Is the Church a higher authority than the scripture?

[CatholicFlame]

Dear Sun,

I wanna say two different things right now.

The first is about the bible. Everybody here believes that the bible is without error I am sure. But how interesting that is for us to believe!

Think of this! We believe that although men prone to sin wrote the bible, the work of these men in this regard is perfect and without error.

Do you follow this logic?

It follow that the church (who chose infallibly what the canon should be) can and does have the ability to make infallible decisions.

I have presented two points in this:

1. By God's grace, sinful men can produce infallible works for God.

and 2: Every Christian already believes that the church is infallible, at least when it put the canon together.

From my point of view I see this:

okay, the church had to choose which of hundreds of ooks belonged to the new testament. And the decision that it made was made infallibly! We all beleive that the scripture is perfect. All the books that are supposed to be there are there. And, there aren't any books there that aren't supposed to be there.

That was an infallible decsion made by fallible men.

this is possible.


peace be with you

 

[HisKid1973]

CF... Were all the churches listed in Revelation all Roman Catholic Churches?

 

[CatholicFlame]

Hey Hiskid,

let me just give you a link for now. I know that you have not really began studying the early church fathers, please take a look and pray about what you find here.

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/early_church_fathers.htm

God greatly bless you my bro

peace be with us all

 

[HisKid1973]

I read some of the link you provided...I don't read much because of my eyes but from I see hear the fathers have conflicting views..I ever seen Cath's and Ohtodox have conflicts with the same fathers..I think they can easily be skewed..I think it sorta ironic that you base the whole authority in Rome deal with one scripture,,Yet it is clearly seen that they settled issues in the NT churches via councils..Even Peter was rebuked by Paul...I see both Cath and Orthodox dogging protestantism yet they got the whole split thing going in the first place via pride..shalom..kim

 

[CatholicFlame]

Hiskid,

I hope that you just keep learning and growing, fighting the good fight and winning the salvation that Jesus has callled you to.

God bless you Hiskid.

 

[HisKid1973]

Hiskid,

I hope that you just keep learning and growing, fighting the good fight and winning the salvation that Jesus has callled you to.God bless you Hiskid.

Thank you and to you also....I just think He won it already and I trust Him to complete the work He started in me..Guess we view things a little different..

Grace and peace to you..K

 

[CatholicFlame]

Dear Sun,

I have realized something about what happens when people explain these scriptures from the catholic position. It will cause us not to be friends any longer. I am sorry that this is what seems to happen alot. I have lost alot of good friends because I have explained this stuff to them. An yeah, although it is true that we are both really christians who love the Lord, and know Him, this really happens. I tried to gain back my old friends but they don't want anything to do with me anymore.

But in all honestly, I am sad that I have to do this, not because I don't want to help you, but because we may not become friends if I do.


Isn't that ironic. I would be answering this because I care about you and consider you a friend.

Here are the things I read as a teen, that
disturbed me, that seemed to conflict with
the teachings I'd gotten from CCD.

1. Call no man father
2. Do not pray repetitiosly
3. Do not bow down to statues.
4. Don't forbid to marry or eat meat.
5. We have one advocate with the Father.

What was I to think?

I almost wish I could just say that you will figure this out later. But I know that you are asking right now.

So be it!

1. Call no man father

Jesus says call no man on earth your father. You have but one Father in heaven.

Of course I still call my dad father. That would be missing the point if I took this that literally.


2. Do not pray repetively

Every song we sing is really a prayer to the Lord. Unless you don't sing to Him and you are only mouthing words with everyone else.

So yes songs are prayers. But we all know tht we pray that we sing those same words and choruses over and over again. That is repetitive isn't it?

The point Jesus makes is that you must not just be mouthing words off, but really praying them. If I Sing "Jesus I adore you" over and over, is that a sin?

lol no it isn't. Or what about those heavenly angels in heaven who sing "holy holy holy" endlessly?

They aren't sinning.

Does it bother you what I have said
Sun? I hope that you will take it in stride. Stride towards our Lord


I will try to answer the rest a little later.

God bless you Sun.

peace be with you in Jesus our Lord

 

[Albion]

Truth is truth, why would I feel a need to show otherwise?

No one is asking you do anything like that--show something that is not the truth!

We know where the truth is to be found, so it calls for no additional commentary. The Bible is the only guaranteed source of religious guidance, not custom, legend, folktales, tradition, theologians' speculations, or any other manmade opinion.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Hiskid, you should come and read the posts we are having at this thread.

http://christianforums.com/t6562748

peace

 

[Albion]

I wanna say two different things right now.

The first is about the bible. Everybody here believes that the bible is without error I am sure. But how interesting that is for us to believe!

Think of this! We believe that although men prone to sin wrote the bible, the work of these men in this regard is perfect and without error.

Do you follow this logic?

That approach assumes that divine revelation is subject to error. I do not concede that God can be foiled in that way when he sets out to reveal himself and his will for us in written form. You should also know that the Bible itself explains that the "authors" of the various books did not write of their own opinions but as God inspired them to write. Unless you think God could not have directed or inspired these men, owing to a deficiency in himself, your theory is wrong.

It follow that the church (who chose infallibly what the canon should be) can and does have the ability to make infallible decisions.

Of course that is illogical. If you say that the Bible cannot be inerrant, you cannot base a theory of human infallibility on what the Bible tells you. That is clear. Nor can you logically say that because of sin, God cannot have inspired men to write what he wanted them to write, BUT that men--uninspired--later became inerrant in writing THEIR OWN ideas and making THEIR OWN religious decision.

I have presented two points in this:

1. By God's grace, sinful men can produce infallible works for God.

If so, sinful men certainly can write down what God inspires them to write, yet you dismiss this far more sensible conclusion in favor of arguing that they become infallible just by joining a church.

and 2: Every Christian already believes that the church is infallible, at least when it put the canon together.

The sooner you give up that fiction, the better. We Bible-believing Christians, hundreds of millions of us who are not Roman Catholics, certainly do not subscribe to that idea. It simply is factually wrong.

 

[CatholicFlame]

No, I'm not saying the bible has error! I am saying that is has no error whatsoever. The bible is prefect.

But I am saying that God has to speak through sinful men to give people infallible teachings.

 

[Albion]

No, I'm not saying the bible has error! I am saying that is has no error whatsoever. The bible is prefect.

Very good.

But I am saying that God has to speak through sinful men to give people infallible teachings.

I agree.

 

[Elrond]

2 Peter 1:19 "And so we have the prophetic word made more sure,". In context, Peter is relating the apostle's eyewitness of Jesus Christ and His power and majesty. It starts in 1:16, if you'd like to read the context. But he continues in v.19 with this statement. To me it means that no matter what he saw with his own eyes, no matter what he witnessed first hand, the prophetic word was made more sure in the Scriptures, which he addresses in v.20-21. Scripture is our sole and highest authority for it is the Word of God Himself. The Church has no authority unless granted by and through Scripture, for without that Scripture, the Church becomes mired amid the thousands of man-made religions that dot the globe.

Elrond

 

[Rick Otto]

LOL,... excuse me, crew.

I have to keep lookin' at the name of the thread to remember what it it's about.

"Is the Church a higher authority than the scripture?"

...and I think, isn't scripture the word of God? What trumps God's word? Tradition? But according to some of us at least, that is God's word", so still nothing trumps God's word!

Should I switch to decaff, maybe...?

 

[CatholicFlame]

Well if we want to be specific about it all, God's word is Jesus Himself.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1-5

So amen, nothing out trumps Jesus!

the question maybe is: Did Jesus create the church and the bible to give pass down knowledge of the truth?

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm thinkin' what' keeps happenin' is that when we try to define tradition, it frustrates some of us because there is a variable that covers an evolving consensus that results in new definitions that according to some of us, exhibit unconsciously impious norms.

Ya try'n say stuff in so's it don't T-everyone off, and it ends up indecipherable.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Yep people really do get confused about this stuff!

 

[Albion]

LOL,... excuse me, crew.

I have to keep lookin' at the name of the thread to remember what it it's about.

"Is the Church a higher authority than the scripture?"

...and I think, isn't scripture the word of God? What trumps God's word? Tradition? But according to some of us at least, that is God's word", so still nothing trumps God's word!

Should I switch to decaff, maybe...?

You're right, of course, that nothing trumps the Word of God, but just because some claim authority in OTHER THAN the Bible, this doesn't mean everyone is on the same page as regards the Word of God, i.e. the Bible, not any more than the Book of Mormon is the Third Testament of Jesus Christ merely because it is called revelation by LDS people.

 

[Albion]

the question maybe is: Did Jesus create the church and the bible to give pass down knowledge of the truth?

There's no reason to think so.

But as for the "Word of God," yes, the expression is used once in Scripture to mean Christ himself (although not in the verses you cited), but it is commonly used by everyone from the Pope to the local Protestant pastor to refer to the scriptures. Usually, the people who are uncomfortable with that are those who do not believe that the scriptures are, in fact, God's revelation.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Dear Albion,

Let me get back to what we were talking about a little earlier.

you quoted and said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatholicFlame
No, I'm not saying the bible has error! I am saying that is has no error whatsoever. The bible is prefect.

Very good.


Quote:
But I am saying that God has to speak through sinful men to give people infallible teachings.
I agree.

okay great. So let me just take the next step with you in what I am trying to convey.

If sinful men could be made able to write the bible infallibly, what is to stop sinful men from being made able to interpet it infallibly?

God gets glory in the first case. Wouldn't God receive glory in the second as well?