At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread - Please Vote in Poll Thread

[Apex]

How the heck are we supposed to vote? Both options lead to nearly the same results...bad.

 

[MartinM]

Of course when you cannot get your point across in a polite and friendly manner, one can always resort to name calling!

Style over content was never my favourite approach.

 

[Debi1967]

Yes, in the Christian sections. In the open sections, there is no need for moderators to be ministers.

Lisa

There is no need in section for alcoholics and others to sometimes use God's Word to help them through crisis?

 

[Freodin]

I don't think moderating CF should be about enforcing the rules as much as ministering to the members here; to stand as representatives of CF, itself, as the Christian Ministry it purports to be.

Ah, so I think I have identified the point of our disagreement.

I think that moderating CF should ONLY be about enforcing the rules, to ensure that the important part can run smoothly. The mods are only the human backbone, on an equal level with the server and the software. The representatives of CF are its members.

 

[Loki]

Finally, mods are not here to minister but ADMINISTER. There is a difference.

This deserves repeating.

 

[MartinM]

Yes, in the Christian sections. In the open sections, there is no need for moderators to be ministers.

Lisa

It's worth bearing in mind that there is a distinction between 'ministering' and 'using a position of power to force preaching on members.' When mods try to minister to non-Christians as part of their moderation duties, it becomes a distinction without much substance.

 

[Freodin]

There is no need in section for alcoholics and others to sometimes use God's Word to help them through crisis?

Not necessarily by moderators.

It seems to me that many of you are looking at mods as to your priests. But do you really think the accountants, janitors, drivers and whatever of your church are all good christians?

 

[ScottBot]

I don't think moderating CF should be about enforcing the rules as much as ministering to the members here; to stand as representatives of CF, itself, as the Christian Ministry it purports to be.

I think there is a grand irony for the new person who comes here, sees the title ChristianForums, Uniting all Christians as One Body, then sees atheists and other avowed non-Christians as part of the body politic for the site. In the very back of my mind, I would be thinking "Huh?" When I was a moderator of Catholic ANswers Forums, you can bet your tuna sandwich that ALL of the moderators there were......prepare for this one, its a shocker........CATHOLIC *gasp, you don't say!!!*

Everyone and anyone is welcome to participate in the discussion there, but you could bet your bag of chips and kosher pickle that the site is moderated from a distinctly Catholic paradigm. Comments like "The Pope is the anti-Christ" and "The RCC is the harlot of Babylon" were not tolerated and were reasons for banishment from the site. YOu go their agreeing to play by there rules. It isn't persecution, its about a group deciding what its identity is. WHen I signed up for this gig, I was given the distinct impressing that this would be a site that was run from the Christian paradigm. I no longer have that impression.

 

[Debi1967]

I don't think Persecution happens here either, at least I don't think that's the right word for it. The internet is voluntary and CF mods can't follow us into our personal lives or control our assets, work options or family structure. There is a degree to which talk of persecution does imply levels of control that just aren't present here.

That said, "abuse" is a very appropriate term for much of what happens on the net. When you interact with people on a daily basis for years they become part of your life and they affect you even in ways you may not like. Relationships on the net are every bit as real as those in so called "real life." And precisely because there is often more history to them than we have in so called real life, they can be that much more intense.

When moderation is unfair it does impinge on real human relations and it does cause real pain to people. There is a sense in which one can always walk away. On some level it's not really the same as a government coming in and taking your stuff, but it it's a tough nut to swallow just the same.

And that is preciely why it was wise of Erwin to toss the identity games out of CFs overall policy. It doesn't hurt people any less to show up and find they've been tossed out of their congregation forum than it would in real life. It doesn't hurt any less to find people are making inquiries into your marriage online than it would to find someone doing that in your place of work. It may not qualify as Persecution in the usual sense of some political injustice, but such behavior is certainly abusive. And that is precisely the sort of behavior enabled by the old CF, the same CF many here want back.

As was stated by ANewDawn I don't think any of us want that old CF back but we don't want this one either so there has to be somewhere in the middle we can come to comprimise.

Take what was good from there add it to what is good from here and work with them both to make a better CF ....

 

[JimfromOhio]

There is no need in section for alcoholics and others to sometimes use God's Word to help them through crisis?

Depends... if we place them under Christian ministry that's one thing but if we place them under "open", that's another.

 

[ZACTAK]

All I am saying is that the administration of this site has never been completely Christian. It didn't hurt a thing. Second, if one truly wanted to be on staff, all one had to do was lie about their faith. Finally, mods are not here to minister but ADMINISTER. There is a difference.

Lisa

Not all members of a church leadership team are there to minister either... they are there to keep the church running. You are not going to have non-Christians in a church leadership team, just as you would not have a Christian in a non-Christian religious (or non-religious) leadership team. It seems to me Erwin's vision for this site is to be similar to a church... leaders of it should be Christian.

 

[intricatic]

I don't think Persecution happens here either, at least I don't think that's the right word for it. The internet is voluntary and CF mods can't follow us into our personal lives or control our assets, work options or family structure. There is a degree to which talk of persecution does imply levels of control that just aren't present here.

That said, "abuse" is a very appropriate term for much of what happens on the net. When you interact with people on a daily basis for years they become part of your life and they affect you even in ways you may not like. Relationships on the net are every bit as real as those in so called "real life." And precisely because there is often more history to them than we have in so called real life, they can be that much more intense.

When moderation is unfair it does impinge on real human relations and it does cause real pain to people. There is a sense in which one can always walk away. On some level it's not really the same as a government coming in and taking your stuff, but it it's a tough nut to swallow just the same.

And that is preciely why it was wise of Erwin to toss the identity games out of CFs overall policy. It doesn't hurt people any less to show up and find they've been tossed out of their congregation forum than it would in real life. It doesn't hurt any less to find people are making inquiries into your marriage online than it would to find someone doing that in your place of work. It may not qualify as Persecution in the usual sense of some political injustice, but such behavior is certainly abusive. And that is precisely the sort of behavior enabled by the old CF, the same CF many here want back.

There will be just as much abuse under this system as there was in the previous manifestation of CF, only now the membership will have a far more open opportunity to abuse their freedom. There needs to be a balance between the two, but the whole "identity games" that you're talking about are issues of doctrinal and congregational definition, and those will by no means go away just because of the new format. They're easier to minimize and work with if staff has some control over it, though, provided that staff is dedicated to ministry and not just politicking.

 

[CaDan]

Actually no it's not.

Not really. If that were all there were to it it wouldn't be tolerance -- it'd be Santa Claus.

"Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me?"

Jonah called. He says there's room in his booth and plenty of shade.

 

[djconklin]

I voted for #1 because as Christians we should be reaching out to seek and save that which is lost. What does need to be dealt with are those people who claim to be Christians, but deny the fundamentals.--oops! Just scrolled up and saw the mod posts!

 

[Debi1967]

Not necessarily by moderators.

It seems to me that many of you are looking at mods as to your priests. But do you really think the accountants, janitors, drivers and whatever of your church are all good christians?

I am not there to judge their Christianity I am there to practice Christianity with them and at times help them through whatever they may need.... I am sorry but those coming to a Christian site should somehow know that Christian advice is what they are going to get even by it's members ..... I think you sometimes forget that... Or you want us to

 

[Beastt]

Well... Mods are also humans like all of us... I agree that modding is not always immaculate and I know that often mods opinions/political views would interfere.... this is not the question. I belive the forums should stay Christian.... whatever mutitude dominations it would embrace!

I grant you that what I'm going to present is not the standard but it is something which happened and likely did so on more than one occasion; though there was only one in which I was involved.

This involved not just a moderator, but an Administrator. I had gone to a fairly new thread. It contained less than 4 full pages. I started with the first post and read through the entire thread. In doing so, I noted that there was really nothing out of the ordinary -- no specific or obvious rule violations. I noted a post to which I wished to respond and I did so, including a number of pieces of information which are completely verifiable, but also rather damaging to the heart of many Christian claims about Jesus.

I submitted my post and then did a final proofread. That's when I noticed that this Administrator had entered the thread. I had noted a second post which I also wanted to respond but when I did so, I received a message that the URL was bad.

It took a moment for me to figure out what had happened -- the Administrator had just blown away the whole thread. The thread was never closed for review or closed for any reason. It was just deleted in its entirety! So I started a thread in the now deleted portion of the forum designed to discuss staff policies and actions, (you know, the same policies and actions we're not allowed to know about under the old CF rules). I asked for further clarification on when deletions are allowed.

After receiving a few threats; "just in case" I was hinting at a specific moderator action; I was given a number of reasons that a staff member might delete an entire thread. The Administrator who was guilty of the action even came to that thread and openly stated that no such action had occurred. Then they changed to saying that sometimes threads are just too large to be cleaned up. When I pointed out that it was less than four full pages, it changed to the explanation that some threads are just so filled with violations that they can't be cleaned up.

Most of us have seen such claims before and have seen the threads closed permanently. But this one wasn't closed; it was deleted. I mentioned that I didn't see anything which appeared to be a violation of any forum rules and of course I was told that I wasn't qualified to know. I'm supposed to understand the rules so I don't violate them or so that I can report violations (which I won't do), but of course, when I read a thread and see no violations and an Administrator claims to have deleted the whole thread because it was so filled with violations that it couldn't be salvaged, I just don't know a violation when I see one, right?

Anyway, the point of this is that we don't need to revert to such a system. It's wrong, it mistreats people, it puts just a very few people in charge of everyone else and in charge of themselves and it promotes unethical actions on the part of those who begin to feel they're above the rules. I've had another Administrator tell me that a directive issued by Erwin himself didn't mean anything.

It's amazing to me that people can be against fascism, petrified by communism, and yet promote this same kind of dictatorial behavior when it comes to a web site.

 

[Lisa0315]

Not all members of a church leadership team are there to minister either... they are there to keep the church running. You are not going to have non-Christians in a church leadership team, just as you would not have a Christian in a non-Christian religious (or non-religious) leadership team. It seems to me Erwin's vision for this site is to be similar to a church... leaders of it should be Christian.

So, when the air conditioning goes out in your church, you make sure that when you hire a repairman, you make sure he is a Christian? What of the people that he may send onsite to actually do the job? Do you question their beliefs to make sure they line up with your particular denominational ones?

Again, there have been non-Christian staff here for awhile now. It did not hurt anyone.

Lisa

 

[JimfromOhio]

Biblically, administration is a spiritual gift which talks about various gifts in Spiritual Gifts are listed in Eph. 4:11; 1 Cor. 12:8-10; 1 Cor. 12:28-30; Rom. 12:6-8; and 1 Pet. 4:11. This involves any kind of ministries within the Christian community or Church. Some versions call this gift "governments," but it really refers to administrative rule or leadership within a Christian organization. These are elders, deacons and other similar titles who are stewarding Christian Organization's activities. The main job for the administrator/moderators is the "stewardship" of the Christian organization. Everything belongs to God, the administrators are to have a faithful stewardship of all that God has entrusted to them. Christian administrators are our spiritual stewardship who are looking for members spiritual needs and to look at their lives spiritually in from God's perspective.

 

[sparklecat]

I voted for #1 because as Christians we should be reaching out to seek and save that which is lost. What does need to be dealt with are those people who claim to be Christians, but deny the fundamentals.--oops! Just scrolled up and saw the mod posts!

Don't worry about it

 

[ZACTAK]

So, when the air conditioning goes out in your church, you make sure that when you hire a repairman, you make sure he is a Christian? What of the people that he may send onsite to actually do the job? Do you question their beliefs to make sure they line up with your particular denominational ones?

Again, there have been non-Christian staff here for awhile now. It did not hurt anyone.

Lisa

An air conditioning repair person is not a part of the leadership team. The air conditioning repairman will go about his business and only talk with those he has to, unless of course people come up to him and talk. However here at CF, staff are in close quarters with members and have to have some sort of relationship with them... if they have to send them a PM or whatever it may be. Very different.