What is "tradition" to you, then?You are arguing about his age. that is not a tradition so your argument is spurious.
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What is "tradition" to you, then?You are arguing about his age. that is not a tradition so your argument is spurious.
What is "tradition" to you, then?
Are the teachings and writings of Irenaeus, for example, included in this "tradition"?Any teaching or practice which has been transmitted and believed from generation to generation throughout the life of the Church.
He was an early Christian writer.Josephus was NOT an early christian father.
You want me to show you some early muslim writings about praying to muhammad, and ali? OH! LOOK! You muslims have changed!My point was that while some Christians claimed the "traditions" they follow are accurate and fruitful in explaining and defending the bible and their faith, they forget that the same early christian fathers "wrote things" that might not be consistent with the bible.
Tradition does not contradict Scripture.You therefore need to make a choice: the "tradition" or the "scripture".
That's what you say. Some of you Christians believe in sola scriptura, some do not and "tradition" plays an important part.
Why do some Christians stick to "traditions" that can be questionable??
Anything writings outside the Bible?What is "tradition" to you, then?
I remember once there was a poster here who keep saying Muslims adopted tu quoque policy. Dont tell me you want to adopt that too??français;38215831 said:You want me to show you some early muslim writings
Again. What is your point?français;38215846 said:Are the teachings of the shiah included in your sunni traditions?
The same reason Muslims do.That's what you say. Some of you Christians believe in sola scriptura, some do not and "tradition" plays an important part.
Why do some Christians stick to "traditions" that can be questionable??
What is "tradition" to you, then?
Any teaching or practice which has been transmitted and believed from generation to generation throughout the life of the Church.
Are the teachings and writings of Irenaeus, for example, included in this "tradition"?
Interestingly when we talk about Irenaeus, and the apostoloc tradition, we find that Irenaeus believed Jesus died of old age!
I was shocked myself to read this, but it is true. Read this:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103222.htm
Those were the writings of Irenaeus, whom you state as "one of the foremost early apologists against all the heresies", and whose writings totally contradict the gospel writers.
Notice in his writing, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103222.htm
Irenaeus did not mention anything about crucifixion of Christ.
In fact, Irenaeus, labelled 'false' those who believe the gospel's narration that Jesus preached for only one year.
INTERESTING!
I am trying to find another statement of Eusebius who stated that Father Papias did not believe in the crucifixion and resurrection. Will post once I have them.
Which strikes me as odd.
Catholics and Orthodox follow the 'traditions' and non-sola scriptura. Yet I have read a few statements from the early church fathers (will post other INTERESTING writings) whose accounts contradicts the bible's.
The same question Irenaus asked, "whom then should you rather believe"?
Well, you're proving that you are not infallible more and more, islam_mulia. Not only do you read the Scriptures incorrectly because you wrench them out of context, you also do the same with the Fathers. Why didn't you present ALL of what St. Irenaeus has to say? Then you might understand his point IN CONTEXT. First of all, Irenaeus' point is that Jesus' humanity identifies with human beings of every age:we find that Irenaeus believed Jesus died of old age!
hola,
it depends upon what he wrote. merely being a saint or being a bishop or pope does not mean everything you say all the time is 100 percent infallible and correct. if certain writings of Irenaeus are found to be fallible then, while they are part of the Sacred Tradition... they are probably not going to be taught and adopted by the Church and the Catholics.
que Dios te bendiga
That is the problem with Christians. On the one hand, you, Secundulus, was very bold in introducing Irenaeus as the "foremost early apologist" hoping to convince us that the early christian fathers kept the "traditions" and hence you have all the evidence to point to the biblical narratives.
When I referred you to the same Ireneaus, you now said his writings on Jesus age was "irrelevant". Why was Jesus living until 50 years considered "not important". Remember, Ireneaus also said it is "false" to believe Jesus preached for one year only... he did it till 50, at least.
Either the biblical account or the "traditions" are WRONG... or there are other things that are not open and transparent for us to see and decide.
Do you misquote me on purpose or are you just inherently dishonest. I said his age is irrelevent, not the writings of Ireneaus.
Josephus was NOT an early christian father.
My point was that while some Christians claimed the "traditions" they follow are accurate and fruitful in explaining and defending the bible and their faith, they forget that the same early christian fathers "wrote things" that might not be consistent with the bible.
You therefore need to make a choice: the "tradition" or the "scripture".
That's what you say. Some of you Christians believe in sola scriptura, some do not and "tradition" plays an important part.
Why do some Christians stick to "traditions" that can be questionable??
I was referring to your "tradition" which Catholics and Orthodox believe. How in the world has that got to do with what Muslims practice??
My contention was that some of the statements of the Churh Fathers are not consistent with the narrations of the Bible. Hence, I quoted an example that Irenaeus wrote that Jesus lived up to 50 years until the time of King Trajan. Obviously, this cannot be supported by the bible. Holding on to the "tradition" may not be the best thing then.
Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?
I began by reading the hadithas (since I can not read Arabic and it is a sin to read the Q'uran in English , isn't it?) They are nonsensical legalistic ethnocentrism. Don't sit, propping yourself up with your hand, for that is the way Christians and Jews sit.I would like to add some points in here if brother
anatolian don't
mind.
I would like to say that Jesus (peace be upon him)
was sent to Sons of Israel at his time and by
comparing Chrsitianity to Islam you can see also that
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent to Quraish at his time and they were
the first ones to know about his message but as long as his message is permenant then all the world must follow the last Holy Book which is The Holy Quran and this is for a hidden wisedome by Allah that He had His messangers
after each other to complete the message on Earth.
Before the prophet died he said:
3. Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
So why to differentiate between religions while
they are all the completing each other but as long as some originals are lost then the best solution is to stick to the remaining original which is the Holy Quran.
From here and from now on I ask every non muslim to take 10 minutes among his/her busy day to read a small part of the Holy Quran and forget about any other prejudice ideas that you have about Islam.
Then you will find that those 10 minutes are not wasted on a trivial thing-Allah forbids.
I began by reading the hadithas
(since I can not read Arabic and it is a sin to read the Q'uran in English , isn't it?)
They are nonsensical legalistic ethnocentrism. Don't sit, propping yourself up with your hand, for that is the way Christians and Jews sit.
I have a suggestion. Why don't you encourage Muslims to stop worrying about what Allah forbids, and start worrying about what Allah requires?
At least we know Jesus pbuh has not called anyone dog ,because of not being jewish.The famous passge from the gospel of barnabas .
We find out why he called others dogs .
And lo! a woman of Canaan with her two sons, who had come forth out of her own country to find Jesus. Having therefore seen him come with his disciples, she cried out: 'Jesus, son of David, have mercy on my daughter, who is tormented of the devil! Jesus did not answer even a single word, because they were of the uncircumcised people. The disciples were moved to pity, and said: 'O master, have pity on them! Behold how much they cry out and weep!'
Jesus answered: 'I am not sent but unto the people of Israel.' Then the woman, with her sons, went before Jesus, weeping and saying: 'O son of David, have mercy on me!' Jesus answered: 'It is not good to take the bread from the children's hands and give it to the dogs.' And this said Jesus by reason of their uncleanness, because they were of the un- circumcised people.
The woman answered: 'O Lord, the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.' Then was Jesus seized with admiration at the words of the woman, and said: 'O woman, great is thy faith.' And having raised his hands to heaven he prayed to God, and then he said: 'O woman, thy daughter is freed, go thy way in peace.' The woman departed, and returning to her home found her daughter, who was blessing God.' Wherefore the woman said: 'Verily there is none other God than the God of Israel.' Whereupon all her kinsfolk joined themselves unto the law of [God], according to the law written in the book of Moses.
Chapter 22 Miserable condition of the uncircumcised in that a dog is better than they.
The disciples questioned Jesus on that day, saying: 'O master, why didst thou make such answer to the woman, saying that they were dogs?'
Jesus answered: 'Verily I say unto you that a dog is better than an uncircumcised man.' Then were the disciples sorrowful, saying: 'Hard are these words, and who shall be able to receive them?'
Jesus answered: "If ye consider, O foolish ones, what the dog doth, that hath no reason, for the service of his master, ye will find my saying to be true. Tell me, doth the dog guard the house of his master, and expose his life against the robber? Yea, assuredly. But what receiveth he? Many blows and injuries with little bread, and he always showeth to his master a joyful countenance. Is this true?'
'True it is, O master,' answered the disciples.
Then said Jesus: 'Consider now how much God hath given to man, and ye shall see how unrighteous he is in not observing the covenant of God made with Abraham his servant. Remember that which David said to Saul king of Israel, against Goliath the Philistine: "My lord," said David, "while thy servant was keeping thy servant's flock there came the wolf, the bear, and the lion and seized thy servant's sheep: whereupon thy servant went and slew them, rescuing the sheep. And what is this uncircumcised one but like unto them ? Therefore will thy servant go in the name of the Lord God of Israel, and will slay this unclean one that blasphemeth the holy people of God."
Then said the disciples: 'Tell us O master for what reason man must needs be circumcised?"
Jesus answered: 'Let it suffice you that God hath commanded it to Abraham. saying: "Abraham, circumcise thy foreskin and that of all thy house, for this is a covenant between me and thee for ever.''