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Self-existence and the nature of God

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Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

The Bible has gone through the dark ages, an age of buying and selling indulgences, of buying and selling church positions. The scriptures were altered in order to make people fear, rather than Love God. Many recognize the fallen state of the church, and have attempted to reform it. What was required was not to reform – but to restore.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Moroni 7:11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.


You may not now be familiar with the words of Moroni, but I ask you to judge these words on content – do they speak evil of God? Are these words of contention, hypocrisy, do these words defile the nature of God? Do these words make God into a creator of evil?

They do not – these words speak peace, they attest to the Loving nature of God, might they remove any blasphemous notions of God being anything but good, just, holy, merciful, and righteous. Can you not see the horrors that are being taught in the churches of man? Will you not open your eyes to the true nature of your Loving God?
 
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gluadys

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[ The scriptures were altered in order to make people fear, rather than Love God.

Can you give an example of such an alteration?

How do you distinguish between altered and unaltered passages of the bible---other than by whether they agree or disagree with what you believe?

btw, although I think Moroni is a fictional character and his words have no authority for me, I do note that the passage quoted says nothing about evil being self-existent or eternal.

Is there any passage in your scripture that says explicitly that evil has these properties?
 
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Doctrine and Covenants Section 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man…

http://scriptures.lds.org/

http://mormon.org
 
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theFijian

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Doctrine and CovenantsSection93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man…

http://scriptures.lds.org/

http://mormon.org
oh I see now, no point in any further discussion then. I am left wondering, however, why no Creationists have tackled these arguments.
 
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gluadys

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Doctrine and Covenants Section 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man…

http://scriptures.lds.org/

http://mormon.org

Still no mention of evil being self-existent or eternal.
 
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Intelligence was not created - that is the part of us that was not created "intelligence"

Can you give an example of such an alteration?

You quote an example of such an alteration:

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?!!???

The word “done” should be “known”
I don’t want to dwell on altered scriptures… Here are some that reveal the true nature of God:

Matthew 6:8 … your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Deuteronomy 7:9 … the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him

Deuteronomy 23:5…the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.

Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of Love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. (We do not start out as His – we “become” His)

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; He will save, He will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (God is the opposite of satan – God did not create evil.)

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

God is Love – and does not create evil.
 
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gluadys

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Let the Holy Spirit Guide :)

IOW, you really have no clue whether any text has been altered or not.

In fact, biblical scholars who have studied the ancient manuscripts can give dozens of examples where we have variances in the text--indicating that, indeed, the text was altered at some point. I don't know of any that support your re-interpretation of Amos 3:6 however.

Actually, I would not use either this text or Isaiah 45:7 to make a case about "evil" as I disagree with the KJV translation in both cases.

In fact, I don't know of another translation that uses "evil" in these texts.

Here are some other renderings of those texts:

Isaiah 45:7 I bring prosperity and create disaster (NIV)

I bring both blessing and disaster (TEV)

I make good fortune and create calamity (JB)

I make weal and create woe (NRSV)


Amos 3:6 When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? (NIV)

Does disaster strike a city unless the LORD sends it? (TEV)

Does misfortune come to a city if Yahweh has not sent it? (JB)

Does disaster befall a city unless the LORD has done it? (NRSV)


I don't see why you want to assert that the text has been altered. Do you think it unloving of God to exercise judgment against oppressors by bringing calamity on them? Was it evil of God to send plagues on Egypt to free the Israelites? Was it evil of God to punish Samaria and Jerusalem for their sins against God and the covenant? Was it evil of God to bring down the oppressive powers of Assyria and Babylon?

Would it not have been more evil to permit oppression to continue without judgment?

Maybe you have been building a case against how a word was translated more than against allegedly altered scripture.
 
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Discipline is not evil.
Our imperfect nature requires discipline –which is proof of our self-existent nature - if we were perfectly created, we would not need discipline. Yet, this is who we are. What lengths would a parent go to save their child from drugs, bad friends, etc… You do everything you can to correct them, teach them, make them into a better person. God does everything He can to purify us – in this life, and in the next – everything save take away our free agency.

As for textual criticism… it helps, but is still insufficient. I may have already said this, but consider the scribes and Pharisees – they had the scriptures in their own language, the original version, and were either unable to understand, or worse, understood and rebelled against what they knew. Scriptures can only get you so far, the rest you need to seek guidance and strength from the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe in a Loving God?
 
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Have you ever felt the Holy Spirit?

This was not dodging the question - the Holy Spirit is real, can communicate with you, will and does reveal what is truth and what is not. I believe in God, not because I have read the scriptures, not through church, but becuase of the Holy Spirit.
 
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gluadys

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Discipline is not evil.
Our imperfect nature requires discipline –which is proof of our self-existent nature - if we were perfectly created, we would not need discipline.


Nonsense. Jesus was subjected to discipline. Was it because he had an imperfect nature?


Do you believe in a Loving God?

God is love. God is our very definition of love. The God of love is revealed to us in Christ and scripture bears witness to that revelation.

It is because I believe God is love that I do not believe evil is self-existent or eternal. It is because I believe God is love that I know all evil will be overcome and God's love will reign supreme.
 
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Why do you believe in the Holy Spirit?
Why do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Because I have felt His presence.

God is our very definition of love

Glad to hear you agree :)

Jesus was not being disciplined. God did not kill Jesus. God is Love, remember? We are the ones who killed Jesus, not God.
 
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gluadys

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Why do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Because I have felt His presence.

God is our very definition of love

Glad to hear you agree :)

Jesus was not being disciplined. God did not kill Jesus. God is Love, remember? We are the ones who killed Jesus, not God.

I wasn't thinking of Jesus' death as discipline. Rather I was thinking of his childhood. For Luke tells us he was obedient to Mary and Joseph. This implies that they exercised parental discipline over him. Luke also tells us that he increased in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and men. An increase in stature is pretty much automatic, but increasing in wisdom and in favour with God and men again implies the discipline of study, prayer and other spiritual disciplines and of socialization. We also learn that Jesus was a carpenter. This implies the discipline of learning that skill.

Why would you think discipline and love are mutually exclusive? A loving parent is a parent who exercises discipline. As does a loving teacher. After all "discipline" is how one trains a "disciple" i.e. a student.

So, Jesus was subjected to discipline. Was it because he had an imperfect nature?
 
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shernren

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Just in case this passage hasn't been raised yet, re. Jesus being disciplined:

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
(Hebrews 5:7-10 NIV)

(emphases added) Those are mind-blowing ideas. But ideas we have to grapple with all the same.
 
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theFijian

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Why do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Because I have felt His presence.
How do you know that what you felt was the Holy Spirit unless you knew about him through the Bible?
Jesus was not being disciplined. God did not kill Jesus. God is Love, remember? We are the ones who killed Jesus, not God.

I suppose Isaiah 53:10 is another one of those 'altered' parts of the Bible?
 
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