The Flood

[AV1611VET]

.... I sense a trick question, but yes, I would conclude that it was the earth that was standing still if I witnessed the Sun and Moon not moving for an entire day. I would conclude this because modern science tells us that the earth revolves around the sun.

Okay, now let me ask the same question, switching the synonyms:

• If you looked up into the sky today, and the sun and the moon stood still, wouldn't you conclude that it was the earth that wasn't moving?

(I would.)

 

[Vene]

Let's take the Joshua passage, then I have a simple question for you:

[bible]Joshua 10:12-13[/bible]

If you looked up into the sky today, and the sun and the moon weren't moving, wouldn't you conclude that it was the earth that stood still?

(I would.)

Sure, without any other data, but the Bible is the word of the great Jehovah. Are you suggesting that it was written by men thousands of years ago? If so, maybe those men exaggerated other aspects, like making a nasty flood in their village into global flood. And not having any concept of genetics and cosmology so they made up their creation myth.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Okay, now let me ask the same question, changing the synonyms:

• If you looked up into the sky today, and the sun and the moon stood still, wouldn't you conclude that it was the earth that wasn't moving?

(I would.)

... in light of modern scientific information, yes.

 

[AV1611VET]

If so, maybe those men exaggerated other aspects, like making a nasty flood in their village into global flood. And not having any concept of genetics and cosmology so they made up their creation myth.

Ya --- I heard that rumor.

 

[Phred]

Let's take the Joshua passage, then I have a simple question for you:

[bible]Joshua 10:12-13[/bible]

If you looked up into the sky today, and the sun and the moon weren't moving, wouldn't you conclude that it was the earth that stood still?

(I would.)

Only one small glitch there. You wouldn't be looking up and suddenly noticing the sun not moving. The stopping of the earth's rotation would generate forces that would, quite literally, send you and everything else not nailed down flying. In the violent cataclysms of tidal waves thousands of feet high flinging themselves up on the west coasts of every body of water... you'd conclude that some force had pushed you and everything else to the east. Just before a large rock or building or something smashed you flat. Then the water returning to the west would slosh up and the reverse tidal waves would begin. The sun not traversing the sky would be the least of your worries.

 

[AV1611VET]

... in light of modern scientific information, yes.

Then I rest my case --- there is nothing unscientific about what Joshua said.

(And reps for honesty.)

 

[Phred]

Then I rest my case --- there is nothing unscientific about what Joshua said.

(And reps for honesty.)

Except for everything he said.

 

[AV1611VET]

Only one small glitch there. You wouldn't be looking up and suddenly noticing the sun not moving. The stopping of the earth's rotation would generate forces that would, quite literally, send you and everything else not nailed down flying. In the violent cataclysms of tidal waves thousands of feet high flinging themselves up on the west coasts of every body of water... you'd conclude that some force had pushed you and everything else to the east. Just before a large rock or building or something smashed you flat. Then the water returning to the west would slosh up and the reverse tidal waves would begin. The sun not traversing the sky would be the least of your worries.

Yes --- I'm familiar with the ramifications.

(Although, I'll admit, I overlooked the reverse tidal wave!)

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Then I rest my case --- there is nothing unscientific about what Joshua said.

(And reps for honesty.)

Thank you for the reps .

However I'd like to point out that I never said what Joshua said was unscientific (that's an entirely different argument, one that Phred seems to be addressing right now). It was the science of the day.

My argument was that you're taking what Joshua said, his literal words, and saying that in light of modern scientific discovery you "interperet" them differently than earlier readers would have. Aren't you?

 

[AV1611VET]

Except for everything he said.

No --- what's confusing you guys is that God addressed the sun and the moon in that passage, but the earth is the one that responded.

[bible]Joshua 10:12-13[/bible]

 

[dukeofhazzard]

Only one small glitch there. You wouldn't be looking up and suddenly noticing the sun not moving. The stopping of the earth's rotation would generate forces that would, quite literally, send you and everything else not nailed down flying. In the violent cataclysms of tidal waves thousands of feet high flinging themselves up on the west coasts of every body of water... you'd conclude that some force had pushed you and everything else to the east. Just before a large rock or building or something smashed you flat. Then the water returning to the west would slosh up and the reverse tidal waves would begin. The sun not traversing the sky would be the least of your worries.

lol, I wasn't touching that for the time being, I'm trying to focus on "literal" interperetations changing.

 

[AV1611VET]

My argument was that you're taking what Joshua said, his literal words, and saying that in light of modern scientific discovery you "interperet" them differently than earlier readers would have. Aren't you?

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment.

 

[dukeofhazzard]

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment.

So when you said:

Only insofar as it contradicts the Scriptures --- that's all.

You meant "only insofar as it contradicts *your interperetation* of the scriptures". Would that be correct? Because before when we *knew* that the sun revolved around the earth, heliocentric science would have contradicted scripture. Would you have thrown the heliocentric model out had you lived back then?

 

[AV1611VET]

So when you said:



You meant "only insofar as it contradicts *your interperetation* of the scriptures". Would that be correct? Because before when we *knew* that the sun revolved around the earth, heliocentric science would have contradicted scripture. Would you have thrown the heliocentric model out had you lived back then?

I don't really know what they though back then. If anyone back then thought geocentrism, it wouldn't have been because the Sun and moon are standing still, it would have been because the Sun and moon are moving.

Surely, you're not suggesting that before the Battle of Ajalon Valley, they thought heliocentrism --- then after the battle, they thought geocentrism?

 

[dukeofhazzard]

I don't really know what they though back then. If anyone back then thought geocentrism, it wouldn't have been because the Sun and moon are standing still, it would have been because the Sun and moon are moving.

You're either missing the point or deliberately ignoring it .

Surely, you're not suggesting that before the Battle of Ajalon Valley, they thought heliocentrism --- then after the battle, they thought geocentrism?

I'm suggesting no such thing. What I'm *suggesting* is that maybe the literality of the Bible is open to interperetation.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I don't really know what they though back then. If anyone back then thought geocentrism, it wouldn't have been because the Sun and moon are standing still, it would have been because the Sun and moon are moving.

Surely, you're not suggesting that before the Battle of Ajalon Valley, they thought heliocentrism --- then after the battle, they thought geocentrism?

Back then they all thought geocentrism just as the Bible plainly teaches. That is why there are still geocentrists such as Gerardus Bouw the "Biblical Astronomer" and his local follower Richard T still around.

Consider the words of Cardinal Robert Bellarmine.

Second. I say that, as you know, the Council [of Trent] prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe.

Now let's get back on topic. To me the belief that the flood of Noah was global is every bit as absurd as geocentricity and is actually easier to falsify scientifically.

 

[Vene]

Now let's get back on topic. To me the belief that the flood of Noah was global is every bit as absurd as geocentricity and is actually easier to falsify scientifically.

And it has been, too bad that some people say that the horse you (along with other posters) have been beating isn't dead yet.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

And it has been, too bad that some people say that the horse you (along with other posters) have been beating isn't dead yet.

Especially since its been dead for more than 150 years.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I don't really know what they though back then.

Wow. You'd think you did know, considering how you cleave so closely to the word of the Bible.

I mean, how could you not know what they thought? Didn't God spell it all out for you?

You are willing to toss in the dumpster the collected work of science when it disagrees with a jot or tittle of the Bible but now you don't know what they thought?

That doesn't sound right.

If anyone back then thought geocentrism, it wouldn't have been because the Sun and moon are standing still, it would have been because the Sun and moon are moving.

Surely, you're not suggesting that before the Battle of Ajalon Valley, they thought heliocentrism --- then after the battle, they thought geocentrism?

Seems pretty clear in Joshua 10:12-13 that indeed the sun and moon were stilled, which means they must have been moving with relation to the earth earlier.

I dunno, but it wouldn't be very miraculous unless they were geocentrists before, during and after Ajalon.

[BIBLE]Joshua 10:14[/BIBLE]

"And there was no day like that before it or after it"

If you don't know what they were thinking back then, then how do you know what they meant when it comes to the important stuff?

 

[LeeC]

The old "sun and moon not moving for 24 hours in the sky" trick!!!

You have to love it...