The Flood

[dukeofhazzard]

"The Big Brain am winning again! I am the greetest! Ha-ha-ha-ha. Now I am leaving Earth for no raisin!"

"Nibbler -And so life returned to normal, or as normal as it gets on this primitive dirtball inhabited by psychotic apes."

I wouldn't if I was you. You'll only end up with an extremely large headache trying to figure out which timeline is which. I think both characters have fought against themselves at one time.

LOL! But I adore time travel!!

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Get a room, you two.

 

[AV1611VET]

So a "kind" is an animal at the top of "God's taxon", but you have no idea what God's taxon is. Is that it?

That is correct --- I also don't know what all is on man's taxon, either.

But as I have said before, we do have some entries that are on God's taxon.

 

[thaumaturgy]

If the FLOOD was indeed tranquil, then it could not be the cause of the geological issues. This is when the problems began. It had nothing to do with real research. It was all logic and opinion. Geologists then when in another direction and the FLOOD was forgotten...

Again, here we go:

Here is the Hjulstrom Diagram:

Let's talke "tranquil". CLAY sized particles are very very small. They make up the biggest portion of SHALE.

Please explain to me how a turbulent global flood could be responsible for something like this:

The Hermit Shale in the Grand Canyon.

Explain the iron oxide staining too.

See, you leave it so open that we can't even begin to analyze what you are thinking on this one. Please do us a favor and point to which specific layers are the Flood deposit.

You see, Nipper, we have hundreds and thousands and maybe millions of marine shales all over the world to chose from. Tell us which one it is!

If it's not a marine shale, then is it a TURBIDITE sequence? Which one of the numerous ones in the geologic column?

Please, tell us WHICH ONE IN PARTICULAR!

Do you know how sediments are laid down? Do you know how they are eroded, transported?

Am I providing you with anything to think about? Or is it more important to pray to God no geologist will ever hear what you say?

Please, I am begging you, give us a bone here!

 

[Split Rock]

Sounds like GOD's voice had the destructive power of an asteroid blast...

LOL! So now you have taken a reference to thunder being God's voice to an earthquake to an asteroid collision!

What will "Bible Literalists" think up next?

 

[Split Rock]

They (some) discarded the FLOOD THEORY because they first accepted the TRANQUIL FLOOD THEORY as proposed by Carolus Linnaeus in the late 18th century. A Scottish minister, John Fleming, promoted it to the British public in 1826.

If the FLOOD was indeed tranquil, then it could not be the cause of the geological issues. This is when the problems began. It had nothing to do with real research. It was all logic and opinion. Geologists then when in another direction and the FLOOD was forgotten...

Many other Christian geologists began to promote this idea as well. It was the only way to allow the bible version of events to match up with the reality of the rocks. It was indeed based on research, however. It was only proposed after these geologists looked at the evidence, which falsified Flood geology. Stop trying to rewrite history!

 

[Split Rock]

And I respectfully disagree. Other cultures didn't linguistically come about until after the Babel incident, which means that from Genesis 9 to Genesis 11, a period of some 100 years, these other cultures, small as they would be, had the Scriptures.

Here is a fine example of how Creationism is not only anathema to Biology, Geology and Cosmology, but to other areas of science having little to do with evolution or the age of the earth and universe, such as linguistics. All of reality, it seems, is wrong because the Bible literalists claim their book says so.

 

[LittleNipper]

Again, here we go:

Here is the Hjulstrom Diagram:

Let's talke "tranquil". CLAY sized particles are very very small. They make up the biggest portion of SHALE.

Please explain to me how a turbulent global flood could be responsible for something like this:

The Hermit Shale in the Grand Canyon.

Explain the iron oxide staining too.

See, you leave it so open that we can't even begin to analyze what you are thinking on this one. Please do us a favor and point to which specific layers are the Flood deposit.

You see, Nipper, we have hundreds and thousands and maybe millions of marine shales all over the world to chose from. Tell us which one it is!

If it's not a marine shale, then is it a TURBIDITE sequence? Which one of the numerous ones in the geologic column?

Please, tell us WHICH ONE IN PARTICULAR!

Do you know how sediments are laid down? Do you know how they are eroded, transported?

Am I providing you with anything to think about? Or is it more important to pray to God no geologist will ever hear what you say?

Please, I am begging you, give us a bone here!

Well, come now ---- let's be reasonable. I can easily imagine that during the FLOOD there would be stages of both turbulence and relative tranquility. I would say to you that GOD likely kept Noah'a ark out of harms way by socking it other distant areas of the earth. I feel that like the Grand Canyon developed as a result of both the FLOOD, possible rather swift dranage, and thousands of years of erosion. Could the site also have been a target of a meteor or an asteroid at the start of the FLOOD? GOD only knows. What the area looked like before the FLOOD, GOD again only knows . All the rest is speculation based on value judgments of what data is presently available. Could ther have been a terrific earthquake in the area just before, during, and for centuries after the FLOOD.... Again, we may speculate, but the truth may simply have to wait until we meet GOD face to face.

 

[Baggins]

Well, come now ---- let's be reasonable. I can easily imagine that during the FLOOD there would be stages of both turbulence and relative tranquility. I would say to you that GOD likely kept Noah'a ark out of harms way by socking it other distant areas of the earth. I feel that like the Grand Canyon developed as a result of both the FLOOD, possible rather swift dranage, and thousands of years of erosion. Could the site also have been a target of a meteor or an asteroid at the start of the FLOOD? GOD only knows. What the area looked like before the FLOOD, GOD again only knows . All the rest is speculation based on value judgments of what data is presently available. Could ther have been a terrific earthquake in the area just before, during, and for centuries after the FLOOD.... Again, we may speculate, but the truth may simply have to wait until we meet GOD face to face.

While you sit there pontificating on things about which you know nothing; some of us are out in the real world using an old earth, uniformitarian model to find the hydrocarbons you need to fuel your sorry existence.

In nasty conditions sometimes, like the South Atlantic where I am going next.

The things I do for creationists.

 

[Split Rock]

Well, come now ---- let's be reasonable. I can easily imagine that during the FLOOD there would be stages of both turbulence and relative tranquility. I would say to you that GOD likely kept Noah'a ark out of harms way by socking it other distant areas of the earth. I feel that like the Grand Canyon developed as a result of both the FLOOD, possible rather swift dranage, and thousands of years of erosion. Could the site also have been a target of a meteor or an asteroid at the start of the FLOOD? GOD only knows. What the area looked like before the FLOOD, GOD again only knows . All the rest is speculation based on value judgments of what data is presently available. Could ther have been a terrific earthquake in the area just before, during, and for centuries after the FLOOD.... Again, we may speculate, but the truth may simply have to wait until we meet GOD face to face.

I can imagine all sorts of thing, LN. I can imagine that a huge dragon swooped over the Grand Canyon and burn it out with his fiery breathe! Or maybe a race of dwarves carved the canyon out with little pickaxes, and left no evidence of their existence!

But where is the evidence to support your musings??

 

[Loudmouth]

Well, come now ---- let's be reasonable. I can easily imagine that during the FLOOD there would be stages of both turbulence and relative tranquility.

Don't forget about deserts for eolian deposits, salt beds, and dessication cracks.

I feel that like the Grand Canyon developed as a result of both the FLOOD, possible rather swift dranage, and thousands of years of erosion.

Swift drainage would produce parallel, straight, and braided channels. The Grand Canyon and it's tributaries form single channels that meander. Swift drainage can not produce the features seen in the GC.

Could the site also have been a target of a meteor or an asteroid at the start of the FLOOD? GOD only knows.

And Santa is the only one who knows if you have been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. I can make up stuff, too.

All the rest is speculation based on value judgments of what data is presently available.

It's based on observation, not speculation. The features in the grand canyon can be seen forming in today's world.

Could ther have been a terrific earthquake in the area just before, during, and for centuries after the FLOOD.... Again, we may speculate, but the truth may simply have to wait until we meet GOD face to face.

Evidence would help.

 

[TheBear]

Wrong.

It's, "The FLOOD!".

 

[TheOutsider]

Wrong.

It's, "The FLOOD!".

I thought that it was Ye Olde Flude.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Well, come now ---- let's be reasonable. I can easily imagine that during the FLOOD there would be stages of both turbulence and relative tranquility.

You do realize it takes a long time of calm water to deposit out a clay size particle, right? I worked in a clay mineralogy lab and I got to see folks who were settling out clays to run x-ray diffraction studies on them. They did it by setting up big tall beakers of water and stirring up the clay and then leaving it for DAYS to settle out on a glass plate at the bottom.

This can be modelled using Stoke's Law:

Note the little r^2. That's the "radius of a spherical particle". Clays aren't spherical so Stoke's law is only an approximation for this setting rate. But you can see that V (the settling velocity) is directly proportional to the size of the particle. Big particles settle fast, small settle slow.

Now, settle out 270 to 320 feet of clay, compact it and lithify it with enough time left over in a year to develop a desert on top of it (as represented by the Coconino Sandstone) followed by MORE flooding to develop hundreds of feet of marine limestone above that.

Please, the important part isn't that you can type words like "turbulent" but rather that you appreciate the significant amount of detail avialable in rocks.

You are missing everything in this. Sure you can come up with various "guesses", but they invariably fall apart when you look at the REAL ROCKS.

I would say to you that GOD likely kept Noah'a ark out of harms way by socking it other distant areas

And see, that simply isn't good enough. You are guessing what you think God would "likely" do. That's just your guess based on your ignorance of the entire data set.

You aren't doing science, you are simply "guessing" and making up "Just So" stories.

Take some time, learn the geology.

Imagine if someone who had never read the bible debated you on bible topics. And what if they defended their stance by "making stories up about what probably happened" without ever even coming close to understanding what the bible says.

Could the site also have been a target of a meteor or an asteroid at the start of the FLOOD? GOD only knows.

No, you're wrong there. Meteorite and asteroid impacts show up in the rock record. We can find things like shocked quartz grains and other structures and large-scale damage features that indicate impact structures.

So, God wouldnt' be the only one to know. You likely wouldn't know because you are unfamiliar with how geologists see the rocks. If you were to get educated on the topic you'd see it isn't all just "mushy guesses in the dark".

All the rest is speculation based on value judgments of what data is presently available.

But, Nipper, the key is that you clearly don't even know what data is presently available yet you seem comfortable complaining about the interpretation.

How does that work? Do you feel slightly bad about that?

 

[AV1611VET]

All of reality, it seems, is wrong because the Bible literalists claim their book says so.

Only insofar as it contradicts the Scriptures --- that's all.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Only insofar as it contradicts the Scriptures --- that's all.

Why are you so certain that it's not your interperetation of scripture that's wrong? Are you a geocentrist? If not, then you've modified an ancient interperetation of scripture in light of scientific discovery.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why are you so certain that it's not your interperetation of scripture that's wrong? Are you a geocentrist? If not, then you've modified an ancient interperetation of scripture in light of scientific discovery.

Give me one verse that supports geocentricity --- just one.

You do realize that scientists taught geocentricity at one time, don't you?

Like Ptolemy.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Give me one verse that supports geocentricity --- just one.

1 Chronicles 16:30​

tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.​

Psalms 93:1​

The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.​

Psalms 96:10​

Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity."​

Those verses deal with the earth being a fixed non-moving entity (one aspect of geocentrism)

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

I realize that we can look at that verse and say, "well, He doesn't literally *mean* that the sun moves" however that is an interperetation of the data filtered through modern scientific discovery (well, modern as compared to the Bible ).

You do realize that scientists taught geocentricity at one time, don't you?

Like Ptolemy.

I'm aware of that. Scientists aren't infallible, they're people -- absolutely capable of making mistakes. Also capable of updating and reviewing theories when they're proven false.

 

[AV1611VET]

I realize that we can look at that verse and say, "well, He doesn't literally *mean* that the sun moves" however that is an interperetation of the data filtered through modern scientific discovery (well, modern as compared to the Bible ).

Let's take the Joshua passage, then I have a simple question for you:

[bible]Joshua 10:12-13[/bible]

If you looked up into the sky today, and the sun and the moon weren't moving, wouldn't you conclude that it was the earth that stood still?

(I would.)

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Let's take the Joshua passage, then I have a simple question for you:

[bible]Joshua 10:12-13[/bible]

If you looked up into the sky today, and the sun and the moon weren't moving, wouldn't you conclude that it was the earth that stood still?

(I would.)

.... I sense a trick question, but yes, I would conclude that it was the earth that was standing still if I witnessed the Sun and Moon not moving for an entire day. I would conclude this because modern science tells us that the earth revolves around the sun.