One Jesus, two testimonies?

[Floatingaxe]

Dear Olliefranz
This comes from a few pages back
No I speak for millions though, which is what I said. I am just pointing out to you that millions would see you as not believing the Bible with your gay affirming ideas. Remember it was you who implied I was speaking for myself, I am just clarifying that millions of us agree the same as me.

Amen, yes! Millions! The triumphant Church of Jesus Christ!

 

[Phinehas2]

Having looked at the last 8 or so pages it seems to me that this thread has two different camps. One camp is arguing that there are two different worldviews here based on the scriptures and the other camp which basically doesnt believe the scriptures is arguing its the same worldview.
I have to say if the gay affirmers dont believe what the scripture says they wont be able to see that there are two different worldviews.
This whole argument is about an absolute belief in the Bible as a reliable testimony of God's revelation against, other peoples individual ideas which they offer up against this.
The debate isnt really about gay at all, but a battle for the truth of the historic apostlic faith once delivered. It occurs to me that if gay affirmers wish to have same-sex unions then that up to them and we only want to warn them not stop them, but the issue here is that the gay affirmers want same-sex unions inlcuded in the historic apostolic Christian faith. Its not ours for changing!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Having looked at the last 8 or so pages it seems to me that this thread has two different camps. One camp is arguing that there are two different worldviews here based on the scriptures and the other camp which basically doesnt believe the scriptures is arguing its the same worldview.
I have to say if the gay affirmers dont believe what the scripture says they wont be able to see that there are two different worldviews.
This whole argument is about an absolute belief in the Bible as a reliable testimony of God's revelation against, other peoples individual ideas which they offer up against this.
The debate isnt really about gay at all, but a battle for the truth of the historic apostlic faith once delivered. It occurs to me that if gay affirmers wish to have same-sex unions then that up to them and we only want to warn them not stop them, but the issue here is that the gay affirmers want same-sex unions inlcuded in the historic apostolic Christian faith. Its not ours for changing!

And another thing:

These homosexuals who call themselves Christians couldn't care less for the lost! There are posters truly openly antagonistic to the gospel message and to the Word of God, and yet not one homosexual promoter has said one thing to offer salvation.

All they are concerned with is the here and now, and their agenda, their god. The Great Commission falls by the wayside. It is sickening to me.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Floatingaxe,
Yes! And in addition as the gay affirmers are promoting a sin which we are saved from they are undermining the gospel of salvation.

These homosexuals who call themselves Christians

Yes, but there are Christians who have same-sex attraction who believe the Bible that same-sex sex is sin, so we must have homosexuals who are Christians and homosexuals who call themsleves Christians but who dont believe the Bible.

 

[MercyBurst]

Having looked at the last 8 or so pages it seems to me that this thread has two different camps. One camp is arguing that there are two different worldviews here based on the scriptures and the other camp which basically doesnt believe the scriptures is arguing its the same worldview.
I have to say if the gay affirmers dont believe what the scripture says they wont be able to see that there are two different worldviews.
This whole argument is about an absolute belief in the Bible as a reliable testimony of God's revelation against, other peoples individual ideas which they offer up against this.
The debate isnt really about gay at all, but a battle for the truth of the historic apostlic faith once delivered. It occurs to me that if gay affirmers wish to have same-sex unions then that up to them and we only want to warn them not stop them, but the issue here is that the gay affirmers want same-sex unions inlcuded in the historic apostolic Christian faith. Its not ours for changing!

You are right. This is spiritual warfare, and it needs to be fought at that level. It isn't really about gay-sex at all. It's about the Holy Spirit that ALL His believers have. The Holy Spirit can not be at war with itslef, even as Jesus said.

This fact alone proves that one camp is from Satan.

 

[Ohioprof]

Having looked at the last 8 or so pages it seems to me that this thread has two different camps. One camp is arguing that there are two different worldviews here based on the scriptures and the other camp which basically doesnt believe the scriptures is arguing its the same worldview.
I have to say if the gay affirmers dont believe what the scripture says they wont be able to see that there are two different worldviews.
This whole argument is about an absolute belief in the Bible as a reliable testimony of God's revelation against, other peoples individual ideas which they offer up against this.
The debate isnt really about gay at all, but a battle for the truth of the historic apostlic faith once delivered. It occurs to me that if gay affirmers wish to have same-sex unions then that up to them and we only want to warn them not stop them, but the issue here is that the gay affirmers want same-sex unions inlcuded in the historic apostolic Christian faith. Its not ours for changing!

Speaking for myself, I really do not care whether churches choose to perform or to recognize same-sex marriages or not. That's entirely up to them; churches have the right to marry or not marry whomever they wish, because we have religious freedom. My church does perform same-sex marriages, and I am very glad for this.

I do think that gay couples should have the right to civil marriages or unions, recognized by the state. That's different from expecting a marriage or union to be performed by or recognized by a particular church.

My central argument in these forums is that Christians should stand up for fair and equal treatment for gay people, and that Christians should not denigrate gay people or tell gay people that our love relationships are "sin." Just as most Christians do not go around hounding divorced people for what some Christians regard as the "sin" of divorce, I think that Christians should not be hounding gay people, or pointing fingers at gay people, for what some Christians regard as the "sin" of "homosexuality."

Instead, I think Christians should speak out against the actions of those who threaten gay people, harass gay people, and blame gay people for the ills of society. I am heartened to see how many Christians here denounce Reverend Fred Phelps for his denigration of innocent gay people and for his disrespect for those who have died in the war, whatever their sexual orientation.

 

[Ohioprof]

You are right. This is spiritual warfare, and it needs to be fought at that level. It isn't really about gay-sex at all. It's about the Holy Spirit that ALL His believers have. The Holy Spirit can not be at war with itslef, even as Jesus said.

This fact alone proves that one camp is from Satan.

You may regard yourself as at war. I am not at war with anyone. I am living my life the best I can, trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, seeking to learn, trying to contribute to society, and speaking my understanding of truth, knowing that all human knowledge is partial, including mine. I am not in a war, and I am not going to participate in any war. I just speak the truth as I understand it, and I listen to what other people say.

 

[MercyBurst]

You may regard yourself as at war. I am not at war with anyone. I am living my life the best I can, trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, seeking to learn, trying to contribute to society, and speaking my understanding of truth, knowing that all human knowledge is partial, including mine. I am not in a war, and I am not going to participate in any war. I just speak the truth as I understand it, and I listen to what other people say.

I'm here to talk about the Holy Spirit and the apostolic commission. The Holy Spirit can not witness against itself as you are doing with "gay Christianity". We can not have to two opposite camps of believers with the Holy Spirit denying itself. There is only one Holy Spirit.

We can not have a Holy Spirit that brings death to any believer in Christ, and ex-gays are the witness.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Speaking for myself, I really do not care whether churches choose to perform or to recognize same-sex marriages or not. That's entirely up to them; churches have the right to marry or not marry whomever they wish, because we have religious freedom. My church does perform same-sex marriages, and I am very glad for this.

Ok I agree you are speaking for yourself and that’s what those chuches are doing as well, what we are saying is quoting God’s word in the Bible those churches are not doing what God has ordained.

I do think that gay couples should have the right to civil marriages or unions, recognized by the state.

Ok that’s fair enough for gay couples if as I keep saying you mean same-sex couples when you say ‘gay’ The dictionary definition of ‘gay’ is same-sex attraction which means a gay couple could be a homosexual man and a lesbian woman.

My central argument in these forums is that Christians should stand up for fair and equal treatment for gay people, and that Christians should not denigrate gay people or tell gay people that our love relationships are "sin."

Your remarks don’t make sense. Love isn’t sex, gay people having same-sex attraction can still love people of the same sex just as I as a heterosexual can love people of the opposite sex without having sex with them even when I find them sexually attractive.

Instead, I think Christians should speak out against the actions of those who threaten gay people, harass gay people, and blame gay people for the ills of society.

Well yes I agree, as with everyone, that’s part of Jesus Christ’s teaching.

I am heartened to see how many Christians here denounce Reverend Fred Phelps for his denigration of innocent gay people and for his disrespect for those who have died in the war, whatever their sexual orientation.

Yes and I am heartened to see some here denounce Gene Robinson for also missing the heart of the gospel of love and similarly letting sex determine things instead of love.

 

[Ohioprof]

And another thing:

These homosexuals who call themselves Christians couldn't care less for the lost! There are posters truly openly antagonistic to the gospel message and to the Word of God, and yet not one homosexual promoter has said one thing to offer salvation.

All they are concerned with is the here and now, and their agenda, their god. The Great Commission falls by the wayside. It is sickening to me.

I promote respect for the inherent worth and dignity of all people, including gay people like myself. There are no "lost," according to my beliefs, because all are saved. We do live on this earth....that is what we have. To sacrifice one's life for an imagined reward in heaven would be unfortunate, I think.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ok I agree you are speaking for yourself and that’s what those chuches are doing as well, what we are saying is quoting God’s word in the Bible those churches are not doing what God has ordained.

Ok that’s fair enough for gay couples if as I keep saying you mean same-sex couples when you say ‘gay’ The dictionary definition of ‘gay’ is same-sex attraction which means a gay couple could be a homosexual man and a lesbian woman.

Your remarks don’t make sense. Love isn’t sex, gay people having same-sex attraction can still love people of the same sex just as I as a heterosexual can love people of the opposite sex without having sex with them even when I find them sexually attractive.

Well yes I agree, as with everyone, that’s part of Jesus Christ’s teaching.

Yes and I am heartened to see some here denounce Gene Robinson for also missing the heart of the gospel of love and similarly letting sex determine things instead of love.

I think people should not denounce Gene Robinson. He is living his faith as best he can, serving God and his church and other people. He is an example, I think, of a fine Christian. You are free to disagree, and he is a leader in your church, not mine. So you can certainly denounce him if you wish, but I think doing so is a mistake. There is too much good work for Christians to do together to spend time denouncing a fine church leader just because he happens to be gay.

A gay couple could, in theory, be a gay man and a lesbian woman, and occasionally gay men do marry lesbians to avoid discrimination or to provide cover for who they are or simply for the benefits that accompany marriage, such as health insurance. These are pretty unusual marriages, but if it helps to clarify things, I will refer to same-sex marriages rather than gay marriages.

Btw, I knew a married couple who were a lesbian and a heterosexal man. They were legally married, but they did not have sex. They both had decided that they would be celibate, not out of religious conviction, but because they both had health problems, and neither one had any desire for sex. They married in order for the woman to get health insurance benefits through the man's work insurance. They were good friends who took care of each other. The woman died about a year and a half ago, because of her serious health problems, alas. I miss our enjoyable conversations. They both hated President Bush with much passion, and they hired a friend to protest at the Bush inaugural on their behalf, because they were too ill to go. So they hired a substitute, much like some people of means hired substitutes to fight for them in the Civil War.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear ohioprof,
Then that is another example of why your beliefs arent Christian, the Biblical testimony of Jesus, which you have said you dont believe, is quite clear that He came to save the lost and salvation is through Him.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear ohioprof,

I disagree. I think people should not denounce Gene Robinson. He is living his faith as best he can, serving God and his church and other people.

So is Fred Phelps living his faith as best he can, but both have misguided views of love and sex.

He is an example, I think, of a fine Christian.

Many would say he is not an example of a Christian at all, and some would say Fred Phelps is a fine example of a Christian. My point is that whilst I believe both are misguided on the issue of love and sex, you seem to be as misguided as one of them. What we need to discuss is the reason why.

 

[MercyBurst]

I will dedicate my posts to prove that "gay Christianity" is incompatible with the body of Christ, and hence this demonic teaching should be cast out of the church body.

I call my first witnesses from Brothers Keepers to tell us what the evil gay-spirit did to them, and what the Holy Spirit has done to restore their spiritual walk:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brothers-Keepers/

Description

A Christian discussion and interactive support group for men who struggle against same-gender attraction.

We believe that while sexual tendencies may not be something chosen, we are morally responsible for our sexual behavior.

This group is for those people who hold in common the belief that homosexual behavior is sin. We seek the guidance of scripture, God's Holy Spirit, and the fellowship and brotherly love of each other.

We celebrate new life and identity available to us through Jesus Christ, our Savior who exchanges His righteousness for our fallen nature as we put our faith in Him. This group has no program or step teachings.

It is simply a group of men who share from their personal experience. We are called ex-gay or exgay although some were never involved in a gay lifestyle. Some members have maintained their sexual purity throughout their struggle but still deal mentally with unwanted attractions.

Other members were active in the homosexual lifestyle, carrying with them the memories of those experiences, but now choose to turn away from homosexuality for the sake of their own spiritual health.

The focus of the group is mutual support in a walk with Christ in a quest for freedom. Members are encouraged to post and respond to the posts of others, building meaningful relationships and interaction.

This group consists of about half married and half single members. Because of the personal nature of the discussions and the need for mutual trust, membership in the group requires involvement by all. Lurking is discouraged. This group will only be as useful and productive as you make it with your participation.

I think this debate is over already. These are my Christian Brothers and they witness that they can not follow their same-sex attraction and the Lord Jesus Christ. They say it injures their spirituall health. There is no way the evil "gay spirit" can come from God. NO WAY.

Is any more witness needed?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear ohioprof,
Then that is another example of why your beliefs arent Christian, the Biblical testimony of Jesus, which you have said you dont believe, is quite clear that He came to save the lost and salvation is through Him.

I simply do not believe that. I am, as I have said, a Universalist Christian. I do not believe that Jesus ever said that salvation is through him. That's a statement attributed to Jesus in the Bible that is probably not something he said.

It's principally the Gospel of John that attributes variouos "I" statements to Jesus. The three synoptic Gospels mostly do not attribute such statements to Jesus. According to the Jesus Seminar and other Bible scholars, Jesus probably did not make statements about himself as the Messiah or the way to salvation. Much of what is attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John was invented by a particular group of followers of Jesus.

Anyhow, my Christian beliefs are different from yours, but they are Christian beliefs.

 

[Ohioprof]

I will dedicate my posts to prove that "gay Christianity" is incompatible with the body of Christ, and hence this demonic teaching should be cast out of the church body.

I call my first witnesses from Brothers Keepers to tell us what the evil gay-spirit did to them, and what the Holy Spirit has done to restore their spiritual walk:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brothers-Keepers/

Description

I think this debate is over already. These are my Christian Brothers and they witness that they can not follow their same-sex attraction and the Lord Jesus Christ. They say it injures their spirituall health. There is no way the evil "gay spirit" can come from God. NO WAY.

Is any more witness needed?

My witness in my life is contrary to that. There is no "evil" gay spirit. There are just gay people, people who are no more or less sinners than anyone else. Being gay in itself is not a sin; it's simply how God made some people.

You appear not to want to listen to ideas that contradict what you already believe, and that's up to you. I will, however, continue to speak the truth as I understand it, whether you agree with me or not. My personal witness matters, whether you think it does or not.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear ohioprof,
So is Fred Phelps living his faith as best he can, but both have misguided views of love and sex.
Many would say he is not an example of a Christian at all, and some would say Fred Phelps is a fine example of a Christian. My point is that whilst I believe both are misguided on the issue of love and sex, you seem to be as misguided as one of them. What we need to discuss is the reason why.

I am not "misguided." I do not advocate harm to anyone. I believe in loving my neighbor, which is what Jesus called for. That includes loving my gay neighbor.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

... Being gay in itself is not a sin;

I agree [/quote] it's simply how God made some people.[/quote] No I disagree, God didnt make Adam and Eve sinners, humans became sinners through choice.

 

[Ohioprof]

I'm here to talk about the Holy Spirit and the apostolic commission. The Holy Spirit can not witness against itself as you are doing with "gay Christianity". We can not have to two opposite camps of believers with the Holy Spirit denying itself. There is only one Holy Spirit.

We can not have a Holy Spirit that brings death to any believer in Christ, and ex-gays are the witness.

Sorry....this is not true. More than likely there are no "ex-gays." There are only people trying desperately to stop being gay by denying who they really are and repressing their sexual desires. If that works for them and makes them happy, then fine for them. But most gay people will never, and should never, embrace such self-hating beliefs. Most gay people will reject your particular interpretation of Christianity, because it denies who we gay people really are. Your particular interpretation of Christianity makes life impossible for gay people, and I think gay people will continue to reject it in favor of Christian understandings that embrace all people, including gay people.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
I agree

it's simply how God made some people.[/quote] No I disagree, God didnt make Adam and Eve sinners, humans became sinners through choice.[/QUOTE]
Adam and Eve did not exist. That's a story only.

I do believe that people choose to sin. Being gay is not a sin.