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Is the Church a higher authority than the scripture?

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Albion

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Dear Albion,

Let me get back to what we were talking about a little earlier.

you quoted and said:



okay great. So let me just take the next step with you in what I am trying to convey.

If sinful men could be made able to write the bible infallibly, what is to stop sinful men from being made able to interpet it infallibly?


I'd say that that is not the question.

We can speculate all night on what men MIGHT be able to do, God willing, but what matters is what they actually can do. Isn't that so, when we get right down to it?

If not, we could discuss whether men could possibly fly without wings or see into the future...just so long as we attach the proviso that God would allow it or make it possible.

We say and believe that the Bible has integrity although penned by sinful men under God's direction because that is the testimony of the Bible itself! You've already stated that you believe the Bible to be perfect and without error, so you must believe that these men were doing what we think they were doing, sin or no sin.

When we turn to the speculation about the institutional church, we have a host of problems. None, however, is more critical than that we have no particular reason to believe that "the church" is infallible. We have reason to believe the Bible infallible and have agreed to it. But the idea of a body of men being infallible is contrary to all that we know of the human condition, so unless there is some clear and compelling reason to think that God did, in fact, make men infallible under the circumstances you are looking at, we don't. It makes no sense to do otherwise.
 
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CatholicFlame

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Two questions for you:

Does God want all people to understand the scriptures perfectly?

How can God do this without someone to teach it perfectly?


These questions should cause us to leap for joy. Because God does indeed want us to have no error in our understanding of His revelation. Who would ever think He has decided that we have error?
 
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Albion

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Well I have no regrets in saying that God can use men to teach infallibly.

Of course not. Neither do I.

We both agreed that the Bible is without error...so there we have God using men to teach infallibly.
 
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CatholicFlame

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Ha caught you Albion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicFlame
Well I have no regrets in saying that God can use men to teach infallibly.

Of course not. We both agreed that the Bible is without error...and the Bible is divine revelation.

I was talking about the church!
 
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sunlover1

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Dear Sun,

I have realized something about what happens when people explain these scriptures from the catholic position. It will cause us not to be friends any longer. I am sorry that this is what seems to happen alot. I have lost alot of good friends because I have explained this stuff to them. An yeah, although it is true that we are both really christians who love the Lord, and know Him, this really happens. I tried to gain back my old friends but they don't want anything to do with me anymore.

But in all honestly, I am sad that I have to do this, not because I don't want to help you, but because we may not become friends if I do.


Isn't that ironic. I would be answering this because I care about you and consider you a friend.
That happens because many people become easily
offended, CF (Ben isnt it?).
I don't happen to be one of those who becomes
easily offended (USUALLY anyhow lol).
:D
So no worries there Ben.
You speak your truth
and I will try to be open.


I almost wish I could just say that you will figure this out later. But I know that you are asking right now.

So be it!

1. Call no man father

Jesus says call no man on earth your father. You have but one Father in heaven.

Of course I still call my dad father. That would be missing the point if I took this that literally.
I"m thinking so yeah.
:thumbsup:

2. Do not pray repetively

Every song we sing is really a prayer to the Lord. Unless you don't sing to Him and you are only mouthing words with everyone else.

So yes songs are prayers. But we all know tht we pray that we sing those same words and choruses over and over again. That is repetitive isn't it?

The point Jesus makes is that you must not just be mouthing words off, but really praying them. If I Sing "Jesus I adore you" over and over, is that a sin?

lol no it isn't. Or what about those heavenly angels in heaven who sing "holy holy holy" endlessly?

They aren't sinning.
Bingo !
That's exactly what I've thought of too Ben.
Those angels singing Holy Holy Holy, Lord
God almighty, who was and is and is forevermore.
OVER and OVER and OVER..

This is why I try to understand the distinction!
Because there is indeed a distinction, has to be.


Does it bother you what I have said
Sun? I hope that you will take it in stride. Stride towards our Lord


I will try to answer the rest a little later.

God bless you Sun.

peace be with you in Jesus our Lord
Thank you ben.
Sometimes I think of how we sing at church,
same words sometimes over and over and over,
and it's towards Father, same as if it were
spoken without music (prayer)...
Hmmm

Thanks for the discussion.
Obviously each deserves
it's own thread, but thank you
for that attempt.

sunlover
 
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Albion

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I was talking about the church!

All right, but that's not what you wrote. You wrote that you believe God can use men to teach infallibly. Well, so do I.

Now if you want turn to the church as infallible and tell us that although there is no Biblical or logical reason to believe this, but you do anyway, be my guest. It is not my intention to convert anyone here away from their own church, never has been.
 
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HisKid1973

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CF..Why are we told to "study to show ourselves approved'', to discern the spirits, watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing Why did they have councils to decide what was error..Why would Paul rebuke your first pope?
 
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NavyGuy7

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Well I have no regrets in saying that God can use men to teach infallibly.

Men, yes. And the church, sometimes. But as in the case of my hometown church, men can become so full of pride and arrogance they destroy their ministry. And there are those who teach incorrect and/or false doctrines, even if they've been corrected. May God have mercy on their souls, for when they knowingly preach incorrect/false doctrines even after being corrected, it is counted as sin against them.

In response to the OP, I'd have to say the Church doesn't have higher authority than the scriptures in their unaltered form; however, it is no replacement for the human fellowship found in the church.
 
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CatholicFlame

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Albion...

I know that it you may not like to believe it, but it is just what I wrote.

please read this again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicFlame
Well I have no regrets in saying that God can use men to teach infallibly.

Of course not. Neither do I.
 
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JoabAnias

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We know where the truth is to be found, so it calls for no additional commentary.
The Bible is the only guaranteed source of religious guidance, not custom, legend, folktales, tradition, theologians' speculations, or any other manmade opinion.

I respectfully disagree.

The Holy Spirit is the only guaranteed source of truth.

St. John said that the world isn't large enough to contain all the books it would take to record all that Jesus has done.

This means there is much more truth available than what is in Scripture.

If Scripture was all it took then Jesus wouldn't have bothered founding a Church and would have just told His to write the bible. In fact He never told them to write anything down.

Instead He instituted an assembly and gave an example to follow as a way of living.

I must say its disconcerting for Sola Scripturists to claim all truth is in the Bible but fail to practice all the Bible tells us too. They cannot do all the Bible tells them because its not available to them where they are. Its as bad a hypocracy as any sin anyone in the Church has ever committed.

The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was only the first one. There have been 21 more since then. Are they less inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit because they are not in the record the Church has passed on infallibly as infallible?

Peace.
 
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JoabAnias

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CF..Why are we told to "study to show ourselves approved'', to discern the spirits, watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing Why did they have councils to decide what was error..Why would Paul rebuke your first pope?

A Horshack Oow Oow with hand raised.

I have an answer for this if neither of you would mind me butting in?

Peace.
 
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Albion

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I respectfully disagree.

The Holy Spirit is the only guaranteed source of truth.

I consider an answer like that to be just too coy. When I say that Scipture, the Word of God, is the authority we can trust, of course that's only because it is the Word of God, i.e. that it comes from God who is ultimately the authority. When we believe the word, we believe it because of where it comes from. So if you say, no, it's the Holy Spirit--God-- you are just saying the same thing except that you don't want to believe that God's revelation in scripture was successful.

St. John said that the world isn't large enough to contain all the books it would take to record all that Jesus has done.

And don't omit give us the whole of John's advice--what is recorded in the Bible is all that we need. (Jn 20-30:31) He, John, tells us that we don't need any suplement, not that we do!

This means there is much more truth available than what is in Scripture.

Not at all. Read the verse and don't read INTO it what you want it to say. What he says is that IT WOULD TAKE, not that THERE IS...

In fact, he's saying that there's no need for the rest that COULD be written since this, scripture, tells us all that we need.

And you are arguing that you want to add to it nevertheless.:sigh:

If Scripture was all it took then Jesus wouldn't have bothered founding a Church

What an illogical conclusion. The church was founded for exactly the reason Jesus said it was founded: to spread the Gospel, baptise all nations, etc. It was not founded in order to add to his teachings. He commissioned his Apostles to go into the whole world, etc. AFTER he had finished his years of public teaching.

In fact He never told them to write anything down.

You don't know that. It is quite presumptuous, not to say almost ridiculous, to decide that when Paul was called by God, for instance, and made an Apostle, his life's work--writing to and comunicating the Gospel throughout the Empire--was something he decided to do on his own and had nothing to do with God's call to him on the road to Damascus. And it was Paul who was the most prolific contributor to the New Testament.

I must say its disconcerting for Sola Scripturists to claim all truth is in the Bible but fail to practice all the Bible tells us too.

And I must say it's disconcerting to have those who argue so adamantly against the sufficiency of the Bible then base their contention that more is needed....ON THE BIBLE. What an obvious contradition. First, you say that the Bible doesn't do what it needs to do, then you say the the organized church is supposed to do it instead, and then you try to use the source you've just discredited as the basis for that! You can't have it both ways.

They cannot do all the Bible tells them because its not available to them where they are.

Of course it is. You, meanwhile have no idea of the add-ons that you are contending are so essential. I have asked Catholics over and over again for some of the must-believe doctrines that they have--and, by implication, we should too--that come to us purely through this non-Bible method.

No one has yet named a one. You won't be able to, either. It's undeniably strange, isn't it, considering that all the arguments in favor of your extra-Biblical methodology are well-rehearsed, but when you get through arguing for how we are to know God's will, you don't know what it is?

Its as bad a hypocracy as any sin anyone in the Church has ever committed.

If it were a hypocrisy. What I've outlined about your duplicity is clearly a much better example of such a thing.

The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was only the first one.

We accept it as correct because its decision is incorporated into scripture which itself is inerrant.

There have been 21 more since then. Are they less inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit because they are not in the record the Church has passed on infallibly as infallible?

There is no reason to think that these conventions of men are infallible, or that they are Holy Spirit guided or inspired. Most were just the meetings of the leaders of one denomination, not representative of the whole church, and cannot be considered Ecumenical Councils in any way.
 
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HisKid1973

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I consider an answer like that to be just too coy. When I say that Scipture, the Word of God, is the authority we can trust, of course that's only because it IS the Word of God, i.e. that it comes from God who is ultimately the authority. When we believe the word, we believe it because of where it comes from.ect ect. .

Thanks brother for your sharp mind at 57..What your share is just wisdom from the whole council of God..If people would just study to show themselves approved they would see a differance than what is just parroted to them..That what is so scary about just blindly following what the status quo..
 
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Albion

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Albion...

I know that it you may not like to believe it, but it is just what I wrote.

please read this again:

I have no problem with it in the least. I said that I believe it also!

Yes, God can inspire sinful men to teach us infallibly. He did that with the Holy Scriptures.

The difference between us is only that you have a theory that he inspired sinful men to teach us infallibly in some other way. But of course you have no way of knowing that. It's a fond theory that, as you pointedly asserted, you believe just because you want to.
 
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Albion

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Thanks brother for your sharp mind at 57..What your share is just common sense from the whole council of God..If people would just study to show themselves approved they would see a differance than what is just parroted to them..That what is so scary about just blindly following what the status quo..

Thank you for the kind words, HisKid. It almost amazes me how well-intentioned people cannot bring themselves to believe what God has given them. It's as though they can't stand the simplicity and genuineness of God's graciousness.

They yearn for something more before they'll feel assured. It can't be that straightforward, they think.

They want something that amounts to additional, inside information from men like themselves. They can appreciate powerful men; they cannot appreciate a God who is so loving as to not make salvation available without a lot of strings, because that's now how we get anything else in ordinary life.

What is it, I often wonder, that makes people not want to trust God to have loved us enough to have actually done what he said in his revelation that he would and did do for us?

They need intermediaries to pray to, although God is waiting to hear from them directly.

They reason that the need to do good works in order to prove themselves worthy to God, although God did the work for us on the Cross.

They feel the need to have men get together and tell them that the Word of God is unintelligible but that they, fellow humans, will compile a library of canon law and theological dissertations on "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" in order--allegedly--to make it easier to understand!!

They can't accept that when God chose to tell us what he did in scripture, that it is exactly what he wanted to tell us. Always, there's the looking for something extra, and something from fellow men.

Faith is trusting God, not working out some reason for God to consider doing what we think he shouldn't have any reason to do for us. It is believing God, not learning about God. It is accepting what God has given us, not second-guessing God's wisdom in doing so.

This is not denominational, as they think. It is not pro-this or anti-that church. It is more basic by far.
 
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Rick Otto

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The Holy Spirit is the only guaranteed source of truth.
St. John said that the world isn't large enough to contain all the books it would take to record all that Jesus has done.
This means there is much more truth available than what is in Scripture.
God is the origin & authority of all truth. He has revealed much of it in creation itself. SOLA SCRIPTURA does not define scripture as SOLE SOURCE, it identifies scripture as the SOLE MEASURE of any alleged truth from any & every source, be it Angel, burro, or fortune cookie.
Jo, until you "get" that, you won't be addressing real issues we have, you'll be wrestling with confusion over terms.
 
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