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Catherineanne

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Since it is nowhere written in Scripture that Scripture is inerrant, why do some people believe it is not only reasonable, but even essential to believe this particular bit of patent nonsense?

If the Bible does not say it, why does anyone, and most particularly the so called 'Bible believers', believe it?
 

StephenDM

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The Bible I have in my possession today is not innerrant because there have been slight copyist errors down through history and also errors in translation between languages. I think this has been proven.

However, I choose to believe that the Bible, in its original manuscripts was totally without error. I base this on a variety of reasons.

#1 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" - 2 Tim. 3:16

If God cannot "inspire" something that is totally correct then He would have to be a liar. One Bible passage states God cannot lie. The Bible also condemns prophets as totally false who are proven to teach anything false even if the other 99% of what they prophesy proves correct.

#2 It has been proven that there has been a high degree of reliability in the the transmission through history of scripture by the discovery and comparsion of ancient manuscripts. I have also heard that we have far fewer copies of other ancient documents and still we regard their transmission/copying as basically accurate.

#3 God proves He is concerned about accuracy of the scriptures by warning judgment on those who knowingly alter it (ie. Revelation 22:19). See also Matt. 5:18.

#4 The Bible is self-proving to someone who wants to seriously search it out because of the combination of words and teachings written over hundreds of years (by people who did not directly know each other) which all echo a common theme. The fact that there are a majority of Jews who deny Christ yet still hold to the Old Testament proves that there could not be collusion between Christians and Jews through out history in compiling the present Bible. I believe the Old Testament time and time again proves Jesus Christ and the only explanation for that has to be supernatural.

#5 Some religions cite certain individual people as their source of revelation (ie. Muslims point to Mohammed, who is now dead). I can point to an entire nation of witnesses (Israel) who are not only still alive but organized into a nation state! (Fullfilling yet another ancient prophecy in Ezekiel.) Israel is a race of people whose physical existence has a basis in a rather unusual call by God to not only Abraham (which Muslims also believe) but also Isaac and Jacob. Even secular Jews should refer at least in part to the books of Moses to explain their history. You may say, well by that standard of argument isn't every Muslim a witness to the accuracy of Mohammed? Maybe. However, I'm not even beginning to address the testimony of millions of Christians around the world but only that of unbelieving Jews!

#6 Parts of the Bible that were thought to be inaccurate or odd in the past have been found to be portals to deeper meanings which proves the Bible's supernatural origin (ie. see Chuck Missler's book Hidden Treasures in the Biblical Text).

#7 The Bible teaches that faith is required to please God, therefore it is possible to assume by faith that the people who complied the books of the Bible were under the influence of God's Holy Spirit. In other words, I can believe even if I don't see all the absolute evidence.

I could go on and on explaining the inadequecy of the the theory of evolution in explaining all life, scientific evidences in the Bible, etc...
I choose to believe that the Bible is a supernatural book telling of a supernatural Jesus Christ who is God existing from before time began. Since He is God, His blood sacrifice is sufficient to atone for, as one preacher puts it, "the sum total of all human existence". I buy into this atonement by also believing in His supernatural resurrection. Finally, since the orgin of the Biblical message is so supernatural there is also limited sense in trying to explain it all in human terms.
 
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elsbeth

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Because it makes them feel more secure. Because its easier to belive in absolutes then to think. Because that way people can still apply the rules for behavior, even though they were written for a culture in a different part of the world, thousands of years ago. Because someone they respect said so, and they don't want to question what that person said. Because it is what they were taught and they don't want to question the teaching.
I could go on, but what's the point. One can't get through to people who think that way. reason doesn't work.
 
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t1mp

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Because it makes them feel more secure. Because its easier to belive in absolutes then to think. Because that way people can still apply the rules for behavior, even though they were written for a culture in a different part of the world, thousands of years ago. Because someone they respect said so, and they don't want to question what that person said. Because it is what they were taught and they don't want to question the teaching.
I could go on, but what's the point. One can't get through to people who think that way. reason doesn't work.
where is the error tho?
 
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elsbeth

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where is the error tho?
Alright- if one runs the geneologies given, doesn't the age of the earth come out to something like 6000 yrs? Scientists say the earth is a whole lot older than this. They are basing their conclusions on their observations of God's creation. So I conclude that the geneologies are incorrect.
 
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KEPLER

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Hello all...before this goes too far off, let's just review a little bit of etiquette, shall we?

It's probably best not to start off a thread by calling someone else's belief "patent nonsense". It's fine to state your disagreement with it, but do so civilly and with well reasoned support.

OTOH, we (the mods) are not here to oversee that people have the "right" interpretation. This is a debate forum; it's for you all to discuss, persuade, wrestle, whatever... Do not report posts just because you don't like the other person's interpretation.

Carry on....
 
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StephenDM

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I just got a private message which seems to say that I have reported someone. I apologize for this. I did not do so intentionally. I must have pressed some key(s) I did not mean to! No one here has offended me or said anything outside of the realm of what I consider normal debate. I guess this explains why the above moderator message was posted.

Back to the debate:

Science itself is subject to bias which perhaps causes scientists to ignore other contrary evidence.

Carbon 14 dating, for example, is only reliable for a relatively short time-frame since carbon 14 halves itself every few thousand years. What is left after "millions of years" is practically non-existent and therefore should not be used as conclusive evidence. It still is, however, because scientists need it to prove their theories. Carbon 14 dating has been proven innaccurate time and time again with various examples.

Scientists may also use the speed of light to determine the size and therefore the age of the universe. But wait - we might now have evidence that the speed of light is not the fastest possible speed in the universe and may also change over time!

Scientists may also assume things about past environments which may not be true. Things which could in fact have a bearing on how we perceive the natural environment today. (ie. the earth described in the Bible before the flood seems to have had a layer of water above the sky - strange - did this affect the amount of carbon 14 in the world?)

I am not a scientist and may be wrong in many areas but there are highly educated scientists out there who do not believe in evolution or an old earth. See www.creationontheweb.org.
 
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t1mp

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Alright- if one runs the geneologies given, doesn't the age of the earth come out to something like 6000 yrs? Scientists say the earth is a whole lot older than this. They are basing their conclusions on their observations of God's creation. So I conclude that the geneologies are incorrect.
Well scientist themselves discover their own hypothesis and 'facts' to be errant upon further scientific 'revelations'.

No where in the Old Testament does it say that x amount of years was the span of the old testament. To put in perspective, people lived really long lives, generations lasted a lot longer, Methusula lived to be 900+ years is one example.

So I really don't see how you can throw the bible out on that account.
 
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ARBITER01

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Alright- if one runs the geneologies given, doesn't the age of the earth come out to something like 6000 yrs? Scientists say the earth is a whole lot older than this. They are basing their conclusions on their observations of God's creation. So I conclude that the geneologies are incorrect.

The bible is not based on science, it is based on the faith of the Son of GOD that loved me.

For instance,...if you look in Genesis, you will notice that all the plant life was placed upon the earth "prior" to GOD making the sun and moon to give light upon it.

This destroys the notion that evolution and the bible co-exhist somehow, and definitely calls into question the natural laws in motion at the moment.

Now,..do I throw out my bible because I see a section that completely disagree's with the material world? Absolutely not, GOD revealed HIMSELF in immense power and love to my soul when I accepted HIS Son into my heart, and that experience is beyond mere words to describe here.

So my walk is by faith from HIM above, not on what people claim to be. If GOD says that HE planted the vegetation in Genesis first, The Holy Spirit witnesses that to my spirit as truth and I have absolutely no reason to doubt GOD did just as HE said in that book.
 
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StephenDM

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Right on, Arbitero1!

God is not dependant on the sun to sustain plant life or to order "days". He Himself gives off light and can make anything He wants give off light. I think God made the physical sun on the fourth day perhaps to prove to us that He is supernatural and above the "observed" laws of nature since He Himself created them.

I believe, however, that the Bible is accurate when it explains things of a scientific nature - unlike God, we just don't have a true understanding of all science.
 
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leothelioness

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Alright- if one runs the geneologies given, doesn't the age of the earth come out to something like 6000 yrs? Scientists say the earth is a whole lot older than this. They are basing their conclusions on their observations of God's creation. So I conclude that the geneologies are incorrect.
If you go back and read Genesis you will see that man was the LAST thing to be created. The earth was the FIRST thing. The earth was around far longer that man was.

So just because the earth is millions of years old doesn't mean that humans are.

And we "Bible believers" are the ones who can't think??? *roll eyes*
 
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Xenon

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If you go back and read Genesis you will see that man was the LAST thing to be created. The earth was the FIRST thing. The earth was around far longer that man was.

So just because the earth is millions of years old doesn't mean that humans are.

Not if you believe in a literal 6 days of creation. In that case the earth wasn't around for very long prior to man. Personally I believe in the inerrancy of the bible, so 6 literal days of creation is not a hard thing to swallow considering the omnipotence of god.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Not if you believe in a literal 6 days of creation. In that case the earth wasn't around for very long prior to man. Personally I believe in the inerrancy of the bible, so 6 literal days of creation is not a hard thing to swallow considering the omnipotence of god.
So why does everything look billions of years old?
 
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Steve Petersen

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Innereancy? Which Bible. The one today's western Christians use? Based on which manuscripts?

The one the Coptic Christian churches use (different books than the westernBible) ?

The one Syrian Christians use (different books also.)

Now, if even one error in the textual transmission is found, the whole inerrancy thing falls apart.

It is no comfort to say the 'the originals were inerrant' because we don't have them with us.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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How would you know if something LOOKS billions of years old? Thats a stretch.
For starters, Uranium-Lead dating on fragments of the Canyon Diablo meteorite imply an age of ~4.5 billion years. I.e., it looks ~4.5 billion years old.
So, why would God create things to look billions of years old?
 
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StephenDM

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Innereancy? Which Bible. The one today's western Christians use? Based on which manuscripts?

The one the Coptic Christian churches use (different books than the westernBible) ?

The one Syrian Christians use (different books also.)

Now, if even one error in the textual transmission is found, the whole inerrancy thing falls apart.

It is no comfort to say the 'the originals were inerrant' because we don't have them with us.

I don't see God in physical form but have found lots of other evidence for Him so I take the rest on faith. If we could see God perfectly (or see a perfect original manuscript) we would diminish the requirement for faith. Faith is based on evidence not seen (Heb. 11:1).
 
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calidog

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Since it is nowhere written in Scripture that Scripture is inerrant, why do some people believe it is not only reasonable, but even essential to believe this particular bit of patent nonsense?

If the Bible does not say it, why does anyone, and most particularly the so called 'Bible believers', believe it?
If your salvation is not based on what the bible says then the bible has little use for you. If your salvation is based on what is written, then what is written better be accurate, right?
 
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