You can't go to heaven if you don't believe this!!!

[jiminpa]

Lots of ellipses, lots of ended and restarted quotes. Cut and paste hatchet jobs.

 

[IamAdopted]

Well I don't go by what she says..

 

[jiminpa]

BTW, by what scripture do you make such a teaching so damning, and if she has said that, how much of her teaching revolves around it? How much of what she teaches helps people grow closer to God?

Could the people behind those web sites you cite hold up under the same microscope they subject others to? The most popular of them definitely can't.

 

[Musician4Jesus]

Well it doesn't exactly defy logic to me (not that we're supposed to understand what God does half the time). When you think about it the Bible does say the wages of sin is death. God needed a perfect sacrifice to appease the wrath of God. When Jesus died for sin, he also suffered the wages of sin until he was resurrected. Since the wages of sin is death, and hell is known as the 2nd death in the Bible,
essentially he would go to hell.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Well it doesn't exactly defy logic to me (not that we're supposed to understand what God does half the time). When you think about it the Bible does say the wages of sin is death. God needed a perfect sacrifice to appease the wrath of God. When Jesus died for sin, he also suffered the wages of sin until he was resurrected. Since the wages of sin is death, and hell is known as the 2nd death in the Bible,
essentially he would go to hell.

Ouch... You see that is just the problem, that is not what scripture teaches and if we can be pulled aside on one issue, then why not others as well?

To add, this is the MOST SIGNIFICANT ISSUE WE HAVE ... SALVATION ... and she has changed that essential message.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Lots of ellipses, lots of ended and restarted quotes. Cut and paste hatchet jobs.

Show me how, if you would, that these are, as you say, hatchet jobs?

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

According to Joyce Myers Jesus death on the cross wasn't a sufficient sacrifice to pay for our sins. He also had to go to hell and suffer. There the demons in hell mocked him and got "up on him" (this she emphasizes) and mocked him saying Ah Ha Ha "you trusted in God..."
She says in a booklet "From Cross To The Throne" that, "if you don't believe this teaching there is no hope of you going to heaven."

Does anyone else believe this teaching?

Are the rest of us going to hell because we don't?

She probably has some special faculty which allows her to communicate with God--

 

[JWNEWMAN]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Joyce writes, "During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there. ...no plan was too extreme. ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell." (Underlining in the original) On page 36, she continues....... God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, 'Let Him go.' Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus. ...He was resurrected from the dead - the first born-again man. (Underlining in the original)

So can the above be found anywhere in scripture?
[/FONT]

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

Whatever happened to 'proof by potency'?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Joyce teaches that, unless you believe this particular teaching you can't be saved. Moreover, the bible can't even explain this teaching you have to receive by revelation.

So only those who receive this revelation, that Jesus went to hell and suffered torments for three days, till God stood up and said, "Enough" you can't enter heaven.

That's pretty exclusive.

no doubt. Confirms a truth: Give a human being a spotlight long enough, they're going to get haughty. Can we name others who have had "special revelations" that their "fans" had to believe on faith, and receive the same revelation? Joseph smith, Benny the Hinn.... Jimmy Swaggart, The Bakkers.... etc... etc....

Regarding Christ having to suffer the torments of hell, here is what Meyers says:

“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.”

She's admitting what she's teaching is not in the bible. Why couldn't the bible explain it? That doesn't make sense. And if it is a prerequisite to going to heaven then what? Only those who received the 'revelation' can go? Apparently, according to Joyce.

yeah... Last time I checked, the book of Joyce, nor 1st and 2nd Meyers isn't in the bible. If it doesn't match up, discard it. The teaching isn't a clear Christian Tenet whatsoever.

Well it doesn't exactly defy logic to me (not that we're supposed to understand what God does half the time). When you think about it the Bible does say the wages of sin is death. God needed a perfect sacrifice to appease the wrath of God. When Jesus died for sin, he also suffered the wages of sin until he was resurrected. Since the wages of sin is death, and hell is known as the 2nd death in the Bible,
essentially he would go to hell.

But then, consider the words of Christ to the thief right before his death?

I kid you not, TODAY you will be with me in paradise." ([paraphrased])

doesn't sound like Christ was on his way to hell.

She probably has some special faculty which allows her to communicate with God--

if she keeps it up, she might be transported to heaven for visions like the Hinn... that would be something!

Whatever happened to 'proof by potency'?

what is that?

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

It's where belief in a thing is proved true by the consequences yielded in believing it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

It's where belief in a thing is proved true by the consequences yielded in believing it.

I'm feeling a little thick. Meaning what exactly?

 

[SonOfSophroniscus]

That the truth of God's existence can be accessed through the consequences [often personal] which are brought about by believing in Him.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I understand. Thanks for clarifying, not all of my synapsis are firing today!

 

[Musician4Jesus]

Yeah, but the thief didn't die on the cross to appease the wrath of God now did he? Not all of Scripture is supposed to be taken literally. When Jesus said the thief would be in heaven with him, he meant that when he went to heaven (the thief) Jesus would be in heaven with him.


If Jesus hadn't been in the grave for three days prior to his resurrection on the third day, then naturally he would just be God if he did that.

However Jesus was fully God and fully human; both while he was on earth and when he died; Jesus dying on earth didn't change his nature. Jesus wanted to prove that him being dead, only God could resurrect him (raise him from the DEAD). That the reason he was risen from the dead was by the power of God.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yeah, but the thief didn't die on the cross to appease the wrath of God now did he? Not all of Scripture is supposed to be taken literally. When Jesus said the thief would be in heaven with him, he meant that when he went to heaven (the thief) Jesus would be in heaven with him.

no, and I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Jesus died to pay for our sins. The thief died for his own crimes. I can think of no allegorical reason that Jesus would say "today you will be with me in heaven" if it wasn't going to be so. Christ didn't lie. and, technically, if Jesus were in hell for three days, he could not have been in heaven with the thief, TODAY. (also, I might question how you decide what is literal, and what is not, and exactly what reasoning you would have to point to a meaning other than that expressed by Jesus.)

If Jesus hadn't been in the grave for three days prior to his resurrection on the third day, then naturally he would just be God if he did that.

yes. In the grave. His body was in the Grave. So then, if you are presenting the if here not there kind of argument, he could not be in hell either, could he? His body was in the grave. He was (non-corpereally) either in heaven or hell, and given what he told the thief, I find no reason to believe it was hell.

However Jesus was fully God and fully human; both while he was on earth and when he died; Jesus dying on earth didn't change his nature. Jesus wanted to prove that him being dead, only God could resurrect him (raise him from the DEAD). That the reason he was risen from the dead was by the power of God.

sure. And I don't see what that has to do with Jesus going to hell either.

 

[Fireinfolding]

1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The words "To Day" on the cross are connected to the Holy Spirit declaring that which was finished from Yesterday (wherein He came ONCE to bear sin) but I dont believe its talking of a literal 24 hours given its said on this wise, "To day if you hear his voice" is said prophetically over and over again and mostly in regards to the dead "hearing his voice"

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day,after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

Again...

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Again

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Wake O sleeper and rise from the dead is spoken to living folks, its Jesus that said the time is coming and now is that the dead would hear and live.

Theres three days (prophetically speaking) and declared by the Holy Spirit wherein Jesus remains the same, "Yesterday", "To Day", and "For ever". All three are reigns and two are shown as a thousand years. Look it up these are kool.

Though I heard some use "To Day" (you shall be with me in paradise) thing to prove soul sleep after physical death over those who sleep (and abide in death) as John shows and are dead while they physically live.

Though it is shown that the death of the body (to be caught up to paradise) even as Paul speaks of it, didnt require the death of the body. In the body or out of it he could not tell but the death of it wasnt required.

I'll just sit back and read lol

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[JayJay77]

When I read what Joyce Meyer said, it seemed to me like she said that not believing Jesus died on the cross was punishable, not necessarily the unbelief in Him going to hell.

If she did (or does) mean the latter, then her doctrine (according to scripture) is off. And, wasn't all of our doctrine off a little at one time or another?

 

[LJSGM]

paradise from the strong's

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven

Some believe what Jesus meant was "today you will be with me in the ground (garden)" meaning that the man was actually mocking Jesus, and this was Jesus' reply. For scriptures do say that Jesus had NO comforters. What do you all think of this?

 

[Uphill Battle]

paradise from the strong's

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven

Some believe what Jesus meant was "today you will be with me in the ground (garden)" meaning that the man was actually mocking Jesus, and this was Jesus' reply. For scriptures do say that Jesus had NO comforters. What do you all think of this?

I don't really see the thief as a comforter. More of a supplicant.