. Tell me, whose face do you shave in the mornings? Yours or dear old Dad's?

Back to the incarnation points again. The Spirit in the man Jesus of Nazareth is deity. Distinguished (by your own citations of John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16) from other individuals capable of creating (Isaiah 44:24). Along with the clear reference of the Word being God yet somehow was WITH God (John 1:1) even before the incarnation.

So the very verse you cite points out a plurality in the Godhead.

IN fact God head, and plurality of persons are not biblical terms. Just ideas invented by man.

Extrabiblical terms used to describe what the Bible reveals. Hermeneutics eschatology soterology theology christology there are lots of terms that are about what is in the Bible while not necessarily spoken of in the Bible verbatim.

Nice try.

 

[2ducklow]

You mean like three brothers are one family?

3 brothers are not one family, they are one family figuratively. three brothers makeup one family (literally). trinity teaches that 3 gods are one god literally. thus since trinity teaches that 3 gods are one god, they are saying 3 is one.

 

[2ducklow]

The point the Apostle John was making was that any who tamper with the theology / christology is of the false messiah... or the devil. The particular heresy he was dealing with at the time he wrote the verse was Gnosticism (which said Jesus was only a Spirit and not flesh). But the point and the principle are well made and well taken.

So, Duck, this means only one thing since we are agreed that the Jesus I believe in and the Jesus you believe in are not the same Jesus, one of us is of the antichrist.

Incorrect, I believe we both believe in the same Jesus. You of course do not.

Let this be a lesson for any who do battle to defend truth / scripture. That you must put on the full armor of God to do battle because the spiritual warfare waged is with the followers and spirit of antichrist / antigod.

That being the case, Duckie, if behooves us all to be very certain of what we believe. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord of the Bible and not the concept of God held by mere men.

trinity is a man made concept of God. it is found no where in teh bible.

 

[2ducklow]

Splitting hairs? Jesus is God in that the Spirit within his human body is divine. Just like your spirit, Duckie, goes by your name or is included when you are referred to. I really doubt people refer to you as Duckie and the spirit within your mortal body....

then Jesus is not fully man if his spirit is not a human spirit as you assert. and thus you cannot saythat Jesus is fully man, without contradicting yourself.

When the incarnation is clinically discussed, then such hair splitting is called for. But in the general exchange of points here, it is a desperate attempt to bolster a false christology on your part, sir.



The Greek in the passage says "pneuma ho theos" God is Spirit. or quite literally "Spirit the God." "A" (as in God is A Spirit) was added in by the translators. There are numerous examples of this tense of pneuma in the NT (1 Corinthians 12:4 for example).

either one is true and either one is correct grammatically. there was no indefinite article (a or an) in ancient Greek, so it is left up to the translator to determine whether a or an is or isn't appropriate. God is a spirit amongst many spirits, angels are spirits, demons are spirits, and god the Father the only true God is a spirit being. God is spirit is rather awkward actually in English.

Regarding the incarnation...

I doubt we need to waste any more time discussing heresies about the incarnation which neither of us believe. For example:

incarnation is not in the bible, it is a result of a partially literal interpretation of the highly figurative verse john 1.14. THus there is no supporting evidence to interpret john 1.14 to mean incarnation in that incarnation is not in the bible, it is a reincarnationists concept, not biblical.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

godhead is not in the bible there is no Greek word anywhere in the entire bible that means Godhead.

This means the Spirit within Jesus is fully divine, not the totality of God. John 1:1 and John 1:14 indicate that God the Word became a man which Philippians 2:6 describes in the Greek as the taking on of an additional nature in that (morphe theos huparchon) never ceasing to be God he became a man. And that humanity is of the same innocence of pre-fall Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45) and is one with his Spirit yet distinct enough to be referred to thus:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So Jesus is BOTH God and man.

1 tim 2.5 can in on way be used to prove that Jesus is God and man. If the man christ jesus means Jesus is god and man , the when I say "the man 2ducklow" i have just proved I am god and man. which ain't so.

Pick your favorite English translation, huh?

the Greek word is dia which means through. you probably know that.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)

Through him suggests there is another person / individual capable of such a feat as creating all things who must be distinguished as not being the one who did the creating. All things were created through B (meaning they were not created through A or J or whichever). In any case, the original Greek indicates by / through as two of several definitions of the word dia. But there is no mistaking the word eis in that all things were created for him to him unto him...

all things were created through him in a figurative sense. God created all things for and because of Jesus is the figurative meaning.

So if you want to play the distinction game between God and the man Jesus that the Watchtower-ites do,

My beliefs are in no way similar to JW's. they believe Jesus is a demigod, or half god, I believe he is the new man created to replace the old man us. I believe Jesus is not any kind of god. Your beliefs are more similar to JW's than mine in that you both consider him a god, just different kinds of gods. you think he is 1/3 of the one god, they think he is a half god.
so how does it feel to be in the JW camp john?

[quote



then you run into the same problems they do. Why would God create all things through a man and for a man?

what problem? The whole purpose of creation is for God to have sons and daughters like him. If we become like Jesus who is the image of the invisible god, then we become in the image of God. So what is the problem you see?

I mean, who is the ultimate glory for?

the Glory that Jesus has is the same Glory that we have. which is the glory of God's own presence in our lives.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


here Jesus asks for the glory of God's own self which adam had in the Garden of Eden and lost there. Jesus already had the Glory of God's own self when he asked for it so he was asking as a standin for the first adam which is born out by the fact that Jesus later on gave this glory to his believers.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

Also, you run afoul of the co-nature of Jesus in Philippians 2:6 and John 1:14. And if that is not enough biblical context to get you to raise the white flag...

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

So your use of "through whom" is in error. The proper use of the expression is to determine which one of the individuals in the Godhead did the creating.

Godhead is a false nonbiblical concept. theotes doesn't mean godhead. you have not proven that through whom is in error in anyway. your assertions lack any cohesive thought.

 

[2ducklow]

Are you serious?

Father and Son are plurality. Tell me, whose face do you shave in the mornings? Yours or dear old Dad's?

You ridiculed something I did not say. Go back and read it again. I said there is no mention of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, IN THE GODHEAD. Actually God is never called a person, there is no mention of a godhead in the bible God is a person and god is a godhead is all fantasyland stuff. not in the bible...

Back to the incarnation points again. The Spirit in the man Jesus of Nazareth is deity.

That would mean Jesus is not fully man for it means he has no human spirit. thus when you say JEsus is fully man you contradict yourself. You have described a Jesus that is 2/3 human, body soul and no human spirit. Plus you have a tremendous problem with logic, for we are soulical beings not spirit beings, we humans are soulical beings that have a human spirit, we are not our spirits anymore than we are our bodys, we occupy our bodies and use our human spirit, thus if jesus has a human soul then he is that being and he is also the being who is the omnipresent spirit being God the father or YHWH. thus you have 2 beings that are Jesus. thus you have 2 Jesuses.

Distinguished (by your own citations of John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16) from other individuals capable of creating (Isaiah 44:24). Along with the clear reference of the Word being God yet somehow was WITH God (John 1:1) even before the incarnation.

the word of God is what God says, it is not someone but something. the word is sometimes personified you take god's use of a personification of his word and claim the word is god god the father is god, 2 persons of god one god. which is nonsense, which only proves that since the result of taking what god intended as a personification results in nonsense and contradicitons, it therefore has to be a personification. that's one reason God gave us a brain so we c ould be able to figure this stuff out with.

So the very verse you cite points out a plurality in the Godhead.

godhead is a nonbiblcal word and concept, theotes in now way means godhead.
your not even in the ball park here.

Extrabiblical terms used to describe what the Bible reveals. Hermeneutics eschatology soterology theology christology there are lots of terms that are about what is in the Bible while not necessarily spoken of in the Bible verbatim.

Nice try.

Trinity is nowhere found in the bible. You say believe trinity or you ain't a christian. God would not require someone to beleive a nonsensical doctrine such as trinity, and nowhere state it in his word then require one to believe it to b e saved. God lays out clearly what one must do to be saved, and he never ever ever says 'beleive the trinity and thou shalt be saved" which is what you assert over and over in so many words. in effect you are saying, 'believe my interpetation of john 1.1 or you are not saved." "believe THe word was God' means Jesus is a person of God along with 2 others who make up the one true god or you are not saved and a non christian." Which is adding to the word of god because your interpretation of scripture becomes the requirement for salvation, not scripture.

 

[2ducklow]

godhead

The word "Godhead" occurs three times in the scriptures (Acts 17: 29, Rom. 1: 20, Col. 2: 9, KJV). There are two different Greek words translated Godhead in these occurrences, theiotes and theotes. Thayer says Godhead (theiotes) means, "divinity, divine nature" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pg. 285). Vine distinguishes between these two words: "Theiotes, the attributes of God, His Divine nature and properties; theotes indicates the Divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God" (W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words). The Godhead, then, is divinity, divine nature, and the essence of God, simply stated. It is essential that we also understand the term inspired writers used to designate the Creator - "God." "God" is from the Greek theios which means "divine, deity" (Thayer, pg. 285).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Great%20Truths/GT01.htm

so all the fullness of the personality of God dwells in Christ, which matches up with other scripture which states that God was in christ, not God was christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

<<<wadding up the word godhead and tossing it in the trash can where it belongs with a loud KAPLUNK>>>

 

[johnd]

3 brothers are not one family, they are one family figuratively. three brothers makeup one family (literally). trinity teaches that 3 gods are one god literally. thus since trinity teaches that 3 gods are one god, they are saying 3 is one.

Nope. Trinity teaches the one God is a compound unity (like one family is a compound unity) . There are not three gods there is one God consisting of three individuals who are the one God. Just as in one family where three brothers are the one family.

 

[johnd]

Incorrect, I believe we both believe in the same Jesus. You of course do not.

That's not possible. What are you so uncertain of your Jesus that you are too scared to say you don't believe in my Jesus?

Matthew 24:24 false christs
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 another Jesus
Galatians 1:8-9 a different gospel

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You'd better be more certain you have the correct / genuine Jesus than you seem to be, Partner! You don't want to find out in the judgment you followed the wrong Jesus.

trinity is a man made concept of God. it is found no where in teh bible.

It's all through the Bible. It's divine revelation.

 

[johnd]

you are a little mixed up here as to who is and isn't apostate. but it always helps to dis someoone by calling their church apostate. the facts speak otherwise of course. the bible says God is one, not god is 3 in one.

The Bible teaches that three co-existent, co-eternal individuals are the one God.

that should be a hint to you.of course you provide no proof that anything I said was fractured logic or that any thing was misquoted scripture, just name it and claim it huh?

Shall I provide it yet again? You said I never have. But it's easy for me to because all I have to do is copy and paste what I've already written and you deny was ever written. I'll do it yet again so you can deny it again... how's that?

Anybody who denies the Trinity denies the genuine God; for this is what God revealed about the nature of the true Godhead.
It is not enough to believe in A God, or A Jesus, or A version of some theological dogma that is in contradiction to what God said about the Godhead.
Jesus told the orthodox Jews of his day (bastions of holy writ, worshippers of the true God YHVH) that they neither knew him or his Father (John 8:19), that whoever denies the Son denies the Father (John 5:23, John 15:23, 1 John 2:22-23), and Paul taught that there were counterfeit gospels, spirits and Jesus' being taught (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, Galatians 1:8-9) as early as his second missionary journey (the time he wrote 2 Corinthians).
It is therefore imperative that we believe in the genuine God the genuine Christ the genuine Spirit the genuine Gospel. And what better way to discover all that is genuine, than taking him at his word? And to stop trying to put our doctrinal spins and traditions on what is revealed in scripture.
God revealed in scripture that there is one God (Isaiah 43:10-11).
The Father is God (John 20:17).
The Son is God (John 1:1, John 1:14).
The Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).
The Father is not the Son or the Spirit. (John 14:26, John 15:26)
The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. (John 14:26, John 15:26)
The Spirit is not the Father or the Son. (John 14:26, John 15:26)
Only the Son has taken upon himself the additional nature of humanity (Philippians 2:5-11). He is the Creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16) and the God of the Old Testament who hinted at but did not fully reveal the plurality of persons within the Godhead (John 1:18).

guess with your illogical nonsensical trinity doctrine that is the only option available to you.

Quoting the scriptures to show the nature of God as God revealed it means you should not call God non-sense.

And I am not an apostate from the trinity doctrine because i never ever believed, Actually an apostate trinitarian is something to be desired for trinity is untruth,

You say Apostolic, I say Apostate. You belong to the same group.

and apostasy from untruth is prima. But too I am not an apostate from believeing God's word.

Actually you twist God's word.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I believe every single word of it.

No you don't.

Try this on for size:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

More than one individual is God and one of them became the man Jesus. Let's just see how much of every word you believe...

 

[johnd]

you are calling me an apostate because I don't interpret certain scriptures the way you do.

No because you twist them not to mean what God meant them to.

that doesn't make me an apostate.

Sure it does. And a heretic. And as I quoted in 2 Peter 3:16 it is to your own destruction.

but then when one has a nonsensical doctrine like trinity the only sure way to get people to believe it is threaten them with hell fire and say they aren't a christian unless they believe the nonsensical trinity doctrine.

You keep saying that without any proof it's nonsense. Now who is the one making the unsubstantiated claims? Me? I quote scripture. You? You just give your ranting opinions.

it's been going on ever since the council of nicea, and it's the only reason people believe it because of the threat of hell fire and excomunication trinitarians sling at anyone who denys it.

Actually it is believed since then because it's biblical, and the council of Nicea was in part to amalgamate inspired scripture and not misiniterpret the Bible by isolating passages like you do.

But the bible don't say it

...the way Duckie and Oneness types want it to be said... but it is revealed in scripture as I have showed you already.

and I aint in the least persuaded by the threat that unbelief in trinity results in one being non christian.

You simply refuse to believe the truth. That is sadly a human trait most people have. That's why the road to destruction is broad and many are on it while the road to life is narrow and few find it. They don't want it to be the way it is. And you are among them despite what the Bible says contrary to what you believe. And you are self-deluded enough to think you believe the Bible. Look at how little you quote the Bible.

why? because I've read the bible is why.

And yet you oppose what it says. You choose to believe what you want to believe despite what the Bible teaches. So you have not benefited at all by reading it.

how many people do you think you could get to believe that 3 is one if you said nonbelief in the trinity owill not make you a non christian neither will it affect your salvation? none.

It's not about fear tactics, Duckie, it's about what is true and what is false. It doesn't matter how many or how few believe the truth or if any one believes the truth... the truth is still the truth.

no one is gonna buy that 3 is one unless they are threaten with loss of salvation and being a non christian,

I am proof you are wrong. I did not come to believe in the Triune God of the Bible by threats or fear. I discovered this wondrous God by simply reading the Word God gave. I simply believe God. No threats, no fear. Just a willingness to let God tell me the truth and that's all.