Jewish Holocaust Denial agenda for dummies - the ONE basic fact, explained first

[BibleMadeMeDoIt]

Actually yes there was.

Each person was branded with a number. This number corresponded to a file. This file gave detailed information about each prisoner, including thier "crimes"

I have read in a book one that many were not numbered on their arms but were forced to memorize the number and if you did not or you forgot your number you were killed on the spot. There is another issue with the number system, not all the documents were available, remember much was destroyed, so NO we do not know who everyone was and were they were from.

 

[Steezie]

I have read in a book one that many were not numbered on their arms but were forced to memorize the number and if you did not or you forgot your number you were killed on the spot. There is another issue with the number system, not all the documents were available, remember much was destroyed, so NO we do not know who everyone was and were they were from.

The SS did destroy many records, but not all.

All inmantes of concentration camps had files and there were millions of people in the camps. That means millions of files, not all of which were destroyed.

I will admit that, especially towards the end of the war, not everyboddy had the ID numbers tattooed on them (Commonly called ka-tzetnik) but the vast majority of concentration camp prisoners were indentified in such a way.

Such as here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. There were also markings on the inmate's clothes to indicate who they were and why they were there. This is not a disputed event among any of the Holocaust survivors. Tattooing was a standard practice to ensure inmates could be identified even if they are un-able to speak, cannot speak German, or dead.

Again, this system was probably more lax towards the end of the war because of manpower shortages and a general sense of deparation by many in the German beaurocracy, but it was standard practice for most of the duration of the concentraion camps.

 

[RandytheAtheist]

Then perhaps you should consider rewording, because when you write that "Hitler was attempting to rescue his bankrupt country on serveral fronts that began with the Jewish backstabbing of the Versailles Treaty and mushroomed with the Jewish Bolshevik uprising that ultimately led to the creation of the USSR," it reads awfully lot as if you were trying to suggest this is indeed what Hitler did.
I think theres a misunderstanding here. I don't have to reword it. Thats what Hitler was trying to do - rescue his bankrupt country by eliminating the Treaty conscriptions and stop the growing Bolshevism. Step one in his plan was to reclaim Poland. Is there something missing from the world history books that you have privvy?

That Hitler hallusinated he was doing this means nothing in the real world and against real historical context as there was no Jewish conspiracy, no Jewish Bolshevik uprising (as it was an ideological movement of atheistic nature) and no "Jewish backstabbing of the Versailles Treaty." Versailles Treaty was a victor's treaty, to be sure, but its perceived unfairness had nothing to do with people of Jewish faith.
To you and me with hindsight 20/20 it didn't. But to Hitler in 1917 - it did.

On my part, I find it sad that you choose to use this argument, as it's the classic cliché used by the Holocaust nay-sayers. I wonder if you are aware of this?
I'm not a naysayer. I'm a devil's advocate. I am perfectly aware that the holocaust existed.

I suppose today we would say he outsourced the Holocaust.
We can only infer this by studying his propaganda. We have no known connection of his intentions beyond simple concentration and deportation.

Except, of course, there was no "mixed people" in Germany. If anything, there was full-blooded German people, seeing as the notion of "aryan race" is pure humbug. It's not a "quality in blood" or whatever and thus cannot be "mixed" or "tainted" or whatever.
There is no such thing as a "purebred" human. Each and every one of us is a conglomeration of nationalities that extend far down into our family trees.

In what capacity did these persons testify? Were they themselves accused of war crimes? Perhaps you could give me some pointers -- a name, the number of the trial, a quote, a secondary source -- and I'll look into it.
Well if thats how you're going to play - lets skip this part.

I repeat my earlier question. Was the "Jewishness" a sleeper cell in their blood that just made these German soldiers act accordingly -- even when they were unaware of their own "Jewishness"?
It didn't matter if they were Jewish or not. When it came to life and death situations, the Jewish people themselves "acted accordingly" and ratted out their own kinds. Mischlinge were no different. Serving their duty, obtaining Blood Certificates for themselves and their families, and going home to their Jewish wives and their Jewish children and waking up the next day to start it all over again. Most of the Nazi soldiers were Christian. They "acted accordingly" and remained Christian after the war. You don't need a sleeper cell to believe in gospels or propaganda. You just have to be naive.

Yes, because he needed the army.
No. Its because they were good men who were skilled at what they did. Hitler personally reviewed each of the tens of thousands of Blood Certificates submitted by Mischlinge. Many were denied until proven worthy.

Oh, the intent is there. The whole society at the time was saturated with the hallusination that the Jews were the root of all evil and were working to undermine the German society.
Not only the German society. It was a worldwide hallucination. In Poland, gentile residents routinely blackmailed Jewish hideouts and in one village named Jedwabne, a Polish pogrom was underway. And it wasn't confined to those areas. In fact, it originated from a completely unrelated source - Henry Ford - the American antisemite whom inspired Hitler and helped finance his war.

Hitler, of course, was wrong. There was no "international Jewish conspiracy", not even a communist Jewish conspiracy. Now, what does it say about Hitler and his "leadership" that he based his whole policy on false premises and took action accordingly, and took his country to war, again, based on a delusion?
Kind of like our "Weapons of Mass Destruction" leadership wouldn't you say? Indeed, history repeats itself in the most secluded ways. When President Bush announced on the news that Iraq harbored weapons of mass destruction - I believed it to be true. My friends believed it to be true. My co-workers believed it to be true. CNN and Fox News believed it to be true. TIME Magazine believed it to be true. America at large believed it to be true. Please don't imply that we are not great leaders because we took an initiative based on a delusion or a false premise. Only hindsight is 20/20. In any instance of pre-emptive activity, one must go with the best guess on available information. For Hitler, his information came from corporate America, the rising tide of worldwide antisemitism, the growing global concern over communism and the uncanny connections made in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion despite its false roots.

So how did these Jews (supposedly) know that there were soldiers in Wehrmacht who were perhaps 1/4 Jewish -- when these German soldiers never thought themselves as Jewish, were perhaps completely unaware of any Jewish connection in their family, were perhaps baptized, and came from families that were highly assimilated German families?
What are you talking about? Many of Hitler's prominent mischlinges were half Jewish, knew they were half Jewish, and had relatives whom half of them were Jewish. Are you saying that these half Jewish soldiers had NO IDEA that they were half Jewish???
kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html <<< So...like.. these guys didn't know they were half Jewish???

The story you are trying to pass here is that somehow these Jews looked at the faces of their fellow Germans and somehow saw that there was a Jewish ancestor somewhere there. Who knows, maybe I have an Orthodox ancestor, but it's not like it shows on my face. Isn't it a fact that the nazis had to go back to the archives and really dig to find their unsuspecting victims?
Are you kidding? Many of the Jews personally knew members of the SS because prior to them becomming SS - they were normal friends - normal neighbors - normal drinking buddies - normal co-workers at a steel mill - i dunno - normal classmates from the local schools who grew up together. Lets not get stupid. They knew who they were.

Wrong. There are the camps and corpses, of course, clear evidence of what actually took place in Hitler's Reich. I'm in no way trying to deny that evidence. How about you?
Camps and corpses are all that we have. Oh wait - we have two more items - the notes of Himmler and his party concocting the Final Solution as a proposal to Hitler and the late change in plans from building large labor camps in Russia into building extermination sites in occupied Europe after the Russian front collapsed.

Again, you make it sound as if you actually bought this myth about the imaginary "Jewish Bolsheviks" who were the root of it all.
Of course I didn't buy it. Hitler bought it. I have the power of hindsight 20/20.

Except those are not Hitler's choices; they are our choices. Hitler's choice was suicide, his own and the Third Reich's.
Incorrect. The punchcard computer was invented at Dehomag to automate German production. This was the world's first binary computer - predecessor to today's Pentiums and PowerPcs. The liberation of Imperialized States were the result of Hitler causing a catastrophic bankruptcy throughout Europe forcing the liquidation of these countries into free empires. Israel was created by
the mass exodus of Jews fleeing from Hitler's death camps and the worlds first jet plane took to the skies over Germany to aid the Luftwaffe albeit, too late to do much in history.

Cheers ~
Randy the Atheist

 

[Kalevalatar]

RandytheAtheist: I think theres a misunderstanding here. I don't have to reword it. Thats what Hitler was trying to do - rescue his bankrupt country by eliminating the Treaty conscriptions and stop the growing Bolshevism. Step one in his plan was to reclaim Poland. Is there something missing from the world history books that you have privvy?


Kalevalatar: Yes, I think we are (finally) in agreement. Hitler thought he tried to protect his country against the "International Jewry," but of course, that was a false premise because there was no "international Jewish" uprising. Does this sound about right?


I'm not a naysayer. I'm a devil's advocate. I am perfectly aware that the holocaust existed.


Good.

There is no such thing as a "purebred" human. Each and every one of us is a conglomeration of nationalities that extend far down into our family trees.

So when we use terms like "mischlinge" we should make clear it is a word of choice of the nazis and not part of our vocabulary, agreed?


Well if thats how you're going to play - lets skip this part.


It's a valid request to ask for a source. Please, I rather like to know and educate myself, so why don't you name one source, something to get me started. I'm perfectly happy to do my own digging from there.


Rigg, whom I suspect we're are both relying on, writes that although some German soldiers with Jewish backgrounds did participate in resistance, most did not in fear of calling attention to themselves and their families.


Not only the German society. It was a worldwide hallucination.


The gas chambers and industrialized nature of the extermination, though, were a uniquely nazi creation.


Kind of like our "Weapons of Mass Destruction" leadership wouldn't you say? Indeed, history repeats itself in the most secluded ways. When President Bush announced on the news that Iraq harbored weapons of mass destruction - I believed it to be true. My friends believed it to be true. My co-workers believed it to be true. CNN and Fox News believed it to be true. TIME Magazine believed it to be true. America at large believed it to be true. Please don't imply that we are not great leaders because we took an initiative based on a delusion or a false premise.

Except much of the rest of the world did not fall for the mass hysteria. Apart from the USA and Poland (and Kuwait and Marshall Islands?), less that 50% of citizens supported the war. The majority of countries/governments did not support the war and argued loudly against it.


What are you talking about? Many of Hitler's prominent mischlinges were half Jewish, knew they were half Jewish, and had relatives whom half of them were Jewish. Are you saying that these half Jewish soldiers had NO IDEA that they were half Jewish???
kansaspress.ku.edu/righitpix.html <<< So...like.. these guys didn't know they were half Jewish???


Have you read Rigg's study? That seems to be Rigg's assertion, that many had no idea. There were those who learned about their Jewish relatives only after the war.

Rigg himself has admitted the title "Jewish soldiers" is a bit misleading. They were not "Jewish soldiers": they were German soldiers, who had no Jewish identity. And, as they did not identify themselves as Jews it's unlikely they thought the "Jewish cause" was theirs -- as, per Rigg, they did not consider themselves Jewish at all.

None of the veterans Rigg interviewed did anything to sabotage their units. Some even asked him not to tell their families because even their wives and childred were still today unaware of any Jewish connection. Furthermore, Rigg argues that the veterans he interviewed all admitted being completely unaware of the systematic genocide, as was much of the rest of the world and good many Germans too. That's the "imagining the unimaginable."

Are you kidding? Many of the Jews personally knew members of the SS because prior to them becomming SS - they were normal friends - normal neighbors - normal drinking buddies - normal co-workers at a steel mill - i dunno - normal classmates from the local schools who grew up together. Lets not get stupid. They knew who they were.


I'm not kidding. I'm arguing that yes, they knew them as who they were, fellow Germans. Not as someone whose long-dead grandpa was a lapsed Jew.


Camps and corpses are all that we have. Oh wait - we have two more items - the notes of Himmler and his party concocting the Final Solution as a proposal to Hitler and the late change in plans from building large labor camps in Russia into building extermination sites in occupied Europe after the Russian front collapsed.


What, you're not going to argue that the final solution did not specifically mention the gas chambers?


Incorrect. The punchcard computer was invented at Dehomag to automate German production. This was the world's first binary computer - predecessor to today's Pentiums and PowerPcs. The liberation of Imperialized States were the result of Hitler causing a catastrophic bankruptcy throughout Europe forcing the liquidation of these countries into free empires. Israel was created by
the mass exodus of Jews fleeing from Hitler's death camps and the worlds first jet plane took to the skies over Germany to aid the Luftwaffe albeit, too late to do much in history.


Israel was created because the victors decided to create it. Ditto with the United Nations, the World Bank, and what else you had there. Those were not Hitler's undertakings.

Sorry about the hasty nature of my post as I'm in a bit of a hurry.

 

[RandytheAtheist]

Kalevalatar: Yes, I think we are (finally) in agreement. Hitler thought he tried to protect his country against the "International Jewry," but of course, that was a false premise because there was no "international Jewish" uprising. Does this sound about right?
Correct. There was none. The "Jewish Problem" only existed in the minds of Henry Ford, Martin Luther, Europe at large and other early influencers that experienced the Jews as a selfish, egotistical group whose mafia-like attitude focused on assimilation of a foreign city (any foreign city that would allow their presence) followed by a demand for political emancipation. Their riots and organized movements for independence in countries that was built by the sweat and tears of Gentiles managed to get them evicted from over 70 countries at least once every 21 years for the past 2000 years.

So when we use terms like "mischlinge" we should make clear it is a word of choice of the nazis and not part of our vocabulary, agreed?
I'll use the term "half-Jewish" if that will make things clearer.

It's a valid request to ask for a source. Please, I rather like to know and educate myself, so why don't you name one source, something to get me started. I'm perfectly happy to do my own digging from there.
Attempting to find the complete source of the Nuremburg script and citing the liber and page is too daunting of a task. In any case, this topic is somewhat sidetracking the issues here.

Rigg, whom I suspect we're are both relying on, writes that although some German soldiers with Jewish backgrounds did participate in resistance, most did not in fear of calling attention to themselves and their families.
Actually, most of them did not know of the acutal Holocaust because it was a last minute decision at a late point in the war. They knew of some casualties of war but the scale of which would later be revealed was unimaginable. Many Jews throughout Europe attempted to enlist with Hitler's armies not because they feared for life, but because they, along with most of the world, initially believed in Hitler's cause.

Except much of the rest of the world did not fall for the mass hysteria. Apart from the USA and Poland (and Kuwait and Marshall Islands?), less that 50% of citizens supported the war. The majority of countries/governments did not support the war and argued loudly against it.
Not because they didn't believe - it was because it detracted from the original goal - to get bin Laden.

Rigg himself has admitted the title "Jewish soldiers" is a bit misleading. They were not "Jewish soldiers": they were German soldiers, who had no Jewish identity. And, as they did not identify themselves as Jews it's unlikely they thought the "Jewish cause" was theirs -- as, per Rigg, they did not consider themselves Jewish at all.
Most considered themselves as converted Christians or Catholics. But Nazi Law is Nazi Law. If one of your parents or grandparents was Jewish, you were a mischlinge. I don't know of anyone who doesn't know their parents or grandparents identity other than orphans or adoptees.

I'm not kidding. I'm arguing that yes, they knew them as who they were, fellow Germans. Not as someone whose long-dead grandpa was a lapsed Jew.
We're talking about half-Jews here. Not 1/32 Jew.

What, you're not going to argue that the final solution did not specifically mention the gas chambers?
The Final Solution incorporates the design of the gas chambers proposed by the sadistic Himmler, not Hitler. Hitler wanted labor camps. Himmler desired torture.

Israel was created because the victors decided to create it. Ditto with the United Nations, the World Bank, and what else you had there. Those were not Hitler's undertakings.
Israel was forced into existence along with the UN, the WB and the WTO because of Hitler. The computer, the jet airplane complete with ejection seat, global television, guided missiles, electron microscope, atomic fission, data processing, magnetic tape recording, pesticides, the link between asbestos, smoking and lung cancer, invention of synthetic oils and fuels, the list is very long especially in the health sector where illegal human experiments produced many of today's technologies. More than 1,600 of these Nazi inventors were later secretly drafted into American labs under Operation Paperclip, Alsos, Lusty and TICOM, many of whom rose to great status like Wernher von Braun, the director of NASA's flight center . Hitler certainly changed the world forever and he did it almost overnight but it came with a very high price tag.

Cheers ~
Randy the Atheist

 

[Kalevalatar]

Correct. There was none. The "Jewish Problem" only existed in the minds of Henry Ford, Martin Luther, Europe at large.

"Finland has no Jewish problem." Finnish PM to Heinrich Himmler. Finland had only Finnish citizens, all equal members of the society. And, considering that other European nations, too, -- Albania, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Sweden, and/or their citizens went to great lengths to save their neighbours of Jewish faith, it seems to me the pronounced hatred is for the most part in your own head.

I'll use the term "half-Jewish" if that will make things clearer.

The usual practise is to make it clear the first time you use the word that it is not your own choice of word, if it's not. Quotation marks, a simple "a word the nazis used," would have gone a long way to establish an objective position instead of falling for the subject, so to speak.

It goes right back to the initial post of yours that I took issue with because it is drivel straight out of Mein Kampf and you did nothing to dissociate yourself from it. I see that you are still, several posts into the debate, perfectly happy to disseminate it. "Built by the sweat and tears of Gentiles" -- aw, I can almost see those lily white hands building their gingerbread houses morsel by morsel. It breaks my heart just to think about the amount of sweat and tears that went into building those countries of the good Gentiles, I swear it does.

Attempting to find the complete source of the Nuremburg script and citing the liber and page is too daunting of a task. In any case, this topic is somewhat sidetracking the issues here.

A daunting task you say? Well, I guess everything is subjective as it takes me all five seconds, depending how fast I click.

Then simply cite the source -- article, study, book --where you yourself obtained this info. I mean, you must have read about it somewhere, right, to get the idea that these veterans had testified in court and even corroborated with actual notes and minutes recovered by Allied forces. Your source obviously isn't Rigg, as his study doesn't corroborate your assertion, so I'm curious as to what else is out there.

You see, first you accuse me of "fabricating the accounts at Nuremburg" to "satisfy my own idea of history" when I point out that just because Fräulein Junge volunteers to retail something does not necessarily mean it's true, i.e. it could be true, some of it could be true, but not necessarily. When I ask you to expand so that I can look into the matter myself, you squirm and make excuses.

If you cannot provide one single source to back up your own claim and show me where did I supposedly "fabricate the accounts," then what do you think your audiance will think you are doing with those said accounts? Making them up, perhaps?

Many Jews throughout Europe attempted to enlist with Hitler's armies not because they feared for life, but because they, along with most of the world, initially believed in Hitler's cause.

And your source for these two underlines claims would be...? Or am I sidetracking again when I ask you to actually prove your peculiar interpretation of history?

Not because they didn't believe - it was because it detracted from the original goal - to get bin Laden.

How about you try this, for instance:

European Parliament resolution on the situation in Iraq

European Parliament
Texts Adopted by Parliament
Provisional Edition : 30/01/2003

3. Believes that breaches of UNSCR 1441 currently identified by the inspectors with regard to weapons of mass destruction do not justify military action and considers that any further steps must be taken by the Security Council after a full assessment of the situation;

6. Expresses its opposition to any unilateral military action and believes that a pre-emptive strike would not be in accordance with international law and the UN Charter and would lead to a deeper crisis involving other countries in the region; stresses that everything must be done to avoid military action;

9. Calls on the Council to make every effort to stop war in the Middle East; urges the Council Presidency and the High Representative for the CFSP, in this connection, to make clear to the US Administration that a solution to the Middle East conflict is the EU's top priority and that a strong and convincing international initiative for the speedy implementation of the road map endorsed by the Quartet (EU, US, UN and Russia) can no longer be delayed;

Nothing about bin Laden.

I imagine individual citizens around the world opposed the war for a multitude of reasons and I could speculate that Colin Powell's pathetic Power Point presentation at the UN of the "imminence" of Hussein "threat" convinced governments that the Bush administration had no case for the war. Then, of course, the rest of the world didn't have to put up with pundits foaming about the threat 24/7 and their leaders coming out three times a day to do scaremongering, so I symphatize.

You, however, seem very sure you *know* why the vast majority opposed the war. Just as you seem very sure that "the most of the world" initially believed in Hitler's cause. To establish this one would have to do an immensely extensive study and to my knowledge, no one has ever done this. Now, why would a non-Christian on the other side of the world care about "Hitler's cause" -- "to save Germany" or whatever -- one way or another? What was this "Hitler's cause" "most of the world" supposedly believed in? All you have is a capitalists out to make $$$ and a long dead religious figure whose world was nothing like nazi Germany.

Most considered themselves as converted Christians or Catholics.

Is this from Rigg's study?

I don't know of anyone who doesn't know their parents or grandparents identity other than orphans or adoptees.

Well, now you know one. I have no idea if my grandpa was an Orthodox. To find out I would have to go to the archives and/or try to track down someone who knew him before the war. As a matter of fact, I don't even have any idea if my grandma was actually raised Orthodox or had Orthodox background in her family before she emigrated here. I doubt even mother knows. It has never occured to me to ask about it until today and when you brought it up. I can definitely see that if and when one considers oneself as part of the mainstream majority, if you like, a question like that might never rise.

I don't know of anyone who doesn't know their parents or grandparents identity other than orphans or adoptees.

Read Rigg's study and perhaps you'll better understand the mentality of the Germans at the time.

We're talking about half-Jews here. Not 1/32 Jew.

I'm relying on Rigg. He is not talking about 1/32 "Jewish." He is talking about those supposedly "1/2" and "1/4" "Jewish" German soldiers who posed a problem for the nazis.

The Final Solution incorporates the design of the gas chambers proposed by the sadistic Himmler, not Hitler. Hitler wanted labor camps. Himmler desired torture.

Yet the final solution does not mention gas chambers, does it?

Israel was forced into existence along with the UN, the WB and the WTO because of Hitler.

The formation of the state of Israel was a choice and a decision taken by the victors. They could have chosen differently and let the Jewish refugees find their place on their own.

The SS did destroy many records, but not all.

All inmantes of concentration camps had files and there were millions of people in the camps. That means millions of files, not all of which were destroyed.

I will admit that, especially towards the end of the war, not everyboddy had the ID numbers tattooed on them (Commonly called ka-tzetnik) but the vast majority of concentration camp prisoners were indentified in such a way.

Such as here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. There were also markings on the inmate's clothes to indicate who they were and why they were there. This is not a disputed event among any of the Holocaust survivors. Tattooing was a standard practice to ensure inmates could be identified even if they are un-able to speak, cannot speak German, or dead.

Again, this system was probably more lax towards the end of the war because of manpower shortages and a general sense of deparation by many in the German beaurocracy, but it was standard practice for most of the duration of the concentraion camps.

Thanks for the contribution, Steezie.

 

[RandytheAtheist]

"Finland has no Jewish problem." Finnish PM to Heinrich Himmler. Finland had only Finnish citizens, all equal members of the society. And, considering that other European nations, too, -- Albania, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Sweden, and/or their citizens went to great lengths to save their neighbours of Jewish faith, it seems to me the pronounced hatred is for the most part in your own head.
Antisemitism in America at the turn of the century had already begun its advance towards large organized movements. Henry Ford, the prominent auto manufacturer was a known antisemite. His paper the Dearborn Independent was filled with bigotry towards the Jews and gained a relatively large following which included a particular individual from Germany. Ford was not alone. Charles Coughlin, America's first mega evangelist swooned nearly one third of the country with his weekly broadcasts against the rising problem of bolshevism. Despite Roosevelt's efforts to silence him, he continued to gain a massive following that reached in excess of some 40 million American listeners. The German American Federation was another movement that supported Hitler's cause. Its leader Fritz Kuhn is credited with turning Roosevelt's slogan the "New Deal" into the "Jew Deal". Mob lynchings of the Jews existed throughout all of 19th and early 20th century America and prompted the public re-emergence of the Klu Klux Klan with the heavily popularized Leo Frank trial. The lynching of Frank also led to the creation of the Anti Defamation League. Charles Lindbergh, prominent spokesman for the America First Committee was responsible for delaying Roosevelt's entry into the war for two years. He was considered to be a Nazi sympathizer and influenced many people to discard Roosevelt's propaganda against the New Germany. Future president Gerald Ford supported Lindbergh along with future Supreme Court Justice Potter Steward. Other prominent supporters of Lindbergh's policies were Sears Roebuck and Co., Vicks Corporation, Chicago Tribune, New York Daily News, Sinclair Lewis, E.E. Cummings, Mr. Walt Disney, actress Lillian Gish and Frank Lloyd Wright. Prior to the attack at Pearl Harbor, the American people at large overwhelmingly embraced anti-participation in the European war against Germany, Italy and Russia. This large anti-war view often caused race riots against the Jews like the Detroit riot of 1943.

1920's Poland had a famous slogan: "Polsak bez Zudow" meaning Poland without the Jews, was a dream to many of its citizens. Prior to WWII, the Jews in Poland were denied employment opportunities and later welcomed the invading Russian armies due to Russia's extraction of the Polish into Siberia. After Germany announced its anti Jew policies, the Polish citizens actively helped the Nazis by exposing the hideouts of the Jews who failed to pay them ransom and in a few instances, committed Jewish pogroms of their own. The formation of Polish underground movements such as the NSZ, which later participated in the Polish uprising against the Nazi occupation, was responsible for actively seeking out Jews hiding in the forests. After the war subsided, returning Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were massacred in the town of Kielce on July 4, 1946. Among the victims were former prisoners of concentration camps as well as Jewish soldiers and Russian Jews on their way to Palestine. The attack took place fourteen months after the end of World War II, well after the Germans were defeated and the Holocaust well known to the world. The brutality of the Kielce pogrom put an end to the hopes of many Jews that they would be able to resettle in Poland after the end of the Nazi occupation.

Albania didn't persecute the Jews because Albania had no Jews to persecute. Its population at the onset of WWII was approximately 33 families which could not be located due to their dispersion. Of this extremely small minority, Albania has admitted to deporting 12 Jews that it managed to find to the Gestapo - 11 of which died at Auschwitz. This information was revealed during an investigation to create the Holocaust Chronicle and is proof that Albanians actively sought the removal of the Jews. Albania's claim that they rescued 100% of Jewish refugees is not only false, its counter to their actions. The 21st SS Division Skanderbeg of Albania was a Waffen SS division of Himmler created in 1944 at the request of Albania Prime Minister Rexhep Mitrovica. Approximately 72% of its soliders were ethnic Albanians. Alongside the 21st SS was the 13th SS Waffen of Handschar, the largest SS Division and comprised of additional ethnic Albanians. Himmler also gave Mitrovica an additional militia of Albanians called the Second League of Prizren whom would later join the 21st Division and create a Mountain SS Division. These Albania divisions are responsible for some of the worst attrocities of the entire war and were known for their fierce brutality against the Serbs, Gypsies and Jews.

Denmark has an unusual history with the Jewish population. Prior to WWII, the Danish citizens contained animosity towards Jewish people largely stemming from Denmark's 19th century anti Jewish Hep! Hep! riots. However, with the onset of the war, Denmark became very uncooperative to the Nazis.

Like Albania, Norway did not have a Jewish problem because there were no Jews to persecute. Up until 1851, Jews were prohibited from entering Norway and those whom were found inside its borders were immediately deported. During WWII, Norway's civilian police actively helped the German occupiers seek out Jews. Of the 1,800 Norwegian Jews, only 559 remained after the war. At least 758 of them are known to have died in Auschwitz. Norway was also involved in a Jewish Confiscation Act which ordered all properties of any kind which belonged to a Jew be immediately taken over by the Norwegian State Treasury. This information was revealed through the Skarpnes Committee in 1999 which was established to rectify Jewish claims of stolen property.

Sweden. The peaceful Swedes of Europe had one of the longest running constitutions of antisemitism in the world. Up until 1951, Jewish settlement was restricted to Stockholm, Gotenborg and Norkoping and the holding of a political position was denied to anyone with Jewish ancestry. Post war sentiment of the Jewish conspiracy theories never abated Sweden's population and is currently at a historical high of some 35% believing that Jews should not hold offices of politcal power or financial holdings. Sweden is currently the largest anti-Israel community in the world and is lobbying for its eviction out of Palestinian lands. The situation has grown from bad to worse where Swedish Jews are once again concealing their identities as their grandparents did in the occupied territories.

A few years ago it became publicly announced that Finland had extradited some 3,000 Jewish refugees and Soviet Jewish soldiers to the Gestapo. Finland has admitted that it was done because they were prisoners of war however, the Jews whom were handed over were mostly barbers, carpenters, postal workers and other common civilian employees. Beginning in 1938, Finland actively closed its borders to all Jews fleeing from the war and turned away all vessels carrying refugess of Jewish ethnicity such as the the SS Adriane which was turned back to Stettin Germany. The announcement also included that Finland later organized a partnership between its national police force and Gestapo chief Heinrich Muller. The Finnish government is currently underway to appointing a historical commission and has since erected a national monument in their memory at Helsinki harbor which falsifies your initial claim that Finland had no Jewish problem.

So I don't buy your story that the world was perfectly in harmony with the Jewish issue during the rise of Bolshevist activity. In fact, the end of WWI appears to be the zenith of Jewphobia and antisemitism.

"Built by the sweat and tears of Gentiles" -- aw, I can almost see those lily white hands building their gingerbread houses morsel by morsel. It breaks my heart just to think about the amount of sweat and tears that went into building those countries of the good Gentiles, I swear it does.
You are Anti-Gentile!!!

A daunting task you say? Well, I guess everything is subjective as it takes me all five seconds, depending how fast I click.
Try it and see. There are over 1 million documents. Harvard.edu is the only place I know of that has started to digitize the material.

European Parliament resolution on the situation in Iraq
Shortly before the Iraq war began, 49 countries were joined in a "coalition of the willing" in favor of forcibly removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq, with some number of other countries expressing their support in private. The 49 countries named by the White House were Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Costa Rica, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, Latvia, Lithuania, Republic of Macedonia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Mongolia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Palau, Panama, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Rwanda, Singapore, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Tonga, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, and Uzbekistan. Of these, the following countries had an active or participant role, by providing either significant troops or political support: Australia, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom and United States. Four of these countries supplied combat forces directly participating in the invasion of Iraq: the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, and Poland. Other countries have provided logistical and intelligence support, chemical and biological response teams, overflight rights, humanitarian and reconstruction aid, and political support.

Well, now you know one. I have no idea if my grandpa was an Orthodox. To find out I would have to go to the archives and/or try to track down someone who knew him before the war. As a matter of fact, I don't even
have any idea if my grandma was actually raised Orthodox or had Orthodox background in her family before she emigrated here. I doubt even mother knows. It has never occured to me to ask about it until today and when you brought it up. I can definitely see that if and when one considers oneself as part of the mainstream majority, if you like, a question like that might never rise.
How disassociated is your family? It almost appears as if you were raised in an orphanage. I knew from a very early age that my father was Buddhist and my mother was Baptist. How could I NOT know? I was practically brainwashed into both of their ideologies. I knew for a fact that I was half Buddhist half Christian. Being a half Jew would be no different unless you are so disconnected from family gatherings during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. In Rigg's study, he points out that many mischlinge enlisted with falsified documents to hide their Jewish identity. Now, if they didn't know they were Jewish, why did they enlist pre-emptively with false identifications? Rigg's goes on to say that Hitler made numerous exemptions for mischlinge that were caught with false ID's. Again, if these guys didn't know they were Jewish - why the fake ID? Rigg's most puzzling finding was that these mischlinge, whom knew about the concentration camps, reported themselves into their proper camps upon returning home from service! So either I'm reading a totally different study by Rigg's or you have skipped entire chapters in his book. These guys knew they were Jewish. Your story that these guys had no knowledge of their Jewishness is false.

Yet the final solution does not mention gas chambers, does it?
Hitler's limo driver testified at Nuremburg that he witnessed Hitler studying blueprints for the gas chambers prepared by Himmler or by a member of the group that proposed the Final Solution. It was neither designed by Hitler nor prepared by him. It was merely being proposed to him which later caught his fancy. This is the last piece of evidence that shows Hitler being persuaded or even coerced into the deployment of the Final Solution.

The formation of the state of Israel was a choice and a decision taken by the victors. They could have chosen differently and let the Jewish refugees find their place on their own.
No one in their right minds would have "chosen differently" based on those kinds of circumstances. Israel was forced into existence. There was no choosing otherwise. Some say that Israel is not a legacy but a tarnish of Hitler's war - that it actually detracts from the positive things that developed post WWII. But I wouldn't know. I'm not a Palestinian.

Cheers ~
Randy the Atheist

 

[Kalevalatar]

A few years ago it became publicly announced that Finland had extradited some 3,000 Jewish refugees and Soviet Jewish soldiers to the Gestapo.

That would be 2,661 Soviet POWs exchanged for Finnish POW. Of those 2,661 Soviet prisoners, 74 would later found to be of Jewish faith and/or backround. These individuals were part of the POW exchange and not singled out because of their faith. After 1942 when news about the extermination camps began to emerge, Finland stopped extradicting prisoners of Jewish background, which speaks for the will to specifically protect these people, doesn't it?

In 1942, an "enterprising" Finnish individual, Arno Anthoni, on his own authority, deported 8 persons of Jewish faith and/or background and send them to Tallinn. As soon as the Finnish government and public found out, there was an outrage and that was the end of it. Anthoni was later charged with misconduct over those eight individuals as well as those nearly seventy other people whom he had illegally handed over to German authorities.

So there is a 2,918 gap in your memory -- for dramatic purposes, perhaps?

Just glancing at the rest of your post, your interpretation appears to be on a par with your liberal interpretation of Finnish history.

For instance:

Albania didn't persecute the Jews because Albania had no Jews to persecute.

Approximately 600 Jews were living in Albania at the eve of the WWII, the majority of them were refugees. When the wars broke out, more European Jews sought refuge in Albania from nazi barbarism. Jewish families also transited through Albania on their way to Palestine and were assisted by Albanians.

Denmark has an unusual history with the Jewish population. Prior to WWII, the Danish citizens contained animosity towards Jewish people largely stemming from Denmark's 19th century anti Jewish Hep! Hep! riots. However, with the onset of the war, Denmark became very uncooperative to the Nazis.

Denmark rescued almost all it's 8,000 or so citizens of Jewish faith. And where did the Danes hide their neighbours of Jewish faith? To Sweden. Swedish diplomats Raul Wallenberg and Per Anger working in Budapest saved tens of thousands of his Jewish neighbours; Sweden had a whole department there whose main task was the rescue of those persecuted by the nazis.

Prejudices, xenophobia, racism, antisemitism are unfortunate viruses even in today's world, but there is still a big leap from being prejudiced against your neighbours of faith different than yours to industrial scale extermination of those said neighbours. That islamophobia is a rather prominent and unfortunate ideology of today did not stop the western world from sending massive aid both to Iran and to, say, Indonesia, after the earthquake and tsunami.

Finland has admitted that it was done because they were prisoners of war however, the Jews whom were handed over were mostly barbers, carpenters, postal workers and other common civilian employees.

Barbers, carpenters, and postal workers, you say? And you know this...how exactly? You didn't even know the number of those Soviet POWs of Jewish backround, and now you purport to be in the know of their professions?

Would you be surprised if I told you the official Finnish inquiry into the matter doesn't mention the words "barber," "carpenter," or "postal worker"? Instead, the word "officer," for instance, is mentioned. Officer, now that is an army career, isn't it?

Beginning in 1938, Finland actively closed its borders to all Jews fleeing from the war and turned away all vessels carrying refugess of Jewish ethnicity such as the the SS Adriane which was turned back to Stettin Germany.

There were approximately 500 Jewish refugees from Cental Europe in Finland during the war, which was and is rather remarkable for a country that was allied with Germany against the Soviet Union. The Jewish congregations in Finland were tasked to take care of these refugees as well as of the Soviet POWs of Jewish faith.

The Finnish government is currently underway to appointing a historical commission and has since erected a national monument in their memory at Helsinki harbor which falsifies your initial claim that Finland had no Jewish problem.

Those were the words of the Finnish PM. And he, of course, was right. Finland had no "Jewish problem:" what Finland had was Finnish citizens and Finnish soldiers fighting against the Soviet Union regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

Shortly before the Iraq war began, 49 countries were joined in a "coalition of the willing" in favor of forcibly removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq, with some number of other countries expressing their support in private.

Like I said, the majority of countries/governments and world's citizens did not support the war. Even the vast majority of the citizens in countries whose governments initially made the decision to initiate and partake the carnage of choice opposed the war.

Courtesy by PEW
Poll released March 18, 2003

But then, being educated helps making intelligent choices unlike being brainwashed.

Try it and see. There are over 1 million documents. Harvard.edu is the only place I know of that has started to digitize the material.

As far as the USAian side of the academia goes, Yale also has Nuremberg material online, just so you know.

But obviously, you believe someone has combed through those documents when you claim that German veterans of Jewish background have testified in that court and corroborated with the notes and minutes recovered by Allied forces. Then of course, you refuse to name your source, so who knows.

How disassociated is your family?

My childhood family as well as my current extended family is very close. Trust me, I'm as far from an orphan as one can be.

You are Anti-Gentile!!!

.

 

[RandytheAtheist]

After 1942 when news about the extermination camps began to emerge, Finland stopped extradicting prisoners of Jewish background, which speaks for the will to specifically protect these people, doesn't it?
No it doesn't because their actions do not match their propaganda. Finland had over, 1,400 Finnish "volunteers" in the 5th SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking, 300 of whom were killed in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus. Finnish president Risto Ryti had an agreement with Nazi Germany before the invasion of the USSR that would allow Finland to send Finnish volunteers to Heinrich Himmler’s Waffen SS forces. From this agreement, Himmler formed a Finnish Waffen SS Volunteer Battalion called Nordost. This Finnish Battalion was attached to the Nordland Waffen SS Regiment of the 5th SS Division Wiking, one of the most brutal and fanatical Nazi SS Divisions of World War II, commanded by Felix Steiner. They are responsible for spearheading the front all the way to the Grozny Oil Fields in Chechnya - the deepest penetration into Russia by any single SS division.

By the end of the war, Danish, Hungarian, Dutch, Norwegian, Estonian, Finnish, French, Romanian, Spanish, Swedish, Swiss and British volunteers had either served in the division or been attached to it. After its formation in Germany, the division was attached to Steiner's SS Panzer Corps and was moved to occupied Croatia for training. Soon after, the SS Freiwilligen Legion Niederlande (Netherlands) was attached to the division and it began combat operations against Josip Tito's Partisans - the first armed anti-fascist unit in Europe. The Partisans, for those who want to know, had begun a successful guerrilla campaign and started liberating large chunks of occupied territory. These outbreaks provoked Germans to retaliate against civilians that resulted in mass murders - for each killed German soldier, 100 civilians were to be killed and for each wounded, 50.

So, it appears that these Nordic countries you tout have been two-facing the issues all along. Who knows how much Serbs and Jews were burned alive by those 1,400 "Finnish Volunteers". Aww., I can just see the country now, vyyying for Time Magazine's coveted Humanitarian Award while secretly slaughtering hundreds - or perhaps THOUSANDS of . . . . . . should I say . . . . "infidels"?

After WWII ended, Finland's president Ryti was arrested and sentenced to 10 years in prison where he later died in 1955. Now, for a country that you claim to be so "angelic", what is its leader doing in prison for war crimes?

Lets get something straight here. There is no one on this planet who can see the future of events. No one. Not Sweden, Not Britain, Not Finland, Not Denmark, Not Albania - Not Even the good ole USA. All of us were caught up in the fears of the new tide of Bolshevism. What was thought to be an honest war against the rising communism turned into an ugly fascist tornado. Thats all. Hitler guessed some things to be right - that communism would be a scourge of mankind and that the Bolshevik Party was powerful enough to deploy it. You with your hindsight 20/20 can preach from your soapbox all you want about the past mistakes. But try to predict the future of your own country's decisions - you'll fail miserably. Quickly - should we intervene in the Sudan or not?

In 1942, an "enterprising" Finnish individual, Arno Anthoni, on his own authority, deported 8 persons of Jewish faith and/or background and send them to Tallinn. As soon as the Finnish government and public found out, there was an outrage and that was the end of it. Anthoni was later charged with misconduct over those eight individuals as well as those nearly seventy other people whom he had illegally handed over to German authorities.
This is a good example of coercive propaganda. First of all, Anthoni was not an "enterprising" "individual". He was the head of the State Police. Furthermore, you believe that the flaunting of this message from this country makes it a saint? How much more coerced would you be had you been born in 1911 Germany as a German Chrisian listening to the speeches of Hitler? I wonder...... maybe . . . . Obergruppenfuhrer? Anyway lets take a closer look at your 1938 Finland.

By the summer of 1938, more and more Central European refugees were arriving in Finland, many of them by ship from Stettin (Suominen 31–32). Most of them did not identify themselves as refugees (Rautkallio, Holocaust 67). The Finnish authorities were alarmed by the growing numbers, and tightened regulations concerning entry into the country, especially after they found out the refugees’ return visas were invalid (Torvinen, Kadimah 121; Smolar 97). After some sixty refugees from Stettin on board the steamship Ariadne were denied entry, the number of arriving refugees decreased substantially (Suominen 33, 36). Altogether, only 500 Jewish refugees made it through (Torvinen, Kadimah 124). The main responsibility for taking care of the refugees fell on the Jewish congregations in Finland, and a refugee committee was established to deal with the matter (Torvinen, Pakolaiset 144–45). The state did not grant financial support (Torvinen, Kadimah 120; Karlsson in Suominen 44), so the congregations had to depend on themselves and aid from abroad, e.g. from Jewish organisations such as the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (Torvinen, Kadimah 122–23).

Now does this seem like a country thats just dying to lend a helping hand here?

The eight Jews who were sent to Tallinn on Board the S/S Hohenhörn, according to a statement by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, were people who had lost their asylum through their own actions (in Torvinen, Pakolaiset 216). Minister Horelli insisted they were “saboteurs, spies and robbers” and that the matter had nothing to do with race (Rautkallio, Holocaust 230). Huppert and Korn had criminal records in Finland; Huppert had broken rationing regulations, and Korn, who was a volunteer in the Winter War, had served a ten-month sentence in prison. In the State Police papers, criminal activities, such as embezzlement and forgery, are mentioned in connection with Kopelowsky and Georg Kollman as well. Szübilski had been suspected of being a spy (Rautkallio, Holocaust 231–33).

According to Anthoni, the deported were chosen by Horelli, who had consulted Minister of Foreign Affairs Rolf Witting and Erik Castrén (in Rautkallio, Holocaust 226).

Already after the deportation, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs had begun to make plans for the rest of the Jewish refugees to be moved to Sweden. This was something everyone agreed upon, including the refugees themselves, the Jewish congregations and the State Police, as well as the Social Democratic Party, which had been active in the case of the refugees from the very beginning. No words were spared by the Jewish congregation, the Social Democrats, and the committee to persuade Sweden to accept the refugees. Some of the most impatient refugees wrote highly exaggerated horror stories of Nazism and bad treatment in Finland to the USA. Finally in 1944, most of the Jewish refugees moved to Sweden. (Torvinen, Pakolaiset 255–56; Rautkallio, Holocaust 247–48, 250)

It doesn't appear to me that this Anthoni "individual" is acting "alone". It also doesn't appear that Finland and Sweden wished to help these guys any more than they had to. You know, by glancing at the rest of your post, your interpretation appears to be on par with your indoctrination of Nordic propaganda.

Approximately 600 Jews were living in Albania at the eve of the WWII, the majority of them were refugees.
Drama Queen: the Avalon Project at Yale has a 1939 census in Albania of 200 Jews. This number includes refugess so my original estimate of 33 families stand.

When the wars broke out, more European Jews sought refuge in Albania from nazi barbarism. Jewish families also transited through Albania on their way to Palestine and were assisted by Albanians.
Of course they did. They weren't gonna kick em out. Like I said, Albania didn't have a Jewish problem because they didn't have any Jews. Albanians couldn't connect the dots between Hitler's rhetoric and the Jewish people because they didn't experience the Jews like the rest of the world. There are reasons why countries like Sweden and Norway have prohibited Jews from settling within their borders. Assimilation followed by violent demand for segregation is a great way to get your people on the ban list. We can all see the results of their way of thought in present day Gaza. What a nice country that one is. Mmmmm. . . .I'd sure like to live there someday - with my grandchildren even!

Denmark rescued almost all it's 8,000 or so citizens of Jewish faith.
Freikorps Danmark: This was an 1,164 man reinforced battalion that served with considerable distinction in the Demjansk Pocket alongside the 3rd SS Division Totenkopf. It was fully sanctioned by the Danish government and volunteers were officially allowed to complete their service in this unit. It was not sponsored by Nazis or political radicals but was an official body of the Danish government formed during the onset of the war. This division would later join the Nordland SS division and cause heavy casualties amongst enemies and civilians.

And where did the Danes hide their neighbours of Jewish faith? To Sweden. Swedish diplomats Raul Wallenberg and Per Anger working in Budapest saved tens of thousands of his Jewish neighbours; Sweden had a whole department there whose main task was the rescue of those persecuted by the nazis.
Aww, I can just see those lily white Swedish hands reaching out to those poor Jewish refugees while trying to hold back their smirks and inner sneers as their country has one of the longest bans on Jewish settlement and political discrimination in the world. Also of note: the Swedes were one of the only foreign countries to have volunteer soldiers in the Waffen SS divisions throughout the entire war. Unlike the Nords and the Finns, Swedish volunteers did not have a specific division set up for them other than a title in the Kompanie 3 Panzergrenadier division called "Swedenzug". Its members were scattered throughout many different divisions like the 5th SS Panzer Wiking and the 11th SS Volunteer Armored Infantry due to their early involvement before Hitler came up with the idea of special foreign legions. Many of the Swedish volunteers rose to great ranks within the Waffen empire such as volunteer Hans Gosta Pehrsson from east Sweden who rose to SS Hauptsurmfuhrer in 1942 and Section Cheif in 1945.

Barbers, carpenters, and postal workers, you say? And you know this...how exactly? You didn't even know the number of those Soviet POWs of Jewish backround, and now you purport to be in the know of their professions? Would you be surprised if I told you the official Finnish inquiry into the matter doesn't mention the words "barber," "carpenter," or "postal worker"? Instead, the word "officer," for instance, is mentioned. Officer, now that is an army career, isn't it?
Well then you better let the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs know about it. In their March 2007 publication, they printed a searing report on "Finland's Tarnished Holocaust Record".

But obviously, you believe someone has combed through those documents when you claim that German veterans of Jewish background have testified in that court and corroborated with the notes and minutes recovered by Allied forces.
We don't need to have their testimonies. Lets take a look at Finland - your favorite trump card. Finnish Waffen SS Volunteer Battalion were comprised of many Finnish Jews whom fought in the war alongside the German Army. The field synagogue operated by the Finnish army was probably a unique phenomenon in Europe (Journal of Contemporary History, Vol.29, No.1 Jan.,1994) Now why would German Jews - whom had no idea that they were Jews like you said - operate a field synagogue? Hmmmmm ......

Nope! I don't buy your story that they didn't know about their "Jewishness".

My childhood family as well as my current extended family is very close. Trust me, I'm as far from an orphan as one can be.
I just did an experiment of my own and asked my circle of friends what denomination their parents and grandparents were. As I expected, all of them knew what their parents were and most of them knew what their grandparents were. I also asked a random selection of my employees and again, all of them knew what their parents were and some knew what their grandparents were. They knew irrespective of their closeness - even through divorce situations. I knew what my maternal grandparents were so I find it hard to believe that you are as far from an orphan as one can be.

Cheers ~
Randy the Atheist

 

[Kalevalatar]

No it doesn't because their actions do not match their propaganda. Finland had over, 1,400 Finnish "volunteers" in the 5th SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking, 300 of whom were killed in the Ukraine and in the Caucasus.

There is a reason why this unit is referred to as the "Finnish pawn battallion." It was political goodwill gesture in exchange of munitions and food stuff. Also, no reason for the "volunteers" to be in quotes as those men volunteered to be in that battalion, which explains why 20% of them were the IKL nazi-sympathizer types.

Who knows how much Serbs and Jews were burned alive by those 1,400 "Finnish Volunteers".

I guess that depends how many Serbs and Jews there were in the Caucasus where the battallion served.

Now, for a country that you claim to be so "angelic", what is its leader doing in prison for war crimes?

Because the Soviets won and Finns lost?

The Soviet Union wanted Ryti to bear the responsibility for the war on behalf of Finland. That's victor's justice in action. The Soviets also demanded that Finland as a nation paid heavy war reparations, which Finland did. Vae victis.

The "angelic" part, I imagine, would be the great Finnish myths of "Finland as driftwood" and "Finland as fighting alone," and no, I no longer subsrice to those myths. But it's true that when my generation grew up, those myths were alive and well and taught at schools. It's only recently that a new generation of historians has challenged those false images of "innocence" on all fronts. There are the fates of the Finnish kids seperated from their families and "evacuated" to Sweden; the fates of those with German fathers and Finnish mothers; the execution of Finnish deserters, the deportations and Ms. Sana's book, the whole hubris of "Greater Finland," the crucial and largely underrated role Germany and especially German airpower played in defending Finnish independence and democracy; and most recently, Finnish ties to fascist Italy. The Finnish society is in process of digesting all that.

The bottom line of Winter War and the Continuation War still remains. The Soviet Union tried and failed to annex Finland, twice. Unlike her southern neighbours, Finland retained her independence and democracy, and, I might add, managed to do it without sacrificing her Jewish citizens despite all the devil's deals that marked the Second World War.

Hitler guessed some things to be right - that communism would be a scourge of mankind and that the Bolshevik Party was powerful enough to deploy it.

And Hitler was wrong in persecuting the Jews, the Slavs, the other minorities as well political opponents.

Drama Queen: the Avalon Project at Yale has a 1939 census in Albania of 200 Jews. This number includes refugess so my original estimate of 33 families stand.

Drama Queen? Me? I'm not the one crying my eyes out over the sweat and tears of Gentiles.

You are not paying careful attention. Approximately 600 Jews were living in Albania at the eve of the WWII, the majority of them were refugees, says the Jewish virtual library's nuts and bolt. When the wars broke out [READ: post-1939 census), more European Jews sought refuge in Albania.

Jewish refugee families began to scatter throughout Albania and assimilate into society. Jewish children continued to attend school, but under false names and religions.

They would not be counted as "Jews." That's the general idea behind the "false names and religions," isn't it?

Of course they did. They weren't gonna kick em out. Like I said, Albania didn't have a Jewish problem because they didn't have any Jews. Albanians couldn't connect the dots between Hitler's rhetoric and the Jewish people because they didn't experience the Jews like the rest of the world. There are reasons why countries like Sweden and Norway have prohibited Jews from settling within their borders. Assimilation followed by violent demand for segregation is a great way to get your people on the ban list. We can all see the results of their way of thought in present day Gaza. What a nice country that one is. Mmmmm. . . .I'd sure like to live there someday - with my grandchildren even!

So, long rant made short: You would prefer to raise your grandchildren in an environment where people of varying backgrounds were segregated from each other for the sake of "niceness"?

Freikorps Danmark: This was an 1,164 man reinforced battalion that served with considerable distinction in the Demjansk Pocket alongside the 3rd SS Division Totenkopf.

I repeat. The Danes' collective civil disobediance saved almost all their fellow citizens of Jewish background.

Well then you better let the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs know about it. In their March 2007 publication, they printed a searing report on "Finland's Tarnished Holocaust Record".

"Searing" report like this?

When the Finns fought together with the Germans, the latter did not touch the Jews who served in the Finnish army. There was an unwritten agreement about that. The Germans knew that in the Scandinavian countries, when one is a citizen, one belongs. The Finns treated the Jews who were of their nationality equally during the war. The Jewish soldiers found themselves in a position where they were fighting on the side of Germany, even if they did not fight together with the Germans.

Hence: what Finland had was Finnish citizens and Finnish soldiers fighting against the Soviet Union regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

The facts speak for themselves. After 1942 when news about the scale of nazi extermination camps began to emerge, Finland specifically stopped extradicting POWs with Jewish background, making excuses and citing "delays" when German officials pressed the issue.

http://yad-vashem.org.il/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 5852.pdf

We don't need to have their testimonies.

Is that so? If you accuse me of "fabricating the accounts at Nuremburg" to "satisfy my own idea of history" when I point out that just because Fräulein Junge volunteers to retail something does not necessarily mean it's true, and then you cite those said "testimonies" by German veterans of Jewish background as a proof, yes, we do need those testimonies to see where we stand.

I quick searched through a patch of testimonies by "common" German Soldiers, if you will. None of them claimed Jewish inheritance and there was nothing of the sort that we're talking about here. Does not mean those testimonies don't exist. But as long as you refuse to cite your source or give pointers, I have no way of verifying that one way or another.

The field synagogue operated by the Finnish army was probably a unique phenomenon in Europe (Journal of Contemporary History, Vol.29, No.1 Jan.,1994) Now why would German Jews - whom had no idea that they were Jews like you said - operate a field synagogue? Hmmmmm ......

Um, because they were not "German Jews" but Finnish citizen soldiers, fighting against the Soviet Union? Just so happened they were practising Jews instead of Christians, hence the unique field synagogue. You didn't realize there were (and are) practising Jews in the Finnish Defence Forces? To say I'm not surprised would be a little prickly from me but, oh well, I'm not terribly surprised.

And please, make no mistake, I commend your willingness to rout out this info. But it's no use if you find an old picture of a tent synagogue with German soldiers standing beside it and do not understand what you are looking at.

Allow me to draw it for you. The field synagogue you're referring to was erected and "operated" by the Finns for the Finns, no German involvement (a bit like the Finnish field saunas). If you have actually seen the "classic" (one and only, I believe) old photograph of it, with the German soldiers, the German soldiers are there because it was a curiosity and they wanted to be photographed with it.

A few of these Finnish soldiers of Jewish faith were actually "awarded" the German Iron Cross, an "honour" they refused.

Nope! I don't buy your story that they didn't know about their "Jewishness".

That would be Rigg's conclusion, not mine. I'm relying on Rigg's study as I have not studied the subject myself and have certainly not done those extensive interviews among the German veterans.

You're confusing two different subjects here. First, there is the Finnish field synagogue and the practising Jews in the Finnish Defence Forces, perfectly understandable as Finland did not subscribe to the nazis' anti-Jewish garbage but treated all her citizens equal.

And then there are the German soldiers in the Wehrmacht, many of whom, according to Rigg's study, did not have a Jewish identity despite being labelled as Jews in the nazi insanity.

I knew what my maternal grandparents were so I find it hard to believe that you are as far from an orphan as one can be.

But that's the way it is. My grandpas were never with us as both of them perished at the front. I imagine that for the question to arrise in the first place, I would've had to feel myself somehow outsider, not quite belonging, if you will, unsure of my identity. Never felt that. Have a strong Christian identity, as does my family. Even now that the question is here, I don't feel interested enough to pursue it. Doesn't change a thing, one way or another. I am what I am and possible Orthodox roots somewhere down the line won't be enough to give me an Orthodox identity.