Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity?

[George the 3rd]

Mike

Our posts crossed, I see that my faith has been well founded. Thanks for making my day.

George

 

[Albion]

Welcome to the thread my brother! Please tell us, what led you out of Masonic Lodge, and why do you feel it is incompatible with Christianity?

I agree. We here have all reached our own conclusions--and for different reasons. Your own testimony, BroGinder, would be interesting and possibly valuable for us to read.

 

[HomeBound]

All anyone could say about the Masonic order is speculation and hear-say unless they've actually been through the many degrees. Let's not be parrots here.

But one thing I could say is that I believe Unity is one of the keys to Loving one another as Jesus made clear was a precept.

It seems to me that bringing yourself into a world of secrecy independent from the rest of the world is counter-productive to that precept.

 

[Albion]

All anyone could say about the Masonic order is speculation and hear-say unless they've actually been through the many degrees. Let's not be parrots here.

But one thing I could say is that I believe Unity is one of the keys to Loving one another as Jesus made clear was a precept.

It seems to me that bringing yourself into a world of secrecy independent from the rest of the world is counter-productive to that precept.

FWIW, I was all in accord with your thinking until I reached the final paragraph. From all that I've found out, Masonry is most likely to be criticised precisely because some think it builds or fosters TOO MUCH UNITY and fellowship, that it allows honorable men of all monotheistic faiths to fellowship together.

 

[Rev Wayne]

But one thing I could say is that I believe Unity is one of the keys to Loving one another as Jesus made clear was a precept.

It seems to me that bringing yourself into a world of secrecy independent from the rest of the world is counter-productive to that precept.

It doesn't seem to have been counter-productive to the early Christian movement when they were persecuted and hiding in the catacombs, recognizing each other by secret signs.

 

[HomeBound]

FWIW, I was all in accord with your thinking until I reached the final paragraph. From all that I've found out, Masonry is most likely to be criticised precisely because some think it builds or fosters TOO MUCH UNITY and fellowship, that it allows honorable men of all monotheistic faiths to fellowship together.

Yes, but unity ONLY within a particular class... Other Masons.

And REV, big difference. They were hiding to stay alive. Yet they shared their truth with the entire world.

 

[Rev Wayne]

And REV, big difference. They were hiding to stay alive.

Apparently you don't see the obvious parallel. During the formative years of Masonry, they were also in hiding, and were persecuted during the Inquisition by "Christians" who had forgotten their own history and held to a similar formula to that you seem to espouse, that "secret = evil," automatically.

 

[HomeBound]

So... Let their truths be made known to all now. That is, if there's nothing sinister to hide.

I never said secrecy=evil
I believe secrecy=deception which may be hiding evil. But I'll never know that for sure will I?

We are in a time now that many things are being revealed. And some who "claimed" to have been high level Masons, have come forward with "supposed" truths indicative of evil practices.

I don't know if Masonic beliefs or practices tie in with Illuminati or Zionist beliefs, (I have heard that they do) but if they do in some way, then a prospective Mason should think twice about joining.

 

[George the 3rd]

There are only two types of Masonic "secrets". First, the "modes of recognition", i.e. signs and grips. All of which are posted all over the web.

Second, the form or wording of the various rituals used to confer the degrees. The lessons of the degrees have been written about in profusion for centuries.

So, in essence, there are no secrets in or about Masonry.

 

[Albion]

I don't know if Masonic beliefs or practices tie in with Illuminati or Zionist beliefs, (I have heard that they do) but if they do in some way, then a prospective Mason should think twice about joining.

Well, of course, that's safe to say. But what is the practical effect of it? If it were true that Masons (or Rotarians) eat babies for lunch, it would be a good idea for Christians not to join them, wouldn't it?

But no one has found any of this to be true!

I posted my other thread on this subject months ago asking for even one piece of evidence of Satanism or Illuminati control or influence. Just one. Hundreds of posts went by with many anti-Masons saying that anyone who joins is in the grip of Satan, is deluded, or worse. BUT THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE. The most that could be said was what you just did--that maybe at some unknown secret higher-up leadership position maybe this happens. Someone said it does.

When did it become the case that having no evidence at all proves any proposition to be true?

And more than that...IF, as is the case, no Mason below that level knows anything about it, wouldn't the test of the rightness or wrongness of their own actions be what THEY do, not someone else? Certainly, it would.

A similar argument is made that all the world's governments are controlled by Satanist bankers in Europe or such. Does that mean that if I vote for president, that I myself am assisting Satan? What a strange argument that is. It is said that Proctor and Gamble is Satanic. Do I buy other pharmaceuticals or else I am a Satanist myself?

 

[Rev Wayne]

I never said secrecy=evil
I believe secrecy=deception which may be hiding evil.

Not one iota of semantic difference between the two, so why quibble? Either way, your presupposition is, there is something intrinsically wrong with secrecy.

And you ignored the pertinent part of my reply, which explains where the secrecy came from. Since Masons were secretive because of persecution that could result in pain to themselves and/or their companions, surely you can see the purpose of it was to ensure their own safety?

 

[Rev Wayne]

I don't know if Masonic beliefs or practices tie in with Illuminati or Zionist beliefs

If you don't mind, maybe you could share with us what you mean when you say "Zionist beliefs?"

 

[HomeBound]

And you ignored the pertinent part of my reply, which explains where the secrecy came from. Since Masons were secretive because of persecution that could result in pain to themselves and/or their companions, surely you can see the purpose of it was to ensure their own safety?

I didn't mean to ignore anything. I understood your reply to mean that that's how the secrecy started, but nowadays there doesn't seem to be that need of secrecy, unless there's still a threat to the lives of Masons. If there is a threat, why?

If you don't mind, maybe you could share with us what you mean when you say "Zionist beliefs?"

I didn't mean anything offensive or anti-semitic. I was just putting something out there that I've heard on the internet. You know all the conspiracy theories out there.

I believe the site said that Zionism was a masonic term coined by the Jesuits or some foolishness like that. I was just curious what a Mason would say on the subject.

 

[HomeBound]

Oh and yet from another "website"

"The serpent is the symbol and prototype of the Universal Savior, who redeems the worlds by giving creation the knowledge of itself and the realization of good and evil." (Manly P. Hall, 33 Degree Mason, The Secret Teachings of All Ages , the Philosophical Research Society Press, p. lxxxviii.)

Let us repeat this insight for you: "The serpent is the symbol and prototype of the Universal Savior, who redeems the worlds ..."

Thank you very much for this insight, Mr. Hall; of course, we should not be surprised, for Mr. Hall told us in his book, The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry, that the properly prepared Mason had the "seething energies of Lucifer in his hands", (p. 48)

Can you imagine such blasphemy? Freemasons depict the Universal Savior of the world as the Serpent. This boldly damning statement was never meant for public eyes, because this book was published as a secret book. Now do you see why Freemasonry insists that their Initiates take a solemn vow to never divulge their secrets, under the penalty of having their throat slit and being disemboweled?

But, Albert Pike, the most revered 33 Degree Mason of all time, has more blasphemy. Listen to him describe the Ouroboros, the symbol of the serpent devouring his own tail. "It is the body of the Holy Spirit, the Universal Agent, the Serpent devouring its own tail." (Morals and Dogma , p. 734, teachings of the 28th Degree, Knight of the Sun, or Prince Adept)

Thus, Freemasonry blasphemes both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit of the Trinity. What did Jesus Christ say about this type of situation? "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

That is from this site

 

[Rev Wayne]

I understood your reply to mean that that's how the secrecy started, but nowadays there doesn't seem to be that need of secrecy, unless there's still a threat to the lives of Masons. If there is a threat, why?

The real question is, is there any secrecy left in Masonry? And the generally agreed-upon answer by every Mason I have seen answering the question is, "No."

So exactly what "secrecy" are you rambling about?

I was just putting something out there that I've heard on the internet.

And with that honest answer, you have just encapsulated the entire antimasonic ticket. That's all any of them do, which is why there is such a glut of misinformation about masonry.

I was just curious what a Mason would say on the subject.

I disagree, I don't think you brought it up out of curiosity at all. I assumed you brought it up in ignorance, hence my question, and your answer confirms it.

Oh and yet from another "website"

Since you have already given ample evidence, by your own admission, that you don't always understand things you read on websites before repeating them, why would anyone read another of your quotes?

Just curious.

 

[George the 3rd]

Numbers 21:4-9 (New International Version)

The Bronze Snake


4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!" 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

 

[Rev Wayne]

A response is in order, despite what was implied by the rhetorical question of my last post.

Can you imagine such blasphemy? Freemasons depict the Universal Savior of the world as the Serpent.

Not true. You have not shown what “Freemasonry depicts” by citing one Mason—and especially not when that one Mason is Manly Palmer Hall. For one thing, the quotes you specifically address could not possibly be “what Freemasonry depicts” on this or any other subject. Hall wrote The Lost Keys of Freemasonry in 1923. He wrote The Secret Teachings of All Ages in 1929. So it is presumptuous, to put it mildly, to claim that Hall spoke for Masonry in either of these books, when he never became a Mason until decades later, in 1953.

Certainly, Lost Keys was reprinted years later, after Hall had been a Mason for a number of years. But even then, it was not done so at the behest of any Grand Lodge, nor was it printed by any of the Masonic publishing houses. It is just as it was when first printed in 1923, representative of Hall’s own ideas about Masonry. True, there are some Masons who have an avid interest in the kind of esoteric philosophical speculation for which Hall is notorious. But Masons in general are no more interested in highly esoteric work like Hall’s, any more than they were interested in previous years (or even since) in the same kind of meanderings in the work of Albert Pike.

In other words, Hall speaks primarily for himself, and a few Masons who enjoy the kind of speculation that St. Augustine referred to as “counting the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.”

I recently joined our Grand Lodge’s research arm, and attended my first meeting about a month ago. When all the business had been concluded and the president opened it up for discussion of anything relating to our efforts in research, one gentleman stood up and inquired how many would be interested in discussing the esoteric. He shared a few thoughts, in which he mentioned, almost inevitably, Albert Pike’s seminal work Morals and Dogma. When he had finished, no one responded in the least. At least, not to the speaker. There were some knowing looks passed around from one person to another, and it was easy to see there was simply no interest whatsoever in engaging this conversation. The president, who had apparently been much aware of the situation as well, then arose and spoke, sharing his own sentiments on the matter, gave a summation of what he thought of such philosophizing in general, and made it pretty clear that the topic would not be any major focal point of our group any time soon.

I find that to be a general sentiment in Masonry elsewhere. There are small pockets here and there where some interest in esoterica may be present, but you will probably find one Mason in a thousand who gets very excited about it at all. Or less.

And you mis-read Pike if you portray his beliefs to be anything like what you cited. M & D reads like an encyclopedia of comparative religion. Sure, Pike discusses exactly what you cited. But he discusses a lot of other bizarre things too. What you fail to see is, Pike discusses these things in the context of “this is what Religion X believed, this is what religion Y believed, this is what religion Z believed,” etc. etc. You will not find him engaging in a discussion such as that one, and stating at any time “this is what I believe,” or “this is what Masons believe.” He makes that eminently clear in the preface to the book.

And where did you get the idea that in the comment cited, he had in mind the God of the Christian Trinity when he said “Holy Spirit?” After all, in the preceding paragraph, he had just cited the Gnostics and their belief about this being the “igneous body of the Holy Spirit.” He appears to be elaborating further upon THEIR beliefs, not extemporizing upon his own. One of the problems in reading Pike is, he often launches into things that others had written, without introduction, without quotes, without any indication that he is discussing beliefs other than his own, other than having introduced it somewhere else, often several paragraphs or even pages earlier. (And actually, if you read Hall's preface to STOAA, you will find that he makes a similar disclaimer statement to that of Pike, noting that he has quoted the work of others, not merely stated his own opinions.)

So when I see one-line quotes of Pike, I generally smile and ignore them, knowing that whoever has quoted a half-sentence of Pike and considered it definitive of anything at all, hardly has any comprehension of Pike.

But of course, as you’ve already pointed out, the posting habits of most antimasons hardly requires any level of reading comprehension, just an ability to cut and paste.

Now do you see why Freemasonry insists that their Initiates take a solemn vow to never divulge their secrets, under the penalty of having their throat slit and being disemboweled?

Well, as I’ve pointed out already, this has nothing to do with Masons or Masonic secrecy, nor could it possibly have any such connection with “keeping secrets” of Masonry, since it was written around 25 years before Hall ever became a Mason.

This boldly damning statement was never meant for public eyes, because this book was published as a secret book.

Oh really? Secret Teachings of All Ages is not even a Masonic book, it deals with all sorts of traditions, not just Masonry. Besides, Hall refutes your claim even in his preface:

The pre-publication sale of this book has been without known precedent in book history. The subscription list for the first edition of 550 copies was entirely closed a year before the manuscript was placed in the printer's hands. The second, or King Solomon, edition, consisting of 550 copies, and the third, or Theosophical, edition, consisting of 200 copies, were sold before the finished volume was received from the printer. For so ambitious a production, this constitutes a unique achievement. The credit for this extraordinary sales program belongs to Mrs. Maud F. Galigher, who had as her ideal not to sell the book in the commercial sense of the word but to place it in the hands of those particularly interested in the subject matter it contains. Valuable assistance in this respect was also rendered by numerous friends who had attended my lectures and who without compensation undertook and successfully accomplished the distribution of the book.

“Published as a secret book?????”

 

[HomeBound]

See...
This is why it's good that you guys are here to clear up these matters.

The questions I posted only helped clear these matters, so don't be so snooty in your responses.

 

[HomeBound]

Hall exposing secrets 25 years before he even became a Mason is very significant don't you think?

 

[HomeBound]

Now, this is something I found pretty interesting.
Would you say that this example is just a coincidence?
If not, would you have any explanation for this?
Does it indicate that masons are responsible for US currency?
Does the star of David hold any significance in Freemasonry? (hence my question about Zionism)

I'm not trying to bait anyone here. I promise you that I am truly curious about many matters and this is just one of them.