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The Real Presence Debate Thread

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Ave Maria

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Hi everyone. :wave: I would like to debate about whether Christ is literally present in communion or not. I personally believe that He is not. What do you believe and how do you come about believing this?
 

LibraryOwl

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Guess we're all mkoving over from sojourners thread, huh?

I think for me, the most compelling evidence for an understanding of communion based on transubstantiation (or consubstantiation) is to be found in the church fathers. It is evident not only from the Bible, but from the writings of the fathers ; from the earliest point of it's conception, the church understood communion not to be a simple meal of remembrance, but an awesome act, and a central focus of Christian life. There are two common statements from the ancient authours. One is "we gather to worship" the other is "we gather to celebrate communion together" rarely do we hear them say "we gather to preach" or "we gather at church."

Here I supply the 65 article of St. Justin martyr's first apology. St. Justin was born a pagan- he became interested in philosophy and took up the school of Plato. Sometime around 132 AD he converted to Christianity. Tradition tells us that he was educated by someone who was himself educated by the apostle St. John. He converted at a time when the church still practised primitive communism. He would ultimately be beheaded during one of the persecutions against Christians when he refused to renounce his faith.
This food is called amoung us the Eucharist. No one is allowed to eat of it but he who believes that the things we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing which is for remmision of sins and unto a new birth, and who is living as Christ commanded. For not as common bread and common drink do we recieve them; but even as Jesus Christ our saviour, being made flesh by the word of God, took on flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise we are taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which transmutation our blood and flesh are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have delivered unto us what was imparted unto them; that Jesus took the bread, and when he had given thanks said: "This do in remembrance of me; this is my body" and that after that same manner, he took the cup, and giving thanks he said "this is my blood" ; and that he gave it to them alone.
 
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Ave Maria

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Guess we're all mkoving over from sojourners thread, huh?

I think for me, the most compelling evidence for an understanding of communion based on transubstantiation (or consubstantiation) is to be found in the church fathers. It is evident not only from the Bible, but from the writings of the fathers ; from the earliest point of it's conception, the church understood communion not to be a simple meal of remembrance, but an awesome act, and a central focus of Christian life. There are two common statements from the ancient authours. One is "we gather to worship" the other is "we gather to celebrate communion together" rarely do we hear them say "we gather to preach" or "we gather at church."

Here I supply the 65 article of St. Justin martyr's first apology. St. Justin was born a pagan- he became interested in philosophy and took up the school of Plato. Sometime around 132 AD he converted to Christianity. Tradition tells us that he was educated by someone who was himself educated by the apostle St. John. He converted at a time when the church still practised primitive communism. He would ultimately be beheaded during one of the persecutions against Christians when he refused to renounce his faith.
Very interesting. The only part of your post that I disagree with is that the early Christians practiced a form of primitive communism. That I disagree with.
 
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LibraryOwl

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Hm, a poetic thought, Thekla.

Besides the Bible verses which say that they gave everything they had and no one was short for anything, I was drawing on the footnotes from the same book I quoted that communion thing from. The note uses the words "the church at this time still practiced a primitive form of communism" to explain the words of St. Justin in the fourteenth chapter of his first apology:
So we, since our conversion by the word, keep away from demons, follow the only unbegotten God through his son. We who enoyed the pleasures of lust now embrace chastity. We who once resorted to the magical arts, now dedicate ourselves to the good and unbegotten God. We who prized above all else the aquisition of wealth and possessions, now bring what we have into a common stock, and share with everyone in need (here the footnote explains.) We who hated and destroyed one another, and, because their manners were strange, would not live with men of a different race, now since Christ has come, live familiarly with them and pray for our enemies.

The book was Marcus Aurelius And His Times. The texts of Justin martyr were translated by a large group of scholars. The publisher was Walter Black of Roslyn New York, for the Classics Club series.
 
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Diane_Windsor

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I personally believe that He is not.

Yet you self-identify as a Roman Catholic. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "the Eucharist is 'the source and summit of the Christian life' (paragraph 1324)." Also in paragraph 1374 the Catechism clearly states the dogma of transubstantiation.

Why be a Roman Catholic when you do not subscribe to this very basic RC dogma?
 
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JimfromOhio

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To me, Christ is always literally within me. Spiritually, the Holy Spirit, the eternal Spirit of God,who dwelled in Jesus Christ, who empowers the Church, Who is the source of our life in Christ, and Who is poured out on those who believe as the guarantee of redemption. The Church is the assembly of those who have accepted God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. The spiritual Church is one body with many members, ordered in such a way that, through the one Spirit, believers may be built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God. Christians are called to a committed fellowship of believers in worsihp and communion.

I accept basically all forms of "Communion" that are biblical. They are just doctrinally different. God is not limited to man's doctrines of communion. We are simply to worship in Spirit.
 
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Ave Maria

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Yet you self-identify as a Roman Catholic. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "the Eucharist is 'the source and summit of the Christian life' (paragraph 1324)." Also in paragraph 1374 the Catechism clearly states the dogma of transubstantiation.

Why be a Roman Catholic when you do not subscribe to this very basic RC dogma?
I stated this before I chose to be a Roman Catholic again.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Well, here goes...

Argument from Fidelity

As Christians, indeed as Nicene Christians, we must be faithful to Scripture. And as it stands, Christ explicitly says "This is my body, this is my blood." There ends the matter.

Counterargument 1: Aren't you a historical Jesus student and a theistic evolutionist?

Indeed I am. But decreases my faithfulness to Holy Scripture. I reject Genesis 1-11 as literal history (though it contains a historical core), but I do not reject Genesis 1-11; indeed, the themes therein of monotheism, creation, fall, and salvation are core to the entire faith. And I reject the gospel genre as literal history as well; more like hagiography. But it is precisely because of my historical Jesus studies that I take the resurrection seriously, and one central implication of the resurrection: if Jesus is alive today, then even if he didn't say certain words in the specific time and place recorded, he still says them to us today as our present and reigning Lord.

Counterargument 2: But he also called himself a shepherd, a lamb, a vine, and a door.

It is true, that while we took at the bread and wine and say "there is Jesus," we do not look at these various other objects and there "there is Jesus."

But isn't that there the point. What door, what shephard, what vine? In these instances, Jesus says "I refer to myself as 'the door' or 'a lamb' or 'the vine.'" They are indefinite, or general. You can't point to 'the door.' You can only point to 'a door.' Yes, indeed, Christ generally embodies 'the door,' or doorness. He embodies what it means to be a door- to be a gateway, from which one can enter and exit, the judge by whom people enter the Kingdom or leave for damnation.

In the Eucharistic words of Christ, on the other hand, he uses a definitive pronoun, he says, "This is my body, this is my blood." This and is. You can't get around them; they are unique in all of Scripture.

Argument from Covenant Rituals

The designated way God's people have always commemorted his great deeds of the past and expressed their hopes for his future vindication has been through the reading of Scripture and the partaking of a covenant symbol, often a meal.

Such is the case with the Sabbath. During the Passover, the account of the escape from Egypt is read in tandum with the eating of the ritual foods and drink. They remember (Hrb = zikkaron; Grk = anemnesis) this even through these means, the reading of the word and the participation in the symbol. But remembrance, they young Jewish children are taught, is not merely a psychological or intellectual exercise. Through the covenant record of history, Sacred Scripture, and the covenant symbol, the Passover meal, the past is made a present reality. The young Jewish boy is taught not merely that at some point in Israel's ancient past God rescued his people, but that through the meal, God is rescuing the Jewish people in the present. And, through this Scripture and symbol of national vindication, they are working toward God's future vindication when Israel's spiritual exile will end and Maschiach (= Messiah) brings about national restorational.

So too is the case with the Sabbath. In the Sabbath, through the reading of the creation account and the ritual eating of bread and wine, the Jewish family does not merely remember creation in the past. Through the meal, God's act of creation becomes a present reality; through the meal the people of God ungo new creation, and wander as through the desert toward the promised land of the renewal of all creation at the end of ages.

And so too with Holy Communion. Just as the Jewish people remember (anamnesis) the exodus on Nisan 15 toward the effect of making past national vindication a present reality to work toward future culmination, and just as the Jewish people remember the completion of creation on Friday at dusk through the Scripture and meal to participate in creation in the present and work toward the renewal of all creation, we, the people of God, remember Christ's death and resurrection on the day of the resurrection, Sunday morning, through Word and Sacrament.

God's mighty deed of the past, the in-history redemption of his people through the saving work of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, becomes a present reality through the proclaimation of the Word and the celebration of the Sacrament which allows us to journey on toward the future culmination of the Kingdom of God at the end of history. This is not a psychological or intellectual exercise, not an inborn drive of sentiment, but an objective reality, a miracle, that God works each and every time we celebrate Holy Communion.

Argument from the Jerusalem Temple

In the tabernacle and the temple, God's true presence, the shekhinah glory, dwelt in fullness. It illuminated the path for the Israelites in the wilderness and provided the central link with God through the Jewish people. There was no worse day in the history of Israel than Tisha B'Av, a day in the Hebrew calender on which the Babylonians destroyed the first temple and the Romans the second.

Christians have a sense of a sacred center to our worship experience, a most intimate connection with God, as well. The Eucharist. And Scripture makes this clear.

Throughout his itinerant ministry, our Lord help a series of fellowship meals with his disciples. These meals were the origin of the practice of communion, which continued, of course, after his death in the apostolic Pentecost community. As with much of his ministry, Christ appropriated common Jewish symbols and reconstituted them in a more fitting way for the new era about to dawn. These meals stood in contrast to two such symbols.

The first was family. Although Christ and the apostles by no means rejected the family, they made clear that association with the church community was the basis of brotherhood in the new community (an association confirmed by Holy Baptism, but, that's a different story). And this community met in its fullness like nowhere else in its meals. Call it the Eucharist, call it Holy Communion, call it the Lord's Supper, call it love feast (as Jude does)- whatever the term, there were the central act of early Christian worship.

Just like the temple was to the Jews. Indeed, this is the second symbol Christ appropriated to convey the meaning of his fellowship meals. It is the counterpoint to Christ's critique of the temple that climaxed in the cleansing preceding his death. Where the twelve tribes of Israel met around the temple to worship Yahweh, the church community, led by the twelve apostles, met around the Eucharist to worship Christ. N.T. Wright says it best: "If the negative symbols embodying Jesus’ critique of his contemporaries come together in the Temple-action, the positive symbols of Jesus’ work come together in the upper room." (The Challenge of Jesus, 72).

If this argument seems shakey, don't worry, there's more. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul instructs the assembly at Corinth about the Eucharist. Because of this disregard for the sanctity of the meal, divisions among them, and their lack of repentence, some who had approached Holy Communion fell ill or died. Now what does this sound like to you? Just like the temple. In the temple, the shekhinah glory caused through who approached unworthily or improperly to fall ill and die. Now tell me, do, what in Scripture that is holy causes people to die other than the presence of the one true God? Nothing at all.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Counterargument 1 for this and previous section: But Christ did away with the rituals of Judaism by fulfilling their purpose on the cross.

Indeed he did. We don't sacrifice animals or put up nationally symbolic boundaries between different ethnic groups. But just because the rituals of Jewish atonement and Jewish national identity were broken down doesn't mean that the core idea behind them doesn't remain, or that rituals are entirely without meaning. Many of our actions are ritual without us thinking about it. Take a course in cultural anthropology; you'd be surprised how much we do day to day is ritual, and with good reason. Do you think that brushing your teeth is vain repetition?

I hope this is brought home ever further by a reading of Hebrew 9. There we learn that the old cultus was an immitation of the worship of God in the heavenly realms (the same heavenly worship we glimpse in Isaiah and Revelation- ever wonder why the chants of the angels are the same chants used in our liturgies?), but in the new era, through Christ, we actually participate and join in their worship. That is why in the liturgy we say "we join in their unending hymn," then sing, "Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might..." The new heavenly temple 'made without hands' has been sanctified by the blood of the lamb, and we enter it by what? Holy Communion.

Argument from Passover

Returning to the theme of Passover.... The Passover ritual bears heavily upon Holy Communion for the very simple reason that our central worship act was instituted in the course of that festival. And here there are two central points.

The first is that besides the institution of the Eucharist, there is something particurally odd about their Passover ceremony. It was held on a Thursday night, not a Friday, and wasn't complete. The texts tell us that after the words of the institution, Christ and the disciples sung a hymn and then went up to the Mount of Olives. In the Passover seder (= liturgy), the hymn that comes after the meal, bread, and third cup of wine is the Great Hallel, a melodic rendition of Psalms 113-118. But following the hymn there is supposed to be a fourth cup of wine. Where is it? Christ said he would not again drink of the fruit of the vine until he entered his Father's kingdom. And when do we next see Christ drinking wine in Scripture? On the cross! There is an intimate connection between the crucifixion of Christ and the upper room. Of course, you all know this. But it goes deep than that...

... because the second point is this: In order to receive the blessings of the Passover, an Israelite actually had to participate in the eating of the ritual meal and its lamb. Now, please think for a moment, about this other reference. This gives us the key not only to know how to interpret the oft-disputed passage of John 6, where Christ tells us we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have eternal life, but why he says so!

And that is probably the primary reason I am convinced of this interpretation. Not only because any one passage can be interpreted to support it, but because all the various and disparate passages only makes sense in light of each other in light of this general interpretation.
Conclusion

I don't want to be legalistic about this. This is about love, and about joy. You cannot image the joy that knowing my Lord with such intimacy has brought me, and it is out of love you for my brothers and sisters that I argue so vehemently. I enjoy the closest communion imaginable with my Lord, as I lean on his shoulder like John and touch his side like Thomas, as I enter the heavenly throne room to with our Lord among the angels. Through Word and Sacarment we are usher into heaven, God's vision for the future, where Christ awaits us.

And like the grapes brought back by Joshua and Caleb from the promised land, the Eucharist gives us a fortaste of the unity and blessings of Christ at the end of history, with the dead are reasoned and Christ returns to us, just as he returns to us now in Holy Communion- the remembrance of God's mighty deeds of the past made real in the present as we pilgrim on toward their future culmination.
 
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sunlover1

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Hi everyone. :wave: I would like to debate about whether Christ is literally present in communion or not. I personally believe that He is not. What do you believe and how do you come about believing this?
Not sure.
But don't think so.

I think it's safe to just go with what Jesus said to
do and to do this (receive communion)
in remembrance of Him.

I don't see where that breaks any Scripture.

Hope you figure things out PL.

I have a friend who's Catholic and yet
disagrees with most of their doctrine.
I am confused about this desire to be
labeled I guess. I've seen you go from Catholic
to non, to catholic to non, and now again to Catholic.
Just pray your hearing God and not listening to men.

God bless you in your journey to truth.
sunlover
 
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sunlover1

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Some EO think Mr. Graham is gettin' a little bit closer, belief wise ;)
Some also say BG is a heretic.
Either way, God's used him to
further His kingdom, so who cares
what 'label'.
It's all about God.
:thumbsup:
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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GCC - I don't think I can add anything to that. A very nice post indeed!
Danke. I was waiting for someone to respond!

Aria said:
That is great.

Professor Jaroslav Pelican, a prominent Lutheran, became Orthodox a few years before he died.

Pelikan.

Anyway, he was certainly a great inspiration to me. The quote from him in my signature was said on his deathbed.
 
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a_ntv

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I hope this is brought home ever further by a reading of Hebrew 9. There we learn that the old cultus was an immitation of the worship of God in the heavenly realms (the same heavenly worship we glimpse in Isaiah and Revelation- ever wonder why the chants of the angels are the same chants used in our liturgies?), but in the new era, through Christ, we actually participate and join in their worship. That is why in the liturgy we say "we join in their unending hymn," then sing, "Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might..." The new heavenly temple 'made without hands' has been sanctified by the blood of the lamb, and we enter it by what? Holy Communion.
TWO OBSERVATIONS:

1) Well, in this we actually partecipate we can find a base difference between the catholic and the lutheran/anglican view of the Eucharist.
I'm not refering here to the Real Presence: let's say for this post that we have the same understanding of the Real Presence using different languages.

The core problem is the sacrifical meaning of the Eucharist.
For us it is the very same single sacrifice of the Cross, and so we dont simply partecipate to the Last Supper but we actually partecipate to the sacrifice of the Cross.
How it is possibile? only in the liturgical time, that is an eschatological time, not an ordinary time. (the orthodox call the altar the burial of Christ!!)
The protestants differently say that the Mass is not a sacrifice, the altar simple a table, and the the Eucharist can simply give us the benefits of the Cross previously produced (a very mechanical view). On the other hands at Mass we offer to the Father the Body and the Blood of the Son because the Eucharist is the very one single sacrifice of the Cross: only through the sacrifice of the Cross made new for us on the altar we can hope mercy and live from the Father

2) please remember that there were different kinds of sacrifices at the Temple: mainly two: sacrifices of communion (improperly said sametime 'of thanksgiving') and sacrifices of espiation.

The lamb of Passoover (as the two daily olocausts) were sacrifices of Communion, not of Espiation.

Christ sacrifice is unique: it superseaded both the ones of communion and the one of espiation. (there is not a Chiristian equivalent to Kippur: Easter is both Passover and Kippur)
Perhaps (but it is a my idea) we can see that Jesus used for the Bread words more in line with a sacrifice of Communion, and for the Blood words more in line for the sacrifice of Espiation
 
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